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I don't know if this has been explicitly covered anywhere, but if you have a 5 button mouse (most are these days so I'm assuming you do), the easiest way to play SNS is to map diamond skin and explosive blast to the buttons on the side, and hold them down with your thumb. Then just spam frost nova. EB and DS are autocast. Only one button (frost nova) needs to be spammed. Thanks to Luffy for giving this tip.
And prismatic armor is terrible. Never use it.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 1/17/2014 2:26 PM PST
Spamming one button on your mouse, holding down 2 others, and using it for movement and aiming as well... That seems like a lot of work for one hand, a sure-fire way to catch RSI. :P
I bind EB and DS to Q and W, and FN to E. You can use the default 1-3 if you like, but those keys are too far away from the shift key, in my opinion. Hold down EB and DS as silverfire suggests, and spam FN whenevern needed. Put WW and Tele (or whatever you put in your last SNS slot) on the mouse.
Now each hand only has 2 main tasks: either holding and tapping a bunch buttons, or movement and tapping one button.
It should be said that I've got my mouse mouse sensitivity dialed up all the way to 11, and do all my mouse movement from the wrist and fingers. Holding down one or more buttons with my thumb cramps up my entire hand, seriously lowering the accuracy of my mouse movement. I've used the thumb buttons for single button presses in other games, but holding it down just really does not work for this kind of setup.
It's entirely possible that silverfire's approach works well if you operate your mouse mostly from the arm and elbow, with your mouse sensitivity set much lower. That could free up your hand to hold down buttons without affecting accuracy, because that's done in another part of your arm. However, I can't judge that from personal experience.
...He said, having just judged it. :(
well I am supremely bummed by this news. guess I need to run sns for awhile till I can no longer.
it really seems like the difficulty has been dropped. I remember mp6 being about the farthest I could go with my wizard but now it just seems likes a steam roll. going to have to bump it up to ten for some fun. get little use out my 3.01 aps
Don't get me wrong, I consider you my master at this wizard stuff! ;P But I don't get it.
As for mitigation:
My armor, AR and mitigation were all pretty bad. 4000 now up to 5400 armor, 750 now up to 940 AR, and 87% now up to 91% damage reduction, I can survive MP10 whereas previously it was MP8 at best. Now I can stay put significantly more often, even on MP10.
With DS, I had to constantly move away from the arcane beams, the green puddles, the fire puddles, the death explosions, the poison pods (that the trees put down), etc even on MP8
As for DPS:
If the lightening bolt fired with every critical hit, which would be constantly, then I could see the advantage. But they fire about every 3/4 to 1 second and only for 35%. (BTW, where is the 40% you mentioned?) The loss of DPS here seems unnoticeable while running around in MP10.
Thanks a million to the advice on the key/mouse use guys. I'll put them to good use!
EDIT: Is it normal to to see the key that are just help down, like explosive blast, get stuck and not fire the moment the cooldown is up? That's what Im seeing. I've even had a few instances where it stopped altogether for a second or two before the game realized that I do indeed have the key pushed and it starts up again.
Edited by Leviathan#1945 on 1/17/2014 6:29 PM PST
I tried the Warrior's Rest test on MP8:
As SNS (I used Crystal Shell rune to help stay alive):
As my variant:
As SNS (Crystal Shell again):
As my variant:
Grand average for SNS: 31s
Grand average for my variant: 32s
The difference was in the survivability!
Edited by Leviathan#1945 on 1/17/2014 7:40 PM PST
91% mit is overkill for normal farming. 89% is more than fine. I run with 88.6.
Those should not spawn in the first place, really. That's the whole point of SNS: perma-freeze so that monsters can't do anything.
Poison pods only open after a set amount of time or when you move. You can stand on a closed poison pod for 5-8 seconds before you have to move. Unless you're facing an elite pack as well, that should be enough to dispatch most of the mobs around you, at which point you want to move anyway.
Shocking Aspect has a chance of proccing with every skill (most notably WW), not just with Storm Armor. Considering that you'll have about 15 twisters out at any one time, and each of them they ticks 6 times a second with a 0.125 proc rate... That's 12 SA procs a second, for 433% weapon damage. And you don't even have to do anything for it.
The difference is more than noticeable.
Don't hold down WW or FN. Spam those keys, hold down EB and DS.
Edited by mzy#1101 on 1/18/2014 1:10 AM PST
If WW is on my mouse, can I hold it down? Or does it need to be spammed?
I'm not spec'd to permafreeze the elites. Once the mob(s) are gone, I can't crit fast enough of the one remaining elite fast enough to permafreeze it with either spell build. So I go with my variant in order to stay alive while they cast their myriad of attacks.. :( For example, the key warden in A3 is a PAIN because I can't permafreeze it and it teleports all over the place.
I'm 100x more likely to die to a single elite then a mob of 50.
Edited by Leviathan#1945 on 1/18/2014 12:37 PM PST
There are lots of ways to "play" CM...from a keybinding point of view. The others are correct in a sense...there should not be that many elite affixes firing off if you're playing CM optimally. Personally, I have WW on LMouse and Teleport on RMouse. I have Frost Nova, Diamond Shards, and Exp Blast bound to 1,2,3....with "stand still" set on TAB (so its comfortable). When I approach a pack I hold down the LMouse to continuously spam WW's.....and continuously hit 1 and 2 until things get rolling (maybe 2-3 seconds) then start hitting 1,2,and 3. Not hitting 123 to begin with saves some AP from not casting Exp Blast and lets you get out a few extra WW's (to generate more procs and more AP)....and that gets the cycle going.
Now, its acually a lie when I say that I hit 1,2,3 or any of those keys....I have a macro on my mouse that does it for me! But, soemtimes my macro dies out and I have to manually do it. Yeah, you hand and fingers can get tired....but depending on your keyboard, if you can keep your keypress length to a minimum (i.e. not slamming 123 up and down an inch away from the keys like a madman!!) then I think you'll be alright.
The problem is that most keyboards will not send 1,2, and 3 if you just hold down all 3 keys at the same time. It just sends one of them. Gaming keyboards will send all three keys if you hold all thee down at the same time. So, a gaming keyboard would be another solution if you didn't want to use a mouse macro. Also, if your familiar with autohotkey, you can write a macro for your keyboard that will send 123 for you.
But, yeah, if you're not getting your maximum number of WW out there....and not spamming Diamond Shards and Frost nova....then, things aren't going to work in conjunction with each other....and your survivability won't be maximized.
If you want to see the build in action, check out my video here. At 18:00 I do a run though the Fields of Misery in A3. This is what a run as SNS should look like:
Oh, don't feel bad about this. They buffed him so he ignores CC (crowd control, i.e. Frost Nova) and is actually a difficult enemy to freeze and defeat. So, yeah, he's tough to freeze.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/18/2014 1:10 PM PST
Ah yes! That's likely my issue.
I'll look into a gaming kb. Spamming all but the hold position key for now.
Regardless of key setup, holding down WW prevents other skills that are held down from triggering. You can either hold down EB and DS, or WW, but not both.
As for keyboards, I've always bought random cheap ones and never had any trouble with missing key presses. But as always with these things, YMMV.
quick little question; switched to a CM/WW build recently with my old spectral blades melee wizard gear and could basically do MP5 more or less effectively (the top mp my old melee setup was relatively competent with) with the caveat of being painfully slow but much much more survivable (I die less maybe 1/2 or 1/3 as often as I did with blades, but things take 2-3x longer to kill).
To remedy this, I re-geared the build to be slightly more offensive by switching the force/prismatic to storm/shocking and the nova rune from the cd one to the +Crit one and picked up about 15-20% more CC in gear. Thus far; it has been more offensively viable. and I'm still finding it quite survivable and am overall "dying less often" (As I've been getting more used to the build). For the most part I am doing my farming runs on MP3 Act 3 now because I can plow through that very very quickly and almost never die unless I do something weird like get a little careless with my kiting and end up fighting multiple elites at the same time or aggro a ton of ranged guys at the edge of the screen who just spike-nuke me to death suddenly.
My main question is about the weapon; I'm currently using a echoing fury which I was using with old build largely due to it having good all-around stats and because it had ~800ish LoH which was critical for my melee build. I'm seeing lots about "get a chantodo" set here and I did have a set in the past while I was using a healing blades melee build but swapped to deep/cuts - LoH instead.
most chantodos I'm seeing do NOT have LoH or ls, so am I supposed to go and find an uber expensive one that does? or how exactly does that work? how to I get chantodo and keep the healing coming? or am I just supposed to bite the bullet and farm till i have a couple hundred mil to buy one or something?
not going to be playing for the next couple hours as I have some stuff to do outside but it would be nice to have a solid answer about this when I get back
Healing when playing the CM/SNS build depends on 2 things. LoH and Attack Speed. As you cross each attack speed breakpoints (i.e. from 2.33 to 2.5 to 2.73 to 3.0) you enjoy an encrease of 20% more LoH (i.e. so you get about 20% more LoH playing at the 2.73 breakpoint as opposed to the 2.5 breakpoint). This occurs becuase at higher attack speeds you're WW are getting more and more ticks (or attacks (i.e. hits)). Now, if you are the 2.73 breakpoint about 800 LoH is recommended...typically from storm crow and Blackthorne pants. If you're at the 2.5 breakpoint you might want closer to 1000 to make up the difference. etc.
Now, if you think that you're not getting enough LoH where you are right now its because you are at a very low attack speed. That's why Chat set if crucial for CM wizards. Now only does the Chat Will have a base attack speed of 1.61, but it can go all the way up to 1.79. Plus, the Chant Force has 8 or 9 IAS as well. Plus, the set gives you an INT bonus and a reduction to elite reduction. OP.
So, you will be in a much better place, from both LoH return as well as freeze strength if you get a Chant set. Here's the math.
You are at 38% AS right now. With a 8% Chant force that puts you at 46%. if you want to be at the 2.73 breakpoint, then 2.73/1.46=1.87%.....and there is no weapon that is that fast. So you have to additionally get Lacunis for more IAS. then 38+8+8=1.54 and 2.73/1.54=1.78...so you'd need a 1.78 AS chant will. those are pretty expensive.
However, being at the 2.5 breakpoint is very nice as well. Thus. 38+8=46% as before. And 2.5/1.46=1.72. So. you'd just need a 8IAS Chant Force and a 1.72AS IAS Chant WIll...and those are very affordable. It also helps in the long run if you Chant Force has some VIT. Or STR, at least.
Also, you currently have an attack speed of 1.98 which puts you in the 1.875 breakpoint. If you get to the 2.5 breakpoint you will go up, lol, FIVE breakpoints. And, at about 20% increase per breakpoint, that means 100% more LoH returns, essentially twice as much. Sure, you'll lose HALF of you LoH since you will be losing what you have on your EF...so, I guess hat puts you at about the same place (double your returns, but lose half your LoH)....but, you'll be amazed at how much better your freeze strength is...and you'll take alot less damage. So, its a big win in the end.
Hope this helps!
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/19/2014 10:36 AM PST
I see; LoH should be coming from the helmet and pants; I see I am currently getting slightly less than 800 from my pants and helmet, I suppose I can stay on the market for better versions of the same things with LoH as a key decision factor; which actually fits my other builds fine since I picked those up for my melee in the first place due to the LoH.
Then... once I have more LoH on pants/helmet or some other sources (I know some amulets do have LoH, got a decent +800 one with dex/CC as a drop the other day that I'm saving for my DH, so I suppose I could find one with CC/LoH/INT hypothetically for my wizard through drops or something that would put me at a reasonable LoH level to forego my weapon LoH and pick up a chantodo set which will drastically increase the viability of the approximate same amount of LoH through superior IAS.
makes perfect sense and thank you very much!
just to summarize one last time to make sure I have the general gist of things.
step 1: in summary; boost non weapon LoH a minimum of 200ish points; more always being better.
step 2: get chantodo set for generally good ias features
step 3: get assorted other ias items
edit: BOOM done; picked up a nice +220int/10cc/800LoH amulet on AH for 1.5m because it popped right up when i entered search params to get a general ballpark idea of how much something to that effect would cost. I am currently at 1600 flat LoH without my echoing fury so I should be fine transitioning to a chantodo
guess I'll start looking out for a new chantodo set again. took me a while to get my last one but I did manage to find a decent set for about 1m which I managed to flip both pieces for 2m when I stopped using them.
would appreciate some tips on shopping for a chantodo set though as I think it's something I'll try to get later this next week after saving up some more gold (maybe willing to spend 4-5m for a nicer set than what I bought the first time so... 2-2.5m/apiece)
I was aware of the chantodo set being a generally good all around good wizard weapon set for the higher tier players and was usually scared off by the price until I happened to see a few good looking pieces for relatively low prices (500k/each) that one time and bought them on impulse to be later somewhat disappointed by the lack of LoH and having to compensate for that on my melee wiz by using the healing blades which were kind of lackluster compared to other blade runes
Edited by Larry#1370 on 1/19/2014 12:17 PM PST
Yeah....more or less. Nice ammy, but also keep in mind that the ammy is one of the few places where you can get up to 100 CD (unless you get a CD or OS Chant Will. Then, that changes the math of course...you'd need IAS elsewhere (lacunis, IAS on ammy, etc) in order to hit the 2.5 breakpoint. Do NOT consider using Mempo and APOC Force...its not worth it at your budget).
Thank you so much for all the support for the text guide and the movies. It's really been a privilege being part of this community and interacting with all of the regulars and everyone else that posted in this thread (some of, which, of course, became regulars!)
Here is the final tally:
Part one: 11/26/2012 - 3/12/2013
about 14 weeks it was open
Part two: 3/13/2013 - 4/30/2013
about 6 weeks it was open
Part three: 4/30/2013-1/19/2014
about 9 months open
so, about 35,000 views over 14 months with 1500 responses in the thread.
Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/19/2014 4:29 PM PST
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