Diablo® III

Gold cap and BoA Gear are now necessary.

(Locked)

Pop the AH or any Blizz sanctioned trading platform into D2 and it works just fine. Why? Because the game was well designed. D3 is not. There's core problems everywhere, and if you put on your critical thinking cap, none of it is related to the existence of an auction house (or whatever name you want to give to a trading exchange).


yea I can totally agree with this. that the platform can exist if certain measures are in place to keep it churning along. But those measures are related to the existence of it. Even if that relation was accidental; D3 could surely use some of those accidents.....:P
Edited by Shurgosa#1196 on 5/7/2013 9:03 PM PDT
MVP
Posts: 14,622
View profile
Yet, until today why were so many prices not rising? Why were prices on consumables stable? Where is the Inflation? If the Auction House gold sink was insufficient prices would rise across the board. Prices did not rise across the board. If anything, prices generally fell.

A month or so after the game launched top tier items were appraised at 1-10m gold.

6 months or so after the game launched top tier items were appraised at 100-500m gold.

1 year later top tier items exceed the Auction House cap of 2b in intrinsic value.

How is that NOT inflation?

Did the amount of gold that could drop in game suddenly increase? Well, very slightly, I'll give you that... However, not enough to compensate for a 20,000% increase in item value markup.

If that's not inflation, then I'm going to have to look up what the actual definition of inflation is then.

Pop the AH or any Blizz sanctioned trading platform into D2 and it works just fine. Why? Because the game was well designed.

You're lucky I didn't cause damage when I spit my water all over my monitor after reading your comment.

D2 and D3 are almost exactly alike in terms of how items are freely tradeable and the value of scarcity.

If D2 had an AH it would have crashed in a few weeks, not after an entire year.
Here is a post I made 24 days ago. The most recent price data I have is from mid-April. I can provide that if necessary. This post is formatted for another website. I am not going to fix it for this. I think it is readable.

**tl;dr There is not Inflation in Diablo 3 and I have significant data supporting my statement.**

**EDIT** I am adding a basic instruction of what Inflation means because the original poster and some redditors do not understand.

The original poster and some redditors do not understand what "Inflation" means in economic terms. Inflation has a specific meaning. In the real world there are many factors to Inflation and in some instances it can be good. For Diablo we want to focus on the economic definition of Inflation and not be bogged down by real world applications of inflation.

Let's hit all the basic search engine definitions...

Google
[Inflation -- A general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.](https://www.google.com/search?q=define+inflation&aq=f&oq=define+inflation&aqs=chrome.0.59j5j0l2.1697j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Dictionary
[Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inflation)

Investopedia
[The rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services is rising, and, subsequently, purchasing power is falling. ](http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflation.asp)

Wikipedia
[In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation)

Find an economics professor. Read some economics textbooks. They all say the same thing. Inflation is the general rise in prices. Inflation is the general ability of a currency to purchase less stuff over time.

In Diablo 3, gold inflation would exist when the same amount of gold buys less stuff. In Diablo 3, gold inflation would exist when prices generally rise. Neither of these things are occurring in Diablo 3. In Diablo 3, if gold inflation existed something might cost 10 today, and slowly, over time, it will begin to cost more. There may be days and times when it goes up. There may be days and times when it goes down. The overall trend will be upwards.

[This is a google image search of "rising prices"](https://www.google.com/search?q=rising+prices+graph&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=iShqUbjkBrPH4AOR1oCYCg&biw=853&bih=599&sei=iihqUeK0H-Lj4AO_kIG4AQ). Note how in most of the graphs that the line rises as it goes from left to right. If the line is low on the left and high on the right then prices are rising. If, in general, prices are rising then there is inflation.

[Here's Fiery Brimstones since launch](http://i.imgur.com/OpPNGmP.png)

[Exquisite Essence since launch](http://i.imgur.com/91fMJ2R.png)

[Radiant Amethyst](http://i.imgur.com/Ay8Y8GG.png)

[Tomes Launch](http://i.imgur.com/c5F6yyC.png)

Do these graphs, in general, rise from left to right? No, well, maybe sort of. Some of them have lots of spikes. There seems to be a dip around November 1st for Amethysts (and other gems) and Tomes. Why would that be? October 16th was the release of Monster Power and reduced Inferno difficulty. Players became able to generate items far more quickly and many players stopped picking up gems and tomes. Patches mean the economy of Diablo 3 changes drastically. When the economy changes there may be temporary periods of inflation or deflation. However, due to the Gold Auction house 15% fee the economy eventually comes into balance.

What matters more than the long-term is what is happening now. The game was drastically different in previous patches. Where are prices going now? What directions are prices moving?

>Most of you know this concept as inflation. And believe me; I shouldn’t have to prove its existence to you in this game. It is rampant. The evidence is incontrovertible.

I don't believe you. Inflation is NOT rampant in Diablo 3. The Gold Auction House is a gold sink. The Gold Auction House is a flexible gold sink that destroys more gold when more gold is being created. The 15% fee means that when prices rise the amount of gold destroyed also rises. Balance occurs where the amount of gold destroyed roughly equals the amount of gold created.

The example you cite...

>Flash back to May 15th 2012, when a few million gold made you feel like, well, a ‘millionaire’. Today, almost a year later, having ‘only’ a few million gold marks you as an impoverished player.

... is a poor example. The equilibrium point where gold created roughly equals gold destroyed is constantly changing. At the very beginning of the game this equilibrium point was changing rapidly and was rising rapidly. Diablo 3 was in a temporary period of gold inflation. This inflation stopped when balance was achieved. Each new patch with drastic economic changes also will have periods of deflation and inflation. Balance WILL be achieved.

Diablo is a very fast moving, dynamic and frequently changing economy due to patches which drastically alter players wants and ability to create items. Therefore, it is most relevant to look at recent data to determine trends of inflation and deflation and NOT compare the game to its infancy. Obviously, at the start of the game when few people were level 60 and level 60s struggled to kill enemies in Inferno will have a drastically different economy from what we have now where players have piles of magic and gold find from Paragon levels, Inferno is relatively easy, and a much larger portion of players are at level 60.

Here is recent data on the trends of prices...

All prices on Softcore NA server since February 25th (about 10 days after 1.07 release)...

Radiant Star Emelerads - 30M to 23M

Fiery Brimstone - 14k to 10k

Tomes of Secret - 1,300 to 100.

Exquisite Essence - 550 to 700 <--- This one rose!

Iridescent Tear - 1,200 to 1700 <--- This one rose too! Both have risen quite a bit this weekend.

Inna Temperence 80 Str 6M --> 2M

Inna Temp 80 Str/50Vit 170--> 265 This one rose!

Inna Temp 40 AR 11M --> 5M

Inna Temp 70 AR 80M --> 60M

Mempo 190 Str/40 Vit 12 --> 6M

Mempo 170 Dex/Crit 310 --> 400M This one rose too!

Zuni Trail 180 Int/70 Vit 1 to .4M

180/70/All Resist 8 --> 6

180/80/50 AR 60 --> 38M

Immortal King Armor 150/100 17 --> 5.5

150/150 40 --> 31

150/200 130 --> 93

Bloody Footprints 140 Dex 1.6 --> 1.3

140/40 Vit 13M --> 6M

200/40 45 --> 80M This one rose! (but Feb 15th it was 80M and it was 100M in most of March)

Relentless Pursuit 150 Int/100 Vit .6 to .2

170/200 14 --> 4

170/200 Armor 39 to 30

150/100 All Resist 10 to 10

150/100 50 All Resist 140 --> 120

The MAJORITY of items are FALLING in prices. The price trend is towards deflation. Whether you made a good investment on Tomes is a separate question. You may have made a good investment. However, saying something like "Inflation is Diablo 3 is incontrovertible" is ignorant.
Edited by MortalSmurph#1775 on 5/7/2013 9:07 PM PDT
Do people who want more BoA gear want more BoA gear that binds the second you craft it/find it? I think that would be an absolutely terrible idea. Trade is a big part of diablo, BoA on find/craft destroys that aspect of the game.

If people are suggesting bind to account on equip then I could see that being somewhat more acceptable, but it's still not the only solution.

Even in blizzards current system of occasionally outdate old gear, gear is eventually removed. People have limited inventory space and are not going to keep every item they ever use. Certain legacy items end up getting vendored/salvaged. Things like legacy nats or legacy zun boots may not be because of certain unique aspects of them that make them competitive with new gear, but a lot of old legacy gear is eventually abandoned. The number of items in circulation does NOT increase infinitely, because there is finite space per account to store items.

Edit: Oh, and I would support a gold cap because having near infinite space to store gold is a problem.
Edited by Borg#1611 on 5/7/2013 9:13 PM PDT
ty men
Posts: 243
Remove all caps and floors, they don't work.
The real problem is still a combination between itemization, young L60s having enough stuff to sell to get better gear and too much money in the hands of people who don't play the game (flippers to farmers).

I like the AH. It gives me options and makes the game more fun and less about MMO grinding. In fact, an AH is actually ANTI-MMO because it lets you trade anonymously instead of having to meet a guy and trade with him. WoW is a horrible MMO because of the gAH there because instead of meeting people and dealing, which is what a MMO is about, you just put stuff up and sell it. So it's better suited for a game like D3.

The main problem is there are too many gold sinks for young players and not enough gold sinks for way-too-rich players. When young players (like L60 paragon 10, going through MP2) hit that wall where they have way too little money and need a whole new suit that will cost 10-20 mil to go to the next MP, that's where the misery lies. I don't care if some dude wants to powerfarm MP10 in a 20 billion suit and I don't care if some guy wants to pay 10 billion for a perfectly rolled Skorn. For the elite items, let those few players do what they want.

What we really need is for the average player who has put time in to the game and doesn't want to walk away, that person should have reasonable means to get reasonable gear.

Right now, players who sell everything they farm (might as well since all you're going to get all day is junk yellows and a couple junk legendaries), high L60s don't need any of their stuff. They don't need inferno salvaged mats, they don't need flawless squares, they don't need tomes, they don't need brimstones...and if they do need them, they need just a few...not enough to even put a dent into the economy. The one thing young players have that middle level players want is Demonic Essence and it's account bound :(.

Make some new recipes. Have them be account bound items, fine. Let them cost a hundred stack of tomes, essences, tears, 10 brimstones, 25 of each flawless square, whatever. And let them roll legendary L63s just like the yellow L63 craftables and be able to buy those mats from young L60s who then can go buy medium rolled yellows from the high level 60s who get those and ok Legendaries while farming MP10.

Another thing I'd like to see is a scaling AH. The less the item sells for, like a young L60 player selling a 100 stack of tears for 10K gold, all of those transactions should have a AH tax of like 5%. Someone selling a 10 mil item, tax him 15%. Someone selling 1 bil or more, 20%. Raise the cap to 20 billion, max tax is 20%. Don't make a hard cap...every time you do in a macro economic situation, a black market will develop to fill the void.

I'd also like to see some sort of think that annoys people from buying something good on the gAH and flipping it on to the RMAH.
Posts: 5,948
A gold cap is pretty much a no brainer and shouldn't have exceeded what the max bid on the Auction House was by such a large margin.

I remember when this game launched. High end items were worth somewhere around 2-5m gold. Now they're worth such an insurmountable grip of gold that it has vastly exceeded the cap at which the Auction House was designed to handle.

The Auction House was going to eventually collapse. This was apparent from day one. After a full year there's still no effective gold sinks, still no destroying of good gear (It's only replaced with newer better gear with each "itemization update") and botting is still just as rampant as it ever was.


It's statements like these that show people have ZERO understanding of how the economy in this game works and is intended to work. Not every game like this has the same type of economy. Period. Inflation is PART OF THE SYSTEM. Its accounted for... its a known thing in any Diablo economy. Any statements made out of ignorance of this understanding that inflation is fundamentally PART OF THE ECONOMY shows you don't understand the economy in this game and should do some work trying to learn how it was designed.
Posts: 5,948
INFLATION DOESN"T MATTER. The only thing that matters is that items drop. Until items stop dropping inflation is COMPLETELY NEGLIGIBLE. If an item drops... you can trade that item for the items you want.... the current market value of gold has nothing to do with whether items drop... whether your item will sell... or whether you can buy items with your gold.
Posts: 5,948
All you morons talking about "rich players need more gold sinks" are retarded. There is no point in trying to explain this anymore. If you don't get it... you never will. Sorry. Move on. You're ignorant when it comes to the economy in this game.

Every single one of you forgets that item drops in this game are completely random... and that is the key to understanding the economy in this game.
Remove the AH... implement itemization. enchance the loot find experience and then make a better end game for us to "explore" not brainlessly walk in a linear fashion though a automated storyline.

/thread
MVP
Posts: 14,622
View profile
MortalSmurph, I very much appreciate your post...

However, you have just completely hit a home run when I suggested that the FLOOR is what is rising.

Think of it like this. (I created a very quick graph in Excel to show exactly what I mean.)

http://i.imgur.com/r0sqtud.png

So while your evidence is clearly supporting the fact that "Average" items are deflating in value, it's largely due to the fact that there's a huge surplus of them in the system.

However, take a look around from some 6% crit Mempos.

The prices of these far exceed the cap because they're still extremely scarce.

If an item like this had existed in the game's launch, it would have sold for around 10m gold as that was how much gold was in the system.

However, since every day items are NOT destroyed, the floor on what's actually sellable as an upgrade to someone rises exponentially. What's happening is most of the stuff you find becomes absolute junk to most people.

If items were BoE... Most items would still be exceedingly rare and yes, the cost of them WILL inflate.

So while I very much appreciate the data you have presented, it is not a wholly accurate picture of what is actually happening in the game and it most certainly fits within every statement I have ever made surrounding this issue.

The number of items entering the system and floating around are offsetting the inflation which your data also supports.

If items were actually destroyed somewhere along the process then your data would reflect much different numbers.

Nothing is destroyed, not even gems.
Posts: 1,353
Actually, the topic title isn't true. They were necessary from day one... It's just become evident.

If there's one thing you can learn from today's patch it's how horribly saturated the market is with gold and high end items.

A gold cap is pretty much a no brainer and shouldn't have exceeded what the max bid on the Auction House was by such a large margin.

I remember when this game launched. High end items were worth somewhere around 2-5m gold. Now they're worth such an insurmountable grip of gold that it has vastly exceeded the cap at which the Auction House was designed to handle.

The Auction House was going to eventually collapse. This was apparent from day one. After a full year there's still no effective gold sinks, still no destroying of good gear (It's only replaced with newer better gear with each "itemization update") and botting is still just as rampant as it ever was.

Now players are struggling just to keep up with the astronomical prices and have resorted to using 3rd party sites to host their "auctions" so that they can sell items for their true intrinsic value.

To make matters worse, the game is further being designed with this mindset that it must combat inflation through gold sinks.

The only method to combat this inflation is with a cap. Personally, I would set the cap to 5 times the current AH cap (10b gold) and announce the change well in advance. Give players a little bit of time to liquidate their current gold, then just outright cap it. Otherwise, you'll keep playing this cat and mouse game with the current inflation.

A gold cap would be the first logical step in the right direction.

The second thing I would do is keep the game's current model of non BoA loot, but then add new items that ARE BoA that drop alongside them. You can play with the droprates but in general the drop rate should feel as though a player is actually progressing their character through these newfound items that they MUST play the game to collect.

What players won't see is the beauty of this system. While this gear might slightly reduce the value of hard to find items, in the long run it will help maintain a healthy game. The reason for this is to allow people to actually obtain their items through playing the game.

You guys said it yourself, you reduced the droprate of good items ENTIRELY BECAUSE the Auction House exists. It is pretty evident that the Auction House has done more harm than good in giving players a sense of satisfaction from finding items in the game.

Every day when a new "Amazing" item is created, all it simply does is devalue every other item floating around in the economy. As time goes on, the floor simply rises with the level of gear that's available on the Auction House.

Right now, the most profitable way for anyone to play the game is to simply not play it. Go to your job, make a little bit of money, turn around and use a fraction of that money to save you literally a whole year of grinding gold in the game, buy gear, then turn around and complain that you can't find anything better than what you just bought.

Now if I was to say find these awesome items by playing the game, but I couldn't trade them away... I would get this complete sense of satisfaction from knowing I actually earned what I am wearing.

Please... I'm not even asking at this point, but more like begging... If you're going to keep one MMO mechanic in place then you have to institute the other MMO mechanics that are in game to counterbalance them.

TL:DR If you have an Auction House, you must have a gold cap and the uppermost top tier of items MUST be BoA.


A well thought out and concise post.

I can not tell you how much enjoyment I would have knowing that I could actually get top ranked on the ladders at diabloprogress or what have you from actually playing the game and not having to play the AH.

I would definitely make alts and level them, but as it stands now I can't afford to play more then one toon. It's sad state that the game is in.
By definition, the current value of gold does matter if want to sell your item. The value of gold is determined by the worth of gold relative to other items. This "worth of gold relative to other items" is known as price. Price is relevant. Inflation has to do with price. By definition, Inflation means that in general you would gain more gold by selling your item at a later date. Inflation encourages players to save items. Deflation encourages players to save gold.

Inflation and Deflation are very relevant to the Diablo economy for these reasons.
Personally, I find this to be a far better solution:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8769577022#1
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]