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There is a reason monks all use nats set, the 7 crit bonus and extra 70 all res armor and reduction melee dmg, provide much more dmg and protection. you must not of had a good nats set to have an 8k dmg increase. i tried the same thing, zuni didnt come close to nats, and i have a skorn.
nats> then all for monks, most important stat is crit %
The funny thing is that your zuni boots probably cost under 5mil. I picked up a pair just like that with physical resist for like 1.2mil a while back. GG indeed lol. I think the main issue is losing CC from the bonus+ring and losing the utility from that.
That's a solid argument >:)
However i believe more CC does help a lot when use certain skill >:)
Here/s my take on the thread topic, which has been discussed several months ago.
If you're using black damage weapon(s) and if enjoy placing a ruby into your weapon, the Zuni+rare is a good alternative.
If you're going for high CHC/CHD, the Nat's combo has higher potential for both DPS and eHP, provided you can afford it.
This is similar to a poison monk comparing andariels to a 4.5 CHC Mempo. If you can afford it, just go for the higher-end version.
Let's say someone chose the first option of Zuni+rare, then the gear synergy will revolve around 6/30 SoJ, WKL, high-dex Tal Rasha's amulet. Skill choices will be those that do not have special on-crit bonuses.
If the second option of Nat's combo is chosen, the player is going for CHC/CHD pairing. Gear choices and skill choices are then self-explanatory.
If you only look at your paper dps, Zuni boot/rare ring may give you similar or even higher dps when compared to a nat set, but the problem is the loss of 5-7 cc (assume that you have at least 4cc nat ring and compare to a 6cc rare ring) is huge.
When it come to your CC dependent skill, eg. you will getting >10% less of cyclone and spirit regen from FoT/quickening.
Edited by Popoc#1734 on 5/16/2013 4:38 AM PDT
Considering when I put my nats ring and nats boots (neither of which are that great) on your toon with d3up it gave you about 1,500 dps as an increase, I question your theory on zuni's and a rare being superior to nat's combo.
For the vast majority of specs, Nat's 2x is unbeatable.
This is because several monk skills "superscale" with CHC.
example1: SW:Cyclone does more damage AND procs more often with CHC. This makes each additional 1% of CHC more effective than the last 1%. If you are using SW:C, you should be using Nat's 2x.
example2: FoT:Quickening + WoL will do more damage AND produce more spirit for more damage with more CHC.
However, there are cases where you are not using FoT:Q or SW:C at which point it comes entirely down to paperdoll DPS.
I do not have an example of a spec like this because not using super-scaling skills is generally sub-par.
The only good reason to use Zuni+ring is low-MP TRing where you need to have an SoJ and a Hellfire which only leaves room for 1 of the 2 Nat's pieces.
To be fair, my zuni+hellfire is approximately equal in paperdoll dps to my 2x Nat's and, when testing FoT:Q bells specs against MP10 ghom, they come out almost dead-even in true DPS.
I think this is because the superscaling from FoT:Q is MUCH smaller than the superscaling from SW:C (which I do not use) and thus the difference in ~6.5% CHC is much harder to notice.
Lastly, I wanted to make one correction:
In this case you are actually gimping yourself twice.
First, the WKL does not benefit from SoJ+zuni+tal's in the same way a black weapon does and thus would actually be a very bad weapon to use with this set. You want to get black-damage weapons. Base damage vs dex vs CHD is all even. Whichever increases your paperdoll by the most is the best. As is the case for 99% of monks, Emerald is still most likely better than Ruby.
Second, each additional 1% of a given stat will increase your total DPS by LESS than the previous 1%. This is because going from 1% to 2% is a 100% increase and going from 2% to 3% is only a 50% increase. Therefore, if all else is equal, you actually get the most (a true 8% damage increase) by using Zuni boots in isolation from SoJ and Tal's Ammy.
-Druin, the happy monk
Edited by Druin#1518 on 5/16/2013 3:51 PM PDT
Druin, you are a legend, but I honestly feel I get harder hitting bells w/ ruby... but my CC is 'OK' so I might be on the fence, appreciate a gander and advice!
I have done a lot of thinking about this subject and here are my current beliefs:
We know that in the vast majority of cases, Emerald will provide a higher paperdoll DPS than Ruby.
This is because most monks are using one of two setups:
A 2h wep (Skorn) which has VERY high base damage and suffers from a missing 100% CHD vs 1h weps and thus Emerald>Ruby.
A duel-wield setup which halves the effectiveness of a Ruby because it only affects the swing from 1 weapon while an Emerald affects the swing from both weapons.
Note: For sword and board monks, Ruby will actually produce a higher DPS than Emerald despite having the highest possible CHC. This is because 1h weps have low base damage which allows the ruby to have maximum effect.
Despite the Emerald providing more paperdoll dps, there are several situations where I believe a Ruby is actually superior and only one of them is really "testable" (I have tested it).
The first is in the case that you are experiencing Deth, when a monk uses two 1h weps but plays with a mainhand-only spender spec.
In your case, FoF is doing VERY little of your damage and WoL:WoL is doing 95%+ of your damage.
This means that, despite the fact that you are "duel wielding" you are really more like a sword and board monk.
I have tested this and Fitz has tested this and we have independantly concluded that for bell spam d/w monks, a ruby in the mainhand is the way to go. This works for both Nirvana and classic FoT:Q bells.
The second case is the concept of "overkill" and it is extremely difficult to calculate and/or prove so I will only present it as a theory.
If a monster has x life, doing any more than x damage is useless. Gaining paperdoll DPS through Critical Hit Damage is actually artificial dps if your crits already did >x damage.
Because WoL does SO much damage, it is very possible that this is the case even on MP10.
A Ruby, while giving you strictly less DPS against elites, champions and bosses, can very well increase your "true" dps by allowing non-crits to do more damage while still allowing crits to 1shot things.
As I said, this is just theory and, afaik has not been proven with any semblance of reliability.
I personally do not use a Ruby in my Anger Gore because the weapon has such a redic high average damage as-is, that it would be a minimal change compared to an emerald.
tl;dr - Deth, you are right to use a Ruby. You are also in the EXTREME minority with your spec/gearing choice.
-Druin, the happy monk
Apologies in advance for the dumb question, but phrasing stuff like this always confuses me -
The percent increase may be smaller, but you're still gaining the same amount of damage overall, correct?
Looking at your profile, you currently have 6% ele dmg bonus. You gain the same amount of damage going from 6-8 as you do from 10-12. Though the amount of damage gained is the same, since you're starting with a larger number at 10 than 6, the percent increase is smaller.
Wouldn't that argument be the same for just about any stat though? Going from 0-3% CC on your SoJ provides the same amount of dps increase as going from 9-12%. Going from 169-269 dex on your weapon provides the same dps increase as going from 369-469.
In all of these cases, the amount of dps you gain is the same, but the percent increase is smaller because you were starting with a larger number.
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