Diablo® III

202K DPS / 645K EHP: The Balanced Budget Way

Now go for the wildass budget build.

200k dps, 500k eHP, 5%+ LS, all while using a WKL, SoJ, and Inna's (stacked bonuses on Inna's and SoJ).

Try and pull that off for less than 1 billion and I'll be super impressed (not that I'm not with this feat.)
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I have a couple of things to say about this and would love to read what you have to say. I recall you saying that your EHP requirements are such that as long as you have enough to withstand some big blows, you should be fine, which is probably why it's the least of your priorities amongst the 3 areas you listed.

I would argue that it is according to playstyle. I think your ideas were formed in an era that the old cookie cutter reigned supreme, and in that playstyle, the eLPS was pretty constant throughout the fight - no big spikes up or down. But we have now ushered in the era of the big spirit spenders, and with that, the possibility of big swings in HP in the midst of fights, where going down into the red zone is not only tolerable, but still very manageable, as all many people would need to do is to drop one or two bells, and life gets almost instantly restored, even with a single LS weapon. In this case, the buffer that a higher EHP provides does make a difference


Yes, I'm probably a bit of dinosaur.

And I'm sure things are play style dependent. When I was originally doing more preaching of the concept, I did have about 500K EHP, which is quite a bit more than most. When I finally started doing VotA MP-10 clears I was at about 560K EHP (750K EHP with Keen Eye), 105K DPS. So it's not like ever had what would be considered a low-EHP build. I think the principal still applies: you need to mostly care more about the direct that your life moves in, and that any HP you have is just a buffer.

Maybe a bigger buffer is needed nowadays, particularly with a bell-based play style. However, I think a bigger component is having an I-don't-give-!@#$ level of DPS, so that you can actually end the fights pretty quickly, even at MP-10. If you're not taking more than 2 minutes to fight each elite pack, then sure, you can get away with the fact that your life is slowly trickling down during the fight. Especially if your DPS is so high that you're over-healing. Tons of EHP and DPS is probably the most efficient way of killing things quickly.

I've gained a more healthy respect for EHP lately. I am sitting at over 1m with a purple gem in the helm. But to "down into the red zone" is not "tolerable" to me these days for obvious reasons. But the direction my life is moving is still my top priority. It's my number one sign of survivability. Also, I play mainly MP-4 HC pubs lately, and spirit spenders are hard to use. First, I really feel like I'd need some spirit regen, especially for WoL, and I don't feel safe giving anything (even passives) up to stack it. Second, spirit spenders are iffy in HC pubs. Bells scatter everything. Cyclone strike is probably the best bet, but I am pulling everyone to me, so it's not like I want to give up a safety ability for that. I'm not even going to consider Exploding Palm.

So yeah... people's gearing philosophies are definitely influenced by their play styles. Mine included, of course. I think it's pretty cool the way that play styles and skill choices lead to different gearing goals lately.

And one last thing. Can you tell me how you would calculate eLPS again? I think you may have put together some kind of post a long time ago to figure this out, but I wouldn't know how to dig that up. I'm just wondering what are the factors that would go into this kind of calculation.


Sure. I just add up the following 4 things:
LoH * 1.5 * 1.25 * APS
LS * (A) * DPS / 5
LpSS * 6 * 1.5 * APS
Life regen.

(A) in this case is 5.5, a estimate for eDPS:DPS ratio of my build I basically pulled out of my %^-.

I take the whole thing and multiply by my mitigation ratio (about 15 right now). Pretty much just making a whole bunch of random assumptions about constantly fighting, ignoring dodge/block, etc. etc. I also ignore my LoK (which I'm thinking is actually quite useful) and HGB (which is barely noticeable)

If I was using different spirit generators some of those numbers would be different. 1.5 is the FoT haste modifier, 1.25 is FoT:TC's proc rate. 6 is the spirit per hit. If I was using quickening or spirit regen, I'm sure I'd throw in other factors.

The main use for me is not to get an exact number, but to get a relative one. If I know I'm at about 14% more eLPS with one set of gear, then that should mean I can roughly handle 1 MP up in terms of incoming damage. So I need to hit certain targets based on my previous play before I step it up.
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@Piffle,
WHAT? your OH cost 80 mill!?!?! when was this?
I just don't see it that's why (it cost more then my entire monk + gems) *edit: plus my back up sword which is on my WD right now*

No, it didn't cost quite that much, that was just the limit I set for it. But I did spend more on my pants than you did on your entire gear set :D

Belt too.

edit: My WH I mean, not my Inna belt.
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 5/17/2013 6:29 AM PDT
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@Piffle
It's interesting to see even how different people have different buying approaches. Since the days of my original guide, I have often preached the idea of incremental upgrades. I would be willing to buy subpar gear if it was purchased at a very good price. And then I would slowly buy better gear over time (using same principles) and sell my old pieces, often at prices equivalent or even above the cost of my actual upgrade, therefore keeping my gold balance at the end of the trade almost equivalent. And for the most part it has been working. So my guideline is a modified version of "what can I get for X gold", as it is largely dependent on what I perceive the market value is of my current equipped gear. My goal is to ensure that my gold balance doesn't drop too much after my upgrade.

This strategy has been working wonders for me so far. Except now I am contemplating a switch from and SR based gear to AR based gear. That approach no longer works, since it's getting into a different stratosphere of costs. I'm sitting at around 180M in gold, and hopes of some decent sales of my old gear that will bring me up over 200M. My desire to pick up two 70+ AR pieces (Inna's helm and pants) will likely cost more than that, so I will probably have to wait. But it will be really hard to drop 100M+ on items where I am still used to "only" putting down under 40M per slot.

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@Demiwraith
Thanks for eLPS calculations.

LoH * 1.5 * 1.25 * APS
LS * (A) * DPS / 5
LpSS * 6 * 1.5 * APS
Life regen.

What do the numbers mean? Like... what's 1.5, 1.25, 6, 1.5 represent. Haste modifier for FoT? Proc rate for FoT? Do those numbers change according to skill?

The thing with this calculation is that it fluctuates according to whether you are in combat, and even how many monsters you are fighting. But it's a good idea to see what influences your life return, even if it's a good approximation.

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@Pumblechuck -- raising the ante, huh? TBH, I don't even know if what you are asking for is doable for that budget. Your talking a lot of hidden DPS and gimped DPS/EHP gear. 200K DPS with a 6/25 WKL, dual LS, some kind of a decent SW SoJ (since that's where most of your DPS is coming from with any WKL based build) and an Inna's 4 piece set that essentially kills your hopes of a high mitigation / decent EHP build alongside a non-existent EHP SoJ is just... wrong in my books. I wouldn't even want to build a set like that since I would never want to play with it anyway. In my books, a 200K DPS set like that would effectively function like a 300K DPS set. For 1B? Not at these market prices. :)
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@Demiwraith
Thanks for eLPS calculations.

LoH * 1.5 * 1.25 * APS
LS * (A) * DPS / 5
LpSS * 6 * 1.5 * APS
Life regen.

What do the numbers mean? Like... what's 1.5, 1.25, 6, 1.5 represent. Haste modifier for FoT? Proc rate for FoT? Do those numbers change according to skill?


Yep.
1.5 - haste modifier
1.25 - proc coefficient
5 - inferno 20% LS nerf
6- spirit per hit
(A) - eDPS:DPS ratio

It's just an estimate the main point of which is comparing effectiveness of one set of gear's LpS with another set. I'd use different estimates for different skills (13.5 spirit per hit with quickening, for example). The exact result number doesn't really matter; I just look at the relative move. I know that when it's 70K-ish I can handle MP-4 so at 80K-ish I should be able to handle MP-5.

The thing with this calculation is that it fluctuates according to whether you are in combat, and even how many monsters you are fighting. But it's a good idea to see what influences your life return, even if it's a good approximation.


But, yeah... situationally there's so more to worry about than just the amount. You'd prefer to have more of it coming from some sources than others. Life regen probably gives the strongest sustain because you get it even when you're not touching the keyboard. LpSS is very strong because you can store it for when you need it. LS is not as good as those usually, by very nice for it's interaction with Backlash where having more enemies can actually mean healing damage faster (and again, doesn't require you do anything). LoH is probably the weakest form of sustain of the four: you only get it from punching things.

I'm paranoid about any situations coming up that I can't handle, so I my current gearing philosophy is to make sure that I have every form of sustain possible. So that whatever comes up, I've got some of the sustain that is better in that particular case. It's worked out OK for me so far.

(I've mentioned it before, but I'm always thinking about the worst case scenario and how to ensure that I'm prepared for all situations, even those that rarely occur, or I've never seen before. Gearing for "on average" doesn't necessarily work out too well)
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@Piffle
It's interesting to see even how different people have different buying approaches. Since the days of my original guide, I have often preached the idea of incremental upgrades. I would be willing to buy subpar gear if it was purchased at a very good price. And then I would slowly buy better gear over time (using same principles) and sell my old pieces, often at prices equivalent or even above the cost of my actual upgrade, therefore keeping my gold balance at the end of the trade almost equivalent. And for the most part it has been working. So my guideline is a modified version of "what can I get for X gold", as it is largely dependent on what I perceive the market value is of my current equipped gear. My goal is to ensure that my gold balance doesn't drop too much after my upgrade.

It's interesting, because I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "incremental", but always ringing in my head is something Morionic (I think it was him?) once said - "Sidegrades are the biggest waste of gold ever."

So yea, if your budget will only allow for smaller upgrades and they are actually upgrades, then by all means go for it. I've always been somewhat different though, in the sense that I have always held onto a fairly large budget. I remember back in the day, having ~100 million (which was quite a lot back then!) and waiting over a month to spend it because I knew the next patch would double the drop rate of set items/legendary items and that their price would plummet. By the time the patch rolled around, I was up to 200 million, but I didn't go crazy and spend it all. I think I spent half of it and saved the rest for future upgrades. Since then, I don't think I've ever been below 200 million.

Part of that is as someone who flips (or used to), having some portion of gold was necessary to continue making money. But the other part is that I just like having gold! :P
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whats so special ?
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05/17/2013 10:29 AMPosted by setsae
whats so special ?

Not everyone can afford marquise gems and lifesteal EFs, mate.
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05/17/2013 10:29 AMPosted by setsae
whats so special ?

Honestly, not a heck of a lot. Except I did it on a pretty restrictive budget. As a monk who has not used RMAH, and no flipping-for-income, this thread is meant to show that these targets can be achieved without necessarily breaking the bank or cutting corners as it pertains to survivability. I have come across a lot of posts complaining that upgrades need to be expensive at this gear level, and I am saying that it does not have to be so, using my own monk as an example.

@piffle @demiwraith
I will respond to those posts later. Hard to do this from my phone. :P but thanks for your thoughtful responses - it has given me more to chew on.
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Nameless : OK, I get it, I'm late to the party. =) It's been a hyper-busy week. Long weekend is giving me time to respond, however.

There's been a LOT of discussion in this thread : Is there something in particular you wanted my input on...?
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what is all this talk about 500k eHP? You'll get your !@# handed to you in MP10 with <650... and _I_ don't have 650 which is why I have to kite tough elites... they all DIE at the end of the day, but it's never 'facetank all'. Try 750k+ for facetank territory...
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Nameless : OK, I get it, I'm late to the party. =) It's been a hyper-busy week. Long weekend is giving me time to respond, however.

There's been a LOT of discussion in this thread : Is there something in particular you wanted my input on...?

Honestly, no worries. I just know that you had started an overall gearing philosophy thread a while back where you invited several of us to weigh in on some issues. I was just calling you out because, based on that stuff, you may be interested in what was being discussed over here. I just thought it was interesting in that it was about "budget gearing" for this next phase. :)

what is all this talk about 500k eHP? You'll get your !@# handed to you in MP10 with <650... and _I_ don't have 650 which is why I have to kite tough elites... they all DIE at the end of the day, but it's never 'facetank all'. Try 750k+ for facetank territory...

Honestly, I don't know. I think 500K EHP is a bare minimum and needs a lot of maneouvering if you want to survive some nasty battles. For this particular build, I am a CS monk for my party and I need to be a bit tankier so that I can survive where many others may die mid-battle. I like my 650K EHP and it'll be hard for me to give some of that up for DPS.

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@Demiwraith
Your approach totally makes sense since you are doing HC, and survivability is key. I'll need to bookmark your post in the event that I want to try the HC thing. I just think there would be way too much heartbreak if I lost a character for whatever reason. I don't know if I can take it. We'll see though.

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@Piffle
05/17/2013 08:46 AMPosted by Piffle
It's interesting, because I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "incremental", but always ringing in my head is something Morionic (I think it was him?) once said - "Sidegrades are the biggest waste of gold ever."

Incremental has always meant either a DPS or EHP upgrade (no matter how small) -- sometimes they can be considered sidegrades, but I don't find them to be wastes of gold, since my original purchases are usually at good prices, so I might end up netting more gold at the end of the transaction. But with that said, it's not often I do it... it would have to be strategic -- I'd have to value the stat that I'm increasing more than that one I am decreasing for this to work.

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AN UPDATE:
I just picked up a pretty decent Inna's Radiance for 15M on the bid (not a 1d11h special) and it's showing in my profile. I'm pretty stoked. It's about a 10K EHP upgrade (plus an increased mitigation ratio from 12.55x to 12.63x) on my old one while only about 100 DPS downgrade, and it's an AR one instead of LR. I am now at 203K DPS / 659K EHP / 5.2% LS.

I have one more item to replace before I can declare myself OWE free. The question is... where. I'm going for Inna's pants but not sure if I should skimp on the IAS for the sake of price. :P
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 5/20/2013 4:52 AM PDT
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I have one more item to replace before I can declare myself OWE free. The question is... where. I'm going for Inna's pants but not sure if I should skimp on the IAS for the sake of price. :P

If you view DPS stats the same way you view resists, the answer is a resounding no ;)
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I have one more item to replace before I can declare myself OWE free. The question is... where. I'm going for Inna's pants but not sure if I should skimp on the IAS for the sake of price. :P

If you view DPS stats the same way you view resists, the answer is a resounding no ;)

I don't know if I have much of a choice. 9% IAS 70+AR Inna's Pants are hella expensive, yo! I was watching an 8% IAS / 98 dex / 78 AR Innas pants bid up to 95M in the final seconds -- if it got sniped for higher, I would not know. But dang man, if that's what an 8% IAS pant goes for, I'd shudder to see what a 9% one would cost me. I'm only sitting on ~160M (with sales waiting that will hopefully total > 50M). If I want gold left in my account for other purposes, I might have to skimp on IAS to be ready to go OWE free.

I did some d3up simulations on my gear, and it looks like my EHP will remain above 450K if I go OWE free AND STI free. This would probably make life look more interesting if I drop a couple of MP levels and experiment with different passives and also when I go DE farming (after this EXP / MF / GF bonus is done) again, as I've been crafting more than I have in the past and beginning to run low on DEs...
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If you view DPS stats the same way you view resists, the answer is a resounding no ;)

I don't know if I have much of a choice. 9% IAS 70+AR Inna's Pants are hella expensive, yo! I was watching an 8% IAS / 98 dex / 78 AR Innas pants bid up to 95M in the final seconds -- if it got sniped for higher, I would not know. But dang man, if that's what an 8% IAS pant goes for, I'd shudder to see what a 9% one would cost me. I'm only sitting on ~160M (with sales waiting that will hopefully total > 50M). If I want gold left in my account for other purposes, I might have to skimp on IAS to be ready to go OWE free.

Well this goes back to my earlier line of questioning - what is the price of a 9% iAS 60 AR pair of pants compared to 8% iAS 70 AR? How do you value that extra 1% iAS vs the extra however much AR?

(in my example it's 10, but however much you could get for whatever you would be comfortable spending; i.e. if you only want to spend 95 million, what's the most AR you could get with 9% iAS vs 8% iAS?)
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Looks really good Nameless, should serve as an inspiration to many folks to have patience and try to win some bids instead of doing it the expensive way all the time!
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@Surly -- thanks for the props. I hope that this can serve as inspiration for monk who are on a tighter budget and have chosen not to just buy their way to this level of play...

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05/21/2013 07:36 AMPosted by Piffle
Well this goes back to my earlier line of questioning - what is the price of a 9% iAS 60 AR pair of pants compared to 8% iAS 70 AR? How do you value that extra 1% iAS vs the extra however much AR?

It's a good question. Given the same price, I think I would prefer more AR and a slight sacrifice to DPS. The thing for me is that IAS doesn't make my bells hit harder, and the extra IAS might even serve to be a slight impediment to me when I run TR/Bells every now and then to switch up the pace of my games. More AR means that I might be able to drop OWE (and STI) if I decide to drop a couple of MPs and solo with my TR/Bell build.

The other thing is, I don't look at one piece of gear in isolation. I also look at opportunity cost in other areas too. In my case, if I sacrifice 1% IAS (that will save me upwards of 100M) and I'm able to pick up a slighly poorer version of the Innas pants (I still want to maintain 70+AR, preferably >75), then the price difference can likely be put towards a better litany ring that will get me closer to 40% ChD AND I'll also get some gold back from the sale of my current litany ring AND the sale of my current Inna's pants, which will hopefully be worth more than what I paid for it). It would be a net DPS & EHP gain over both of those slots, I will likely have more gold left in my account at the end of the transactions, and all of my gold is not just splurged on one item to squeeze out that extra 1% IAS (which is only worth 1.5K DPS, vs. about 3K DPS gain from a sizeable increase in ChD in my litany ring).

Doing this tradeoff is probably what allowed me to get my nats ring at an affordable price. I think the equivalent ring with the missing 1% IAS would cost me a lot more than what I paid for my current one.

As for getting something closer to 60 AR... I don't know if it's worth it. I haven't looked in the AH yet, but the EHP gains wouldn't be that great and my all resists still wouldn't be at a threshold that I'd consider going OWE free, even if it's only a difference of 10-15 resists. I think in my case, I would be willing to sacrifice a little DPS for more mitigation and build my DPS slowly over time too.

As you said earlier in this thread, prices of gear seem to get exponentially more expensive as you approach perfection. And where I have other pieces that are far from perfection, there are other pieces of low-lying fruit that I can still address as well. But if you have other suggestions for me, I'd be more than willing to look into this -- I considered trying to crafting a chest and hoping for a decent AR/Vit/3 socket roll, but that won't help me if I decide to go OWE free while doing my TR/Bell thing... :(
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It's a good question. Given the same price, I think I would prefer more AR and a slight sacrifice to DPS. The thing for me is that IAS doesn't make my bells hit harder, and the extra IAS might even serve to be a slight impediment to me when I run TR/Bells every now and then to switch up the pace of my games. More AR means that I might be able to drop OWE (and STI) if I decide to drop a couple of MPs and solo with my TR/Bell build.

I would probably go the other way for one very specific reason - you can get AR on every single slot, but the slots you can get iAS are very limited. Now, maybe as someone who uses bells exclusively you care far less about iAS and so that difference doesn't mean much to you.

Looking in the AH:
The cheapest pair of Inna's pants with 70+ AR is 45 mill buyout (73 AR). The cheapest with 75+ AR is 75 mill buyout (75). Both of those have 8% iAS.

If you add in 9% iAS as a requirement, the cheapest 70+ is 130 (71), and the cheapest with 75+ is 155.

Assuming 2 AR isn't worth 30 million gold to you, let's use 45 million as our threshold. At 9% iAS, the highest AR you can get for 45 million gold is 64, though there is also a pair with 63 AR that is only 34 mill buyout.

Pretty interesting how all those numbers shake out.
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 5/21/2013 9:34 AM PDT
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Nice work on your Monk, Nameless! Let's smash up some MP10 again soon!
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nameless have u considered crafting a chestpiece and instead tryin to buy vit inna pants?

ie. 220ish dex, 180vit, 8-12 life%, 60-75ar, 2-3 sockets, and either armor or elite reduction would look quite splendid

as it appears most of ur crafts have worked out quite well for u so far, chest and shoulders are the last 2 pieces u can work on
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