Diablo® III

0dog: big bang evolution for 1.08

very impressive kills. I know I wont be able to match those times since I have a hard time surviving ghom with my current equipment. However i'll have my friend take a crack at it and see if he can come close. I doubt even he can beat the time because your gear basically transcend both traditional and the big bang builds considering you have 44% crit chance and 298% crit dmg. the only difference really comes down to your APS vs his int multiplier. since both are using provoke the pack, that puts it on more of a equal footing. however I will see about putting up a good show and try to at least come close to the kill time. as i mentioned, he's studying/taking his finals so wont have time to make a vid. so it will be sometime next week that the vid will be up.

curious... I didn't think twitch take their vid down... kind of a bummer considering old vids are residual revenue streams for people. I have done plenty of searches trying to locate your vids throughout my 0dog journey so I can learn from it. And the only one I've ever found was that 6 hr vid which you pretty much killed ubers over and over :D anyway, I'll see about trying to get that vid up ASAP.

PS. in the mean time. I DID find a frenzied shrine in one of my CotA runs while trying to learn more about the open broadcaster software and happened to have it recorded. the quality is crappy, however the numbers are clearly visible. it sorta demonstrates the "speed difference" between a 1.67 APS and a 2.02 APS. i guess it's a cheap way of showing the difference between the 2 builds w/o spending billions on new gear :D

anyway here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOLmRUK1oN4

what I want to point out is that even in this short solo vid, you can already see traces of computer lag when going above 2.0 APS. it's barely noticeable in solo and the packs seen here are tiny compared to what you'd see in a group. however, when you run this in a full group, that computer lag really kicks in. I have had my machine dropped down to 5FPS during a group run with a large pack. at that low of a frame rate, it doesn't really matter if you had 1APS or 3APS your survivability is at the mercy of the game mechanics.
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very impressive kills. I know I wont be able to match those times since I have a hard time surviving ghom with my current equipment. However i'll have my friend take a crack at it and see if he can come close. I doubt even he can beat the time because your gear basically transcend both traditional and the big bang builds considering you have 44% crit chance and 298% crit dmg. the only difference really comes down to your APS vs his int multiplier. since both are using provoke the pack, that puts it on more of a equal footing. however I will see about putting up a good show and try to at least come close to the kill time. as i mentioned, he's studying/taking his finals so wont have time to make a vid. so it will be sometime next week that the vid will be up.

curious... I didn't think twitch take their vid down... kind of a bummer considering old vids are residual revenue streams for people. I have done plenty of searches trying to locate your vids throughout my 0dog journey so I can learn from it. And the only one I've ever found was that 6 hr vid which you pretty much killed ubers over and over :D anyway, I'll see about trying to get that vid up ASAP.

PS. in the mean time. I DID find a frenzied shrine in one of my CotA runs while trying to learn more about the open broadcaster software and happened to have it recorded. the quality is crappy, however the numbers are clearly visible. it sorta demonstrates the "speed difference" between a 1.67 APS and a 2.02 APS. i guess it's a cheap way of showing the difference between the 2 builds w/o spending billions on new gear :D

anyway here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOLmRUK1oN4

what I want to point out is that even in this short solo vid, you can already see traces of computer lag when going above 2.0 APS. it's barely noticeable in solo and the packs seen here are tiny compared to what you'd see in a group. however, when you run this in a full group, that computer lag really kicks in. I have had my machine dropped down to 5FPS during a group run with a large pack. at that low of a frame rate, it doesn't really matter if you had 1APS or 3APS your survivability is at the mercy of the game mechanics.


Im not interested in what your friend can do. If you are not going to do the tests as I have laid out for u to prove one way or the other about your build then I'm not going to waste any more time with this thread, it's like you seem to be just ignoring me.

Once again let me spell it out for you. In order to get a clear accurate test to compare a low attack speed build versus a high attack speed build u will need to come up with two builds that roughly have the same sheet dps. Then you need to run both those builds against Ghom to see which is able to kill Ghom faster. If both builds are roughly within 2-3 secs of each other then players are still better served by going with a high attack speed build but if your low attack speed build can beat a high attack speed build by 5 secs or more then it *might* be a build that some players can use to get more dps provided they dont mind dying excessively.

If you are not going to do this test then I think most of us including myself are done with this thread.
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well... you do set the bar pretty high since the quality of your gear pretty much transcend the big bang evolution build as well as the traditional build. with my current gear, I can NOT surviving ghom solo without kiting. and that is not what a "time trial" is about. my friend, who is ALSO using the big bang build, might be able to survive ghom. that's why I need him to do the vid. if I did the vid i'd simply die over and over again... which would make a boring vid to watch:D

I'd ask alittle latitude on this trial because this time trial pretty much pit THIS build against a worst case scenario. the build IS designed for grouping. tradeoffs are made from survivability to DPS and group synergy. we are looking at a baseline that is set by THE recognized master of 0dog with perhaps the best equipment for the traditional build possible. so I would think a few days till my friend finishes his finals exams is not alot to ask.

as far as collecting another set of 0dog gear based on the traditional build, that is simply unrealistic since I have all of 15mil gold sitting in the bank atm. :D I'm not a big believer in RMAH so I'd have to take a pass on that suggestion. my friend has better gear, and he may be capable of surviving a ghom time trial. that's why I'm waiting for him to finish his finals.

so... the only thing I CAN say is a vid USING the big bang evolution build SOLOING ghom WILL be provided. but it will be when my friend finishes his finals exams because RL is more important then game... I believe his last exam is on Wednesday, so i should have a vid up before Friday of next week.

If you are unable to wait that long... I'm sorry. but I have been upfront and truthful with every aspect of this build. AFAIK I was the one who pointed out all of the weakness of this build over the course of this thread. As far as vids, if you haven't suggested the open broadcaster software, it's likely that I STILL wouldn't have a vid up about this build. I have given the circumstances of why this vid is going to be delayed and I believe I have earned alittle faith considering how upfront I have been with the build throughout the thread...
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Im not interested in what your friend can do. If you are not going to do the tests as I have laid out for u to prove one way or the other about your build then I'm not going to waste any more time with this thread, it's like you seem to be just ignoring me.

Once again let me spell it out for you. In order to get a clear accurate test to compare a low attack speed build versus a high attack speed build u will need to come up with two builds that roughly have the same sheet dps. Then you need to run both those builds against Ghom to see which is able to kill Ghom faster. If both builds are roughly within 2-3 secs of each other then players are still better served by going with a high attack speed build but if your low attack speed build can beat a high attack speed build by 5 secs or more then it *might* be a build that some players can use to get more dps provided they dont mind dying excessively.

If you are not going to do this test then I think most of us including myself are done with this thread.


Yeah same. Many of the things I have brought up have either been ignored or have been given the excuse that it's one of the weaknesses of the build. Even if he did beat your Ghom time (or any other decently geared ZD out there) by 10 sec, I still wouldn't consider it an "evolution". Better EDPS? Sure, but what about the other factors?

All I've learned from this thread is that this spec revolves around diminishing returns of increased APS caused by graphics lag. Imo, this is a very weak basis for a build because not everyone has this problem. What happens when a low AS ZD player gets a computer part upgrade and finds that his machine now rarely experiences graphics lag? Idk, basing a build on that just doesn't make sense to me. I'd also like to add that without this "diminishing returns", testing and playing around with 3+APS is definitely where it's at and if there is a way to get my gear stats that high , I'll find a way how.

OP, you speak much about trade offs, but have yet to actually clearly discuss the benefits of this spec vs what players will be giving up if they opted for a low APS spec. Will losing faster dps rate, faster globe windup/spawn, faster lifesteal, all be worth the gains of having either higher int multiplier, higher vit, ar or higher armor? There is a real diminishing returns to the ZD build and it's not APS. It's the EHP/Life return ratio. Everyone pretty much knows that one of the basic 101s of ZD is it's a melee/tank build. With that said, they kind of need to stay alive most of the time. So a lot of ZD have decent EHP. There are diminishing returns with this that are dependent on each individual ZD gear stats. There is no point in having high EHP if you can't keep it topped off, but there is also no need to keep topping off a health orb that is consistently around 95-100% full. Having low APS means that instead of your WD teetering at 85-95% full, it's life is teetering at 10-60% which accounts for the very low survivability of the build. If there are ways to work around the disadvantages of giving up AS, I suggest adding it to the guide.

What irks me about this are the claims that were made long before this guide was even posted. Advice was given to players based on those claims WITHOUT the mention of the drawbacks, not until this thread got going. I hope that those players didn't hit a wall if they went with this spec and realize that this build is only good for very SPECIFIC game scenarios. Many pros to be proven, lots of cons to be answered.

I am just speaking from my own experiences with this spec to help other future ZD players out there and reduce the misinformation and I really think you are misleading a lot of players by making claims that giving up AS is just as beneficial if not more vs keeping a high AS. Can the spec work on MP10? Sure, I am not arguing that, but come on, group play only? Preferably with a cm wiz? Slow globe windup? Slow LS? More deaths? No bosses? So a viable route instead of AS spec? No. Outperform it? With all the drawbacks, far from it. Can the spec work? It sure can, but only on specific game scenarios which yes, will occur more often in the next patch. Idk, I guess I'd rather have a WD that is ready to go whenever than have one that can't go outside to play because it's too cold.

I am very frustrated with this this thread, but I do give you kudos tho. I am one of the few people that I know of that have tried this spec so hell yeah for thinking outside the box. So I suggest have at it and keep working on it, but please be very detailed about the cons of the build on the guide. I can see the build being a powehouse like if on a future new leg patch release, they release a new leg that has "chance to drop health globe on critical hits" then that would fix some of the issues with no high AS and STILL keep the high int multiplier and all that. Anyway, gl to you.

@heyguyslol

Tried hitting you up on the MH servers yesterday.
Edited by LordAmsa#1453 on 5/4/2013 8:10 PM PDT
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[quote]
@heyguyslol

Tried hitting you up on the MH servers yesterday.


Yeah I was on but when I open up the Friends window I didnt see anyway to add friends by id name but Ill be on again for a few this afternoon and evening.
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Yeah same. Many of the things I have brought up have either been ignored or have been given the excuse that it's one of the weaknesses of the build. Even if he did beat your Ghom time (or any other decently geared ZD out there) by 10 sec, I still wouldn't consider it an "evolution". Better EDPS? Sure, but what about the other factors?


been testing out marvel heroes over the weekend so haven't checked back here. sorry for the delay responding.

well. I'm sorry you feel that way. as for beating heyguyslol's times.... you know for a fact that it is impossible for anyone using ANY kind of 0dog variation to beat him by a significant margin (let along 10 seconds) considering the quality of gear he is using. :D so... if that's what you are waiting for.... I'm sorry you've wasted your time.

As clearly stated in the guide, if someone is already godly dressed, (like heyguyslol which was named specifically in guide :D ) they are essentially already using BOTH the big bang build AND the traditional build. Because as the quality of gear goes up, ALL stats are optimized and THIS build simply prioritize on int, crit chance, crit damage over haste... heyguyslol's equipment are NOT lacking in those stats. That's why in one of my replies, I mentioned the eventuality of the big bang build will ALSO takes you down the haste path because after you have already maximized your int, crit chance, crit dmg, there is only 1 other way to improve your DPS output, and that is through haste...

In fact heyguyslol's gear exceeds EVERYONE of the requirement's I have listed for this guide. the ONLY other difference is this guide advocate the usage of provoke the pack whereas the traditional guide advocate the usage of for the master on MP8 and above (i believe that is what heyguyslol mentioned in one of his post regarding updating the traditional guide to)

in the ghom time trial, heyguyslol DID use provoke the pack.(the ONLY active skill difference between the traditional guide and this guide) and as he has mentioned in a different post, it's NOT recommended for the traditional guide considering it's a MP10. "lesser" dressed people following the traditional guide may run into survival issues using provoke the pack in MP10, however since his gear transcends both guides he has enough survivability that it allows him to use provoke the pack with plenty of survivability to spare.

I'm not sure why you are expecting miracles from this. it evolved from the traditional guide with almost the same skill set (only difference being provoke the pack vs for the master) it is optimized for group play and prioritize crit dmg/crit chance/int over haste. it made sacrifices in haste/survivability for additional DPS because in a group situation, extra haste can not be properly exploited due to game mechanics/optimization issues. Expecting a build optimized for group play to beat someone in a solo time trial doesn't quite make sense.. Especially considering heyguyslol exceeds every criteria set forth by the guide and is using provoke the pack also...

if you doubt the logic behind game optimization issues for 0dog, feel free to post a vid of your own in a full group with Control-R enabled so you can see the FPS on the vid. Try going through act3 with a perma freeze wiz and a monk in the party. I'm willing to bet that somewhere along the way you'll see your frame rate dropping down to single digits if you run into a large pack.(25 mobs or more) a large pack of scorpions with some adds and an elite pack or 2 popping ground effects should demonstrate the lag issue adequately.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but heyguyslol can be considered one of THE best dressed toons on the server for THIS build also :D he exceed the APS requirement by a LARGE margin, which he may or my not be able to fully exploit that advantage in a group situation given current game optimization issues. however he does exceed ALL other requirements for this build as well... he IS capable of running provoke the pack with his gear and it would be far more beneficial for him TO run provoke the pack in a group environment. You yourself have used provoke the pack so you understand the advantage of that aspect of this build when you have sufficient gear to exploit that advantage.

anyway... as mentioned before, I will try to get that ghom vid up before friday. I'm sorry if I wasted your time if you were expecting something that will beat heyguyslol's time... especially something as large as 10 seconds :D my goal was to match it, or at least come close. with the difference in gear, it should at least prove to be viable considering this build was optimized for grouping and not soloing. this will at least show that soloing is possible/viable with the build.
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well... due to recent events.... D3 no longer holds any interest for my friends and I. I have to apologize for breaking the promise of bringing you that ghom vid as it disgusts us to even log into the game now that a roll back is no longer an issue. a year's worth of in game wealth building wiped out in a single day is abit much for us to take. we will be liquidating our remaining assets and moving on to greener pasture.

for those who may still be interested in the game. our testing indicated that bats is a natural fit for 0dog build. so instead of equipping jinx or mass confusion in the 0dog build, you would simply replace it with bats.

as for the ghom time trial. you would start by getting soul harvest outside the room, go into ghom's room. run to the corner so you will essentially be corner tanking ghom. the purpose of this is to ensure all 4 dogs hit ghom as he wont be moving around much if you corner tank him. start blowing up dogs till you attained gruesome feast then drop BBV + mass confusion then start your bats, ghom will die before you run out of mana on bats. due to the nature of the time trial, jaunt was replaced with mass confusion and jinx was replaced with bats.

in a normal MP10 run, you retain jaunt and only replace jinx with bats. you will still need dogs to spool up your gruesome feast but bats will do the rest once you've attained gruesome feast. in a boss fight, you would alternate dogs and bats depending on the situation. the weakness of bats is mobility/mana so dogs are there to fill in the gaps.

anyway. take these advise as you will, change it as you see fit and make it your own. enjoy the game if you still can and have fun in any game you decide to play. I will likely be taking a long break from blizzard. i may still lurk but doubt I will be playing much anymore.

so long. have fun.

/end QQ
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Judging from what I've read I believe blizzard would only roll back to the time just prior to the launch of p1.0.8, and since they caught the dupe very early very few ppl would actually loose out on anything.

But they have not come to a decision yet on whether they plan to do a roll back. Fortunately for me I haven't been playing so I wont loose anything. I've noticed that when ever blizzard launches a new patch there's always some problem discovered shortly after.

But I have to agree this game is really loosing my interests, I honestly think that the itemization patch is whats truly going to make or break this game. If the patch turns out good then players will continue to play and old ones will return. If its bad only blizzard fan boy's and ignorant players will continue to play D3, the smart players will move on to other games and most likely games not made by blizzard.
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on a side note,

OPEN BETA AGAIN this weekend for marvel heroes :D guess they heard about this disaster and decided to cash in on the karma blizzard has been building up for the last few years :D

at least this time I'll be playing the REAL diablo instead of this RMAH simulator :D
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A question, would you prefer ice climbers over zuni's for a zero dog?
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Hi Avila,

if zuni or ice depends on your wishes.

With zuni boots you do more dmg and ice climbers are better to get more life and resits.

I Took the zuni boots to get more dmg.

Greetz Mopitz

ps. profile is my bat-wd in testing phase
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This seems to be alot of text to try to justify to us that low AS is ok for 0 dog builds

I would caution any player reading this post that it is proven over and over again that high AS is needed for survivabilty and damage for this kind of build.

The O dog build has already been tested and tweaked as much as its going to be at this point

Of course slight variation of skills you want to use is up to the individual player, but the core skill set of 0 dog remains in place..

To me videos prove nothing to me, as the edit feature on them is so easily used to show inflated results of game play.
Edited by REAPER666#1553 on 5/10/2013 8:03 AM PDT
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uhm... people still playing this game? :D it's marvel heroes open beta weekend :D

anyway. like i said. take the build for what you will the only thing i will say is neither of the vids i put up were edited in anyway. else i would have at least chopped off that opening black screen between the time i started recording and alt tabbing into D3. (yah that's why there is a few seconds of black screen in the beginning of the vids) essentially that's just raw footage.

as for choices between ice climbers and zuni. I personally prefer ice climbers because i see bigger yellow numbers with all that int on the climber. as mentioned, intellect is multiplied by gruesome feast so trade offs in int must take that into consideration. the ONLY pieces "required" for this build are listed in the guide. essentially the 3 piece 0dog set. all other requirements are more based on stats you should achieve rather then what piece of gear you need to get.

this build evolved from the traditional 0dog build. the only thing different is shifting the primary focus from APS to bigger crits. so if you don't like it. change it to fit your needs. there are very few things mentioned in this build that you can't change. the ONLY thing you cant change for this build is going outside of a 3 piece set. a 4 piece or 5 piece set simply don't have enough dps/stats to keep you alive from the 3% life steal.

anyway. have fun... or come check out marvel heroes :D
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well after taking a break from D3 after the AH fiasco, my friend has decided not quitting D3 and has given me a vid to post. so.. here it is

http://youtu.be/yVgGI9QDTGM
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This seems to be alot of text to try to justify to us that low AS is ok for 0 dog builds

I would caution any player reading this post that it is proven over and over again that high AS is needed for survivabilty and damage for this kind of build.

The O dog build has already been tested and tweaked as much as its going to be at this point

Of course slight variation of skills you want to use is up to the individual player, but the core skill set of 0 dog remains in place..

To me videos prove nothing to me, as the edit feature on them is so easily used to show inflated results of game play.


/agree

could not have said it better myself.
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I swapped Hex Jinx for CoB. It was fun and really powerful, but it is an active skill that cannot occur at the same time as sacrificing dogs, so it was difficult for me to survive during solo play. In a group with a CM Wiz and Vortex Monk, that build works well.
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CoB is more of a finisher for this build. you still use dogs to spool up your gruesome feast. once your gruesome feast is up and running, then the 3% life steal should help you survive fairly well with the bigger crits bats can offer. (unless you are dealing with a reflect pack of course) check out the vid I linked 2 posts up, it shows the proper application of CoB within the 0dog build. remember, this build is 1st and foremost optimized for group play. tradeoff's in survivability was made to enable greater DPS rewards. this means you have to be that much better of a player, or you must to have a group that plays well together to leverage the synergy of different class abilities/buffs.

this build does require more skill to play and require alot of moving around. but if you fancy yourself as a skilled player, or prefers alittle more challenge then just stand in 1 place and turn on the summon/explode macro, then this build may give you the extra little excitement you are looking for. with this build, you can achieve the performance of higher paper DPS 0dog builds by being more skilled/aggressive then the typical 0dog play style.
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This seems to be alot of text to try to justify to us that low AS is ok for 0 dog builds

I would caution any player reading this post that it is proven over and over again that high AS is needed for survivabilty and damage for this kind of build.

The O dog build has already been tested and tweaked as much as its going to be at this point

Of course slight variation of skills you want to use is up to the individual player, but the core skill set of 0 dog remains in place..

To me videos prove nothing to me, as the edit feature on them is so easily used to show inflated results of game play.


btw, if you still feel that I "edited" the video :D you might want to check out the 28min vid here
http://youtu.be/yVgGI9QDTGM
and ask yourself, am i bored enough to go through and photoshop 28min worth of vid just to prove a point? :D
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05/03/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Psyclum
the big bang evolutions has a VERY expensive "starting line" (somewhere in the 10 billion gold range)


What?! So much? With that amount you can have an end game traditional 0 dog setup complete with high int, CC, CD, AR, vit AND AS of 2.xx.

05/24/2013 07:28 PMPosted by Psyclum
http://youtu.be/yVgGI9QDTGM


Too many near-death moments for my liking. Lol!
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the big bang evolutions has a VERY expensive "starting line" (somewhere in the 10 billion gold range)


What?! So much? With that amount you can have an end game traditional 0 dog setup complete with high int, CC, CD, AR, vit AND AS of 2.xx.

http://youtu.be/yVgGI9QDTGM


Too many near-death moments for my liking. Lol!


^+1

Exactly. It's good to know these things are being noticed by other players.
Edited by LordAmsa#1453 on 5/25/2013 9:21 AM PDT
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