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I didn't realize Familiar has an issue as well. I'll have to play with it a bit. Are you reasonably confident they're using the same mechanic?
Deflection is fairly clearly worded as an on-attack mechanic:
"When you perform an attack, gain a protective shield for 3 seconds that absorbs 8253 damage."
Familiar doesn't actually say it's an on-attack mechanic:
"Summon a Familiar that attacks your enemies for 179% weapon damage as Arcane. This companion cannot be targeted or damaged by enemies. Lasts 10 minutes."
In-game, it certainly acts a lot like an on-attack proc, but it may actually be a little more autonomous, using your attacks as targeting assistance and a general on/off switch. If it was just always attacking, it could get annoying, like if it randomly shot at a gob or an elite pack on its own when you're waiting for your party to gather.
But I guess if familiar were more autonomous, you wouldn't lose attacks by getting an attack speed buff; it would just attack at the un-buffed speed. But if it were attacking at the un-buffed speed, it would quickly look completely out-of-sync with your buffed attacks.
Reasonably. They got their 2 APS cap and per-second cap at the same time and got the 2 APS cap removed at the same time. They stack/fire at the same speed and are affected by a bug that is - as far as I can tell right now - also the same for both.
I don't know if they actually use the same lines of code. But it seems unlikely that they work fundamentally different.
I don't have a very high opinion of tooltip descriptions in general. I don't know. Familiar is clearly linked to your attack speed and to you attacking, so...
Ultimately it doesn't matter much. Because I just did a few tests and I think you are right. I remembered that wrong, Familiar does indeed simply skip procs.
Not sure what level of detail went into investigating this skill, but does it really not crit at all? or can I treat it like the mm:conflag DoT where it checks for a crit roll every few frames and then the displayed damage number is the sum of all individual pieces of damage in that interval?
Ignore what I said, I think I'm just confusing myself....
Edited by BDF#1838 on 7/4/2014 9:28 AM PDT
I had some basics, then Harrowing contributed more detail on some things. But that was all months ago and several things are wrong, as outlined by dolynick here: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13273047711
To your question: I don't know.
It's on my to-do-list. I was very lazy with updates lately. But I'm on vacation now, so should get some things done next week.
Edited by apo#2677 on 7/4/2014 9:05 AM PDT
I did a frame by frame with Blazing Hydra on normal ghom:
Data is still accurate, need to redo the test because I'm not sure how many stacks I'm looking at.
Uploading vid if you're interested...first time I've done this kind of analysis...not sure if I was dropping frames...but I set fraps to record at 60 FPS, and then also for the game to max out at 60 FPS
Edited by BDF#1838 on 7/7/2014 7:25 PM PDT
That's interesting. dolynick reported 36% per second, which is 180% total.
I'm not sure if Youtube preserves frame rate (probably not) so I'm going to make my own video.
I'm mildly confused. So you are seeing ~295% WD total. But I'm not sure about your measuring. Are you counting the pop-up damage numbers? Or monster health bar differences? (can't access the Google docs spreadsheet)
In my tests, I consistently saw 270% total. And dolynick says 180%.
Two of us are wrong, and/or we are missing something.
Pop up numbers of 3796 dmg
390.5 avg dmg, 1 aps, 0 IAS, 949 INT, 14.5 CHC, 50 CHD, no buffs
Resulting in 4393.33 sheet dps
Damage was done in 4 chunks of 948 in between each displayed tick every 8 - 12 frames, resulting in a change of health of 3792, even though the displayed ticks stated 3796.
My video wasn't long enough to test the length of the dot, I was focusing mostly on the steady state damage.
And now I'm not even sure if I was measuring two or three stacks....I might be seeing a second missile impact around 3-5 frames after the first (you can see a second shock-wave following the first one).....and then definitely one lands 11 frames after the first.
I think I'm going to do another test, Ghom was just blocking too much of the view on this video.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 7/7/2014 7:09 PM PDT
Yeah, display ticks tend to do that kind of crap. Usually, there's some smaller ticks at the end that even things out.
I guess the easiest way would be to look at total damage. Write down health at start, let Hydra hit once or twice, write down health when DoT has ended, substract.
But again, you're seeing 3792 two stacks = 1896 one stack. Every 0.8s I presume, because that's how those usually work*.
1896 / 0.8 = 2370. Times 5 seconds = 11850.
11850 / 4393 sheet DPS = 2.697 = 270%
* I know you said something like 0.7Xs in your previous post, but I'm going to conventiently ignore that. The same way I also ignore that display ticks don't remain constant for the entire duration of the DoT.
This part I'm really uncertain of now because the hydra was smack on top of Ghom and now when counting the explosions upon impact I'm again convinced I saw 3 stacks, not 2.
Also, I'm an idiot and forgot to make the googledoc spreadsheet public, which is likely why you couldn't see it:
Between 43 and 46 frames for each displayed tick...never more often.
I don't know man. That's very strange. I was under the impression that display ticks are always every 48 frames nowadays.
Would you mind doing a test as outlined above, to find the total damage? The tickrate is not that interesting right now I feel. But there's huge differences in reported damage and I would love to get to the bottom of this at least.
@Apo (or anyone else who cares to check):
Do you happen to have http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/overwhelming-desire-1I0LYo ?
I meant to post about this a long time ago, but I'm almost 100% positive the 35% damage debuff doesn't work right now (at least not on Live). I use it on my follower for the charm effect, but I never notice the damage the mob takes while charmed go up. Tried it again by equipping it myself and never noticed it either. I'm not testing with a min=max setup, but even still I should clearly notice a damage increase of that much at a glance. Would you or anyone else care to verify this for me?
Also curious of the proc rate and/or ICD if you or anyone else care to test.
Thanks in advance.
Yeah I can do that when I get back to my gaming computer, I wouldn't put too much stock into my frame-by-frame since I'm betting there were some framerate issues or something.
I'll get back to you sometime this weekend I think.
Sorry, it´s too early in the morning for me to think straight but how are we going to reliably test proc coefficients when LoH is changed to "on attack"? Talking about newest PTR build.
Then we get
•Whirlwind •Significantly increased proc coefficient•
and cannot even properly determine what it is.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/9/2014 10:49 PM PDT
Hey Nubtro. Yes, that was one of my first thoughts as well.
But memo brought up http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/hack
The damage dealt by the legendary proc is calculated as (Primary Stat / 400 + 1) * (Sheet Thorns Value) * (Hack % Roll) * (Skill Proc Coefficient)
So this should work. Demon Hunters are screwed though I guess.
And I'm absolutely not happy with that turn of events.
Either get rid of proc coefficients altogether, revert the LoH change or add an official, regularly updated list to the game guide. I don't care what it is, but this right now is not okay.
@BDF: dolynick was right. It's 180%
[edit2]Also, updates/fixes and a new chapter on Nephalem Glory.
Edited by apo#2677 on 7/10/2014 1:15 PM PDT
Hey, love the work here. I was wondering if Explosive blast damage scaled with attack speed, didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread. I'm also curious if other skills with CDs are affected by attack speed (earthquake, seven sided strike). I don't suppose you have any work on or interest in working on other classes?
In general, not at all or very little.
For Explosive Blast - Chain Reaction the time between blasts of a single cast is scaled with attack speed. That doesn't really change much though, it only front-loads damage by a bit. In total you are still hitting three times per cast for the same damage as before and cooldown is the only thing limiting your ability to cast it more often.
EB is a secondary animation spell, so attack speed truly has no effect whatsoever on cast rate.
Other cooldown spells like for example Black Hole are primary animations. That means casting them takes a period of "one attack". And how long that is in seconds, depends on your attack speed.
So the first cast is faster with more IAS, but again it doesn't actually affect your DPS with that spell. It's only a minor factor in mobility maybe and again front-loads the damage by a fraction of a second.
This is true for most spells which have a limiting factor other than attack speed. Like Blizzard or Rend which do not stack. More IAS makes you cast them faster, but you don't really get any benefit from it.
Only very few spells include attack speed in way other than "you can now cast/hit faster". For example Barb's Sprint - Run like the Wind includes attack speed in the total damage calculation of each individual tornado. As the spawn rate of tornados is not affected by attack speed, this makes tornado DPS scale with attack speed "regularly". But in fact the mechanic leading to that regular linear scaling is quite exceptional.
Off the top of my head I can't think of any other noteworthy examples, but there probably are a few more exceptions and special cases.
Regarding the skills you mentioned. If have not personally tested either one, but:
Earthquake doesn't scale with attack speed (see spreadsheet linked in https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12329703286 - best source for Barb mechanics).
Seven Sided Strike I don't know, but I would be very very surprised if DPS did scale with attack speed. The only kind of scaling I can imagine for that skill would be something similar to Chain Reaction. That maybe IAS shortens the duration of the animation.
I don't suppose you have any work on or interest in working on other classes?
Some of the things I know are universal to the game and many at least enable me to make educated guesses. But I have not spent a significant amount of time or effort on researching the specifics of other classes.
It's not at all that I have no interest though. I could see myself doing this as a job. But someone would actually have to pay me for it then.
To learn everything, stay up to date with patches, re-test and verify stuff, takes a significant amount of time even for one class. Doing it for more than one or even all of them would be quite difficult. Even if you skip answering questions and reporting/documenting bugs/mechanics (which would kind of make the whole process of becoming an expert quite pointless).
Edited by apo#2677 on 7/18/2014 1:32 PM PDT
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