Diablo® III

202K DPS / 645K EHP: The Balanced Budget Way

05/14/2013 10:46 AMPosted by Piffle
I haven't looked much at gear in the AH recently, but past experience shows that as rolls on gear approaches perfect, the price rises exponentially. So, for example, a pair of Inna's pants with 40-45 lightning resist might cost 4 million, but a pair with 55-60 might cost 20 million.


I'm in total agreement with Nameless on this front. What I've noticed over time is this: non-AR resists are much less like this to a certain extent than other stats because you're really not approaching perfection. There's a whole 'nother 20 resists to go. If you're patient, the actual price you have to pay for 55+ is not that much more than 40+.

Even on gear where you're double stacking resists, for the most part you're not closer to perfection because it's on gear like Nats boots where Dex+Vit roll is considered "better".

Also, there's always eventually someone (who probably doesn't play a Monk) that will look at 59 Lightning resist and think that it's a nice to have and more or less on par with a 42 resist roll and just throw it on the AH for that much. And there's so much gear out there right now that they're getting closer to being right.
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I mean, I'm not disagreeing with his overall philosophy, and, as I said, it's been a while since I've looked in the AH so maybe as you're saying this has all changed with regard to single resists.

But on an overall level, as stats approach perfect, the price rises exponentially. Whether this is 60 for Lighting Resist, 80 for All Resist, 200 for Vitality ... whatever.

What Nameless is advocating is that you get as close as possible to 60 for single resist, and of course that makes total sense. But it also makes sense that you would get as close to perfectly rolled stats everywhere as possible. The reason why people generally don't is due to price rather than lack of desire. Now maybe single resist is a place where people actually just shrug and say, "40 is enough for me" and that is the behavior that Nameless is trying to fix. But if it's not, and he's saying it's worth the extra money to get 10 more resists ... then at what point is it not worth a few extra resist?
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I farmed for DEs in VotA. This is where having an LS Skorn and doing TR/Bells really helps, as I am able to clear MP5 / MP6 VotA in well under 10 minutes

I would hope so! Back when I was timing myself I was doing mp6 vota runs with my tasty cookie (and no TR) in 5-6 minutes.
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Hi sir! It's been a while ;; making quite the progress though, it's nice to see :)

Might have to get on and do some runs with you guys one of these days. Any sheBane sightings lately? Kamel said he was gonna get on MH today... he lied >< Perhaps your influence? :p


sheBane reporting in. :) After quite the hiatus, I do plan on being on tonight. Around 10(ish) est. I indubitably expect to see you, GAPS! (Also, Nameless and Kamel) ;)
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Hi sir! It's been a while ;; making quite the progress though, it's nice to see :)

Might have to get on and do some runs with you guys one of these days. Any sheBane sightings lately? Kamel said he was gonna get on MH today... he lied >< Perhaps your influence? :p


sheBane reporting in. :) After quite the hiatus, I do plan on being on tonight. Around 10(ish) est. I indubitably expect to see you, GAPS! (Also, Nameless and Kamel) ;)


START S NEW THREAD!
THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT THE RETURN OF GIRL BANE NOW

I chatted with boy bane last night :-P
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sheBane reporting in. :) After quite the hiatus, I do plan on being on tonight. Around 10(ish) est. I indubitably expect to see you, GAPS! (Also, Nameless and Kamel) ;)

holy hell woman! did you have another baby or three?!?? where the hell have you been lol
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05/14/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Nameless
But yes, my RNG luck in crafting has been extraordinary and there is no denying that

I need some of this ... at least for my amy = /
is there anything that you do before you start crafting? Like getting a 5 stack of neph or kill a goat? I don't care if it's just superstition, just whatever helps
crafting RNG god has been horrible to me =(
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I need some of this ... at least for my amy = /
is there anything that you do before you start crafting? Like getting a 5 stack of neph or kill a goat? I don't care if it's just superstition, just whatever helps
crafting RNG god has been horrible to me =(

I doubt that any ritual will appeal to RNG gods... it really is luck of the draw. But since you asked, here's my process... I first of all decide how much gold I plan to spend on crafting (usually 5M per session), decide on which 1 or 2 slots to craft for, decide on how many to do of each that will fit my budget, check to make sure I have all of the crafting mats necessary. And then I just head in and craft away according to my plan. I make sure I don't break from my plan and just check as it goes along. No real secret or science anyway. I typically craft around 60-100 pieces at a time, depending on which slots I'm crafting for.

From this point forward, I think I will focus solely on gloves, as my bracers and ammy will be very difficult to upgrade from and I am not interested in working on chest, and my shoulders will be too hard to craft upgrades for if I don't want to sacrifice EHP. I might start trying for shoulders after I make a decision to go OWE free.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 5/14/2013 2:00 PM PDT
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Great thread, agree with just about everything on OWEing. I was stuck using the Hellfire resist, but if I wasn't I'd probably do Poison for a cheap Andariel. ( http://i.imgur.com/GIiLv0j.png on AH right now for 250k)
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What Nameless is advocating is that you get as close as possible to 60 for single resist, and of course that makes total sense. But it also makes sense that you would get as close to perfectly rolled stats everywhere as possible. The reason why people generally don't is due to price rather than lack of desire. Now maybe single resist is a place where people actually just shrug and say, "40 is enough for me" and that is the behavior that Nameless is trying to fix.

I've been meaning to get back to you here about this... but my days have been crazy and haven't had time to put thought into answers. You are 100% correct in that I am trying to address the attitude that "40 is enough for me" when it comes to SR. I think that if you choose to look for SR in gear, go for as close to 60 as possible / reasonable... leaving 15 resists here and 20 resists there adds up and results in a lot of EHP and effective sustain on the table too.

But to your statement that I bolded above. I don't think it's high on the list of priorities when people are shopping for gear. People prioritize DPS so much more than EHP -- I realize that this is how the game is structured, but I also believe that maximizing your EHP, maximizing your mitigation and therefore maximizing your effective sustain also means that it increases your effective DPS (since you spend a lot less time dying or running around). I have always been of the attitude that, wherever possible, not to sacrifice EHP (especially mitigation) for DPS. It's a philosophy that I've held from when I wrote my original gearing guide, and it's one that I continue to adhere to now and it has been serving me well so far.

As for your point about prices going exponentially higher as you close in on perfection... I think it's true. The price jump from 59 LR to 60 LR for the Inna's pants was interesting, to say the least at the time that I bought my current ones. But leaving 1 or 2 resist on the table is wholly different from leaving 15 or 20. It is also for this reason that I am choosing not to craft shoulders at this point in time, because I value my near perfect mitigation & vit rolls on my cheap VWs too much to go for more DPS and sacrificing those for a little more DPS.

05/14/2013 11:35 AMPosted by Piffle
But if it's not, and he's saying it's worth the extra money to get 10 more resists ... then at what point is it not worth a few extra resist?

There are times that, rather than paying more for resists, I'd sacrifice a little dex to get higher resists if the costs can remain somewhat similar. As I mentioned before, increasing my mitigation helps my sustain out a lot more, and all of these little decisions around resists and armor might make my 5.2% LS feel like a 6% LS on a more poorly mitigated monk.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 5/15/2013 8:18 AM PDT
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05/15/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Nameless
But leaving 1 or 2 resist on the table is wholly different from leaving 15 or 20.

What do you think is an acceptable amount of resist to leave on the table? Does this change if you the piece you're getting has AR instead of a particular resist?

There are times that, rather than paying more for resists, I'd sacrifice a little dex to get higher resists if the costs can remain somewhat similar.

How much dex are you willing to sacrifice for resist? Are you willing to sacrifice Vitality? What about specific dps affixes like xx-xx dmg, CC, CD, or iAS?
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05/14/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Nameless
No real secret or science anyway.

yeah all luck I guess but dang, some people have it more then others,
I typically do it by feel and about in batches of 20s at the end of my CoTA runs .. with 1 neph stack lol
I'll try it your way from now on .. 60-100 =)

regarding resist
when I search I normally search 12 point below max of All /Single Resist and see what kind of deal I can score
how do you normally search for it? 5 points below max? I see your gears are close if not already at the highest
and like what Piffle said .. what to sacrifice? or do you have a number that you don't go under for each of the stat? 45KHP 600AR 5Kamor?
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Piffle -- I'd love to hear your answers to your questions too... as I don't have conclusive answers yet... still just hunches

05/15/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Piffle
What do you think is an acceptable amount of resist to leave on the table?

When it comes to SR affixes, my search terms have been a minimum of 55, so I guess that's my answer. I basically consider how many items I am looking for SR affixes, and then multiply that number the difference between max SR and my minimum. In my case, I have 5 slots that have SR affixes in them. If my search term is a minimum of 40, then I'm basically saying that I am willing to leave 100 resists on the table in my gear purchases whereas if my minimum is 55, then the number is 20. I'm a lot more comfortable with leaving 20 resists on the table than 100.

05/15/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Piffle
Does this change if you the piece you're getting has AR instead of a particular resist?

I am actually contemplating this very question as I begin to consider the slots that I have just the SR roll and not the dual resist pieces and look for equivalent AR gear and thinking about what my minimum requirements are. I have seen that it gets extremely expensive the closer I get to the perfect 80, but 70 may still seem reasonably priced. Whatever number I choose, it needs to be clearly about 60, otherwise why bother eliminating OWE? There needs to be some kind of a net gain. Also, in my specific scenario, 2 slots (like Inna's pants and helm) at 70+ AR will get me to a touch over 500 AR (before considering my Int) which is the minimum I'd require before dropping OWE and STI for lower MP TR/Bell runs. I am also considering even keeping my dual resist gear so that the OWE passive still counts for something if I choose to put it back on.

05/15/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Piffle
How much dex are you willing to sacrifice for resist? Are you willing to sacrifice Vitality?

Truth be told, it really depends on what is available in AH. I don't have a definitive answer, but I can say that with my helm in particular, I don't think I'd be happy taking on 10 or 15 more dex if I had to lose equivalent resists for it. So maybe a 1:1 ratio? I don't know. It's a feel thing, I guess. As for Vit, I think I would be willing to sacrifice a little Vit for a little more mitigation and the reason being that I see vit as being something easily attainable in any other slot -- I can even swap out one of my emeralds for an equivalent amethyst if I really needed an EHP boost whereas resists, I am stuck with and there is no smart / easy way to upgrade resists short of buying a new item altogether (smart but not easy), or using topaz gems in my slots (easy but dumb). I don't have a specific number in mind, but I'd be using d3up to figure it out. I would still consider something close to a 1:1 swap.

05/15/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Piffle
What about specific dps affixes like xx-xx dmg, CC, CD, or iAS?

I dunno. That's a tough one. On my gear already, I am losing out on 0.5 ChC in my helm for my combination Vit, SR and Armor. If I had to add another 0.5 ChC, but had to give up significant mitigation for it, I doubt I'd take it. As I said earlier, it's my strong mitigation that I feel makes my life regen from LS feel stronger.

So, Piffle... right back at you. What are your thoughts about the questions you posed?

--

As an anecdocal thing, I did some group runs and public runs in MP10 with my monk and I positively felt tanky out there. I found myself in many situations that I would have expected to die when I was 100K less EHP (when I dropped STI for another passive) and I ended up surviving. At one point, I think I was dealing with nasty multiple ground effects and survived while others around me died. I think I was hit by 3 or 4 arcane beams and managed to survive that too (although I strategically spammed a WoL somewhere in the midst of that to get instant life regen) but still.. the mitigation really helped there too.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 5/15/2013 1:11 PM PDT
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Piffle -- I'd love to hear your answers to your questions too... as I don't have conclusive answers yet... still just hunches

So, Piffle... right back at you. What are your thoughts about the questions you posed?

I'm not sure! =P

I was more curious what your philosophy was. I think I tend to approach it more from a cost stand-point than from a "what I'm willing to give up" stand point. And keep in mind, most of my gearing up was done at a point where I wasn't fantastically wealthy and when there was a significant difference between 40 and 50 cold resist on a particular item. I mean, I paid 35 million for my Nats boots and they're pretty crappy - but they were a pretty good deal when I got them. And when I had cold resist on my Inna's pants, I remember spending almost a week trying to get a pair with at least 40 resist for just 20 million (I think I finally nabbed them for like 21-23).

And back when I was putting together sets, I was always under financial restraints so everything I bought was under the philosophy of, "how much resist can I get for X" rather than your general philosophy.

So I am mostly just curious because you view it in a different way than I do.
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I look at this whole topic slightly differently. I look at the OWE contributor as a "free addition" slot on gear that is otherwise pretty dialed in. Take my tunic and belt as examples.

On the tunic I wanted 250 VIT and high DEX. That only leaves one roll left on Blackthorne's, so I use it for OWE. It's great if it hits a high number, but if I try to cram a high number into there by default I often won't come up with a single search result.

Belt is the same story. I wanted decent DEX, decent VIT, and pick up radius. That again leaves one roll for OWE. And again, if I get picky with that number then I often get zero search results.

So I guess my question, which I have toyed around with, is would I be better off "selling out" for those high OWE stats and sacrificing a different stat on my search with the knowledge that if I do that, eventually I won't need an OWE stat on something so I can re-gain that stat back on another piece?

The primary problem with that solution is that the "free addition" OWE stats are just that ... typically free (or very cheap). Cramming more DEX or VIT on an already dialed-in item typically results in massive price increase. So from a budget perspective, I lean towards the solution that I wear.

Anyway, food for thought. Please note that my gear is stupid right now for my current build as I'm TRing with it and the OWE stuff is all one big waste. :-/
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Personally, my answer to the whole "what are you willing to give up for more resist?" question comes down to three numbers I use as a guideline: eLpS, DPS, eHP. Pretty much in that order of importance. Usually, I'm looking for items (or combinations of items) that are upgrades to all three.

To simplify, say I'm comparing two items with equal eLpS. (we'll hold eLpS constant for right now; it's a nebulous concept that requires a spreadsheet for me).

If EHP goes up 3% but DPS goes down 1% compared to the other item, that's generally a better item. Sometimes, as I get more lopsided one way, I may only accept upgrades in that direction. So I'll take an item +3% DPS, -2% EHP over my current set up but not -2% DPS, +3%EHP if I feel DPS is what I'm lacking. I might even take a complete sidegrade (+2%/-2%). But I've been pretty adamant about not taking a net loss. I'll be honest, it's getting a lot tougher lately - but I'm sticking with it.

It also helps to have targets. If I know I want 90K DPS, 1.15m eHP, 77K eLpS, then it becomes really easy to know if an item is getting me closer to that. Setting targets has been incredibly useful to me. I mean, how do you judge if a particular item will help you achieve your gearing goals if you don't know what your goals are?

The other thing that keeps me going in seeking high mitigation is that I love seeing that HP:EHP mitigation ratio in d3up going up. It makes me positively giddy. Because I know it's the main thing driving my eLpS. eLpS is my favorite. I can't ever seem to get enough. I'm really hoping I get up to a 16:1 mitigation ratio at some point, because I don't think Ive quite been there before.
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Alright. So back to this again.

05/15/2013 01:19 PMPosted by Piffle
I think I tend to approach it more from a cost stand-point than from a "what I'm willing to give up" stand point.

Back in the day when I was a junior monk and gleaning all sorts of information about gearing up my monk, I distinctly remember you writing something that said something like you always have to give something up to get something (when it came to stats), alluding to the idea that gearing is always some kind of a balancing act. I think I took that message to heart in building on my ideals around building a balanced monk -- a willingness to give up some DPS for EHP if it means that I can stay in fights for longer without dying, but not overdoing the tanking that it gimps my ability to kill significantly. I don't know how different our philosophies are... I think they are probably more alike than different, TBH. I know you don't play the game as much any more (which is a shame), but I'd be curious as to how your philosophy has changed over time (now that you are "fantastically wealthy"

--

@Thangdor
So I guess my question, which I have toyed around with, is would I be better off "selling out" for those high OWE stats and sacrificing a different stat on my search with the knowledge that if I do that, eventually I won't need an OWE stat on something so I can re-gain that stat back on another piece?

The primary problem with that solution is that the "free addition" OWE stats are just that ... typically free (or very cheap). Cramming more DEX or VIT on an already dialed-in item typically results in massive price increase. So from a budget perspective, I lean towards the solution that I wear.

Interesting perspective. So whereas I am counting on my SR rolls for mitigation purposes, your counting on AR and supplementing with SR. I suppose that's why items with 30-40 SR rolls are virttually free, while 50-60 SR rolls are a bit more expensive.

In my view, as a budget monk, it's too expensive to get enough AR on my gear that I not require SR items for gearing purposes. I have often found that in items with limited number of random affixes available (usually 1 or 2), AR is usually at least 10x more expensive than almost equivalent SR items. It's easier to swallow when items are only 5M or 10M for SR and 50M for AR. But when the SR equivalents are 40M and the AR equivalents are 400M, it gets progressively difficult.

Furthermore, I also operate on the no-wasted-affix principle whenever possible. I am very specific in my searches in that when I do my AH searches, I always specify what affixes I want on the random ones that legendaries offer. I often find that I have more affixes that I want on items than what is available, so I don't have "free" affixes to throw around. Perhaps it is because I am trying to get as much of my mitigation & HP requirements fulfilled in my non-BOA slots as I can, so that I have fewer EHP requirements in my BoA items. As far as I'm concerned, the only places in my gear that has room for "free" affixes are in my BoA items since I have little or no control over what I am given in those crafts.

--

@Demiwraith
Personally, my answer to the whole "what are you willing to give up for more resist?" question comes down to three numbers I use as a guideline: eLpS, DPS, eHP. Pretty much in that order of importance. Usually, I'm looking for items (or combinations of items) that are upgrades to all three.

I have a couple of things to say about this and would love to read what you have to say. I recall you saying that your EHP requirements are such that as long as you have enough to withstand some big blows, you should be fine, which is probably why it's the least of your priorities amongst the 3 areas you listed.

I would argue that it is according to playstyle. I think your ideas were formed in an era that the old cookie cutter reigned supreme, and in that playstyle, the eLPS was pretty constant throughout the fight - no big spikes up or down. But we have now ushered in the era of the big spirit spenders, and with that, the possibility of big swings in HP in the midst of fights, where going down into the red zone is not only tolerable, but still very manageable, as all many people would need to do is to drop one or two bells, and life gets almost instantly restored, even with a single LS weapon. In this case, the buffer that a higher EHP provides does make a difference.

Furthermore, the changes they have made to increased monster density also means that that there is likely more monsters attacking you at once, many of them can deliver some pretty big blows. In an era where eLPS can be pretty spikey, I think a flat out higher EHP is also more useful than it once was.

With that said, I'd probably still agree with the way in which you ordered those 3 items in that mitigation >>>>> HP as long as you don't sacrifice overall EHP to get to that point. But the distance that I think you once had between DPS and EHP has shrunk over time in this new D3 era.

Which is why I completely 100% agree with what you said here:

The other thing that keeps me going in seeking high mitigation is that I love seeing that HP:EHP mitigation ratio in d3up going up. It makes me positively giddy.

I love that my mitigation ratio is at 12.55x. I want it to be higher but I can't see how it can realistically go above something like 13. So how on earth am I going to get it up to 16 without gimping my DPS?!?!

And one last thing. Can you tell me how you would calculate eLPS again? I think you may have put together some kind of post a long time ago to figure this out, but I wouldn't know how to dig that up. I'm just wondering what are the factors that would go into this kind of calculation.

--

Silver32? Where are you?! I'd love to read what your gearing philosophy about this would be, as I also regard you as being one of the big gearing gurus of the monk forums! That's right, I'm calling you out!
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 5/16/2013 8:48 AM PDT
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Im trying to gear out of OWE. And it is VERY difficult on my budget.... Currently sold a WH for 150mil and I now have about 110mil left.... the thing I found out about dropping OWE, you need to start your AR searches at about 70 all res... and that kind of gear is hella expensive for a monk.
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Alright. So back to this again.

I think I tend to approach it more from a cost stand-point than from a "what I'm willing to give up" stand point.

Back in the day when I was a junior monk and gleaning all sorts of information about gearing up my monk, I distinctly remember you writing something that said something like you always have to give something up to get something (when it came to stats), alluding to the idea that gearing is always some kind of a balancing act. I think I took that message to heart in building on my ideals around building a balanced monk -- a willingness to give up some DPS for EHP if it means that I can stay in fights for longer without dying, but not overdoing the tanking that it gimps my ability to kill significantly. I don't know how different our philosophies are... I think they are probably more alike than different, TBH. I know you don't play the game as much any more (which is a shame), but I'd be curious as to how your philosophy has changed over time (now that you are "fantastically wealthy"

Yea, I basically said that if you have a limited budget, you're going to have to pick and choose what you get on gear. The example I gave was with boots!

As for how my gearing philosophy has changed ... I have enough gold, and my gear is already good enough, that I don't have to look at gear from a price perspective anymore. Like, back when I bought my Inna's belt with cold resist on it, I was trying to get the cheapest one with 30+ cold res and 8% holy damage, because I knew there was a lot of other stuff I needed to get, and 30 resist was enough for me. Recently, I've toyed with the idea of buying an AR one; if I were to go through with that, I would buy the one I wanted, regardless of the price (well, not completely regardless), but I'm at the point where it doesn't matter if I slightly overpay for something. I could spend 100 million on said Inna's belt and it wouldn't really impact my finances at all.

So in that regard, I've switched from "what can I get for X amount of gold" to "I want X and I'm going to get it."

I think I may have even mentioned this in my gearing post, but in the past I would generally set budget limits for specific pieces. Like, I wanted new Inna pants, and I was only going to spend 20 million on them. Or when I bought my OH, I wanted something with Dex, CD, OS, LS and 1.4 as ... but I didn't want to pay more than 80 million. (I actually slightly overpaid for my current OH, but it has lightning dmg, so I consider that worth it! :P )

Then again, that's an item where the most expensive ones are still well within my budget. When we start talking about items that are going for 1-2 billion, then I will have to go back and look at how much I want to do with my current gear and what makes the most sense.
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@Piffle,
WHAT? your OH cost 80 mill!?!?! when was this?
I just don't see it that's why (it cost more then my entire monk + gems) *edit: plus my back up sword which is on my WD right now*

05/16/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Piffle
So in that regard, I've switched from "what can I get for X amount of gold" to "I want X and I'm going to get it."

this statement is so very true ... in game and in life = )
Edited by QHTran#1403 on 5/16/2013 12:08 PM PDT
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