Diablo® III

Demon Hunters fixed, a guide by Juicy (long)

That must have taken a significant amount of work. As a DH that just came back to the game, after defeating the game in 1.04 and playing a little bit when Paragon Level were introduced,that was incredibly educative and interresting - and in more ways than just giving your very solid and well spoken opinion about DH skills and gameplay.

Also, watching the numbers given to the monk's skill in 1.0.7 (especially Wave of Light - which I literally thought was a typo) give me hope that the damage % numbers of us DH will get looked at. Rapid Fire was given a good look, boosted, and now it's pretty much one of the very few skill we have that competes what other classes are playing with, along with Echoing Blast.

Granted, I think that while a few of your suggestions are a bit overpowered, they are mostly quite interresting takes.

The point where I have to agree with you is Hatred Generation. Now, I know most people run with Lyndon, but I'm going with Kormac, just because of that +1 hatred regen. I'm using a rune I thought would be more popular, Entangling Shot - Justice is Served, just for that, so that also, when I'm regenerating my hatred, I can also kite a bit. I'm not expecting to deal any damage whatsoever with that rune, though. I'm also running vengeance. The goal is to keep Rapid Fire up as long as possible. Works pretty well - until you start noticing I'm using 2 actives (ES+Bat), a passive and a dude that gimps me off 3% CC just for my goshdarned ressource. Other classes don't have to go such lengths to keep swinging.

Granted, I can vault in, tank up a big pack, kill it fast with sentries and Rapid Fire, grab the health globes and vault to the next lump, giving me fast farming abilities, but it doesn't feel very DHy to me. I literally play Rapid Fire as a melee ability. Then it dawned on me, I'm playing a very squishy Zeal Pally that only survives because of the snapshotting mechanic. Effective, yes, but I'll admit it does feel wrong. Strafe builds seem to function mostly the same way, with the important distinction that RF is a lot better at defeating elite packs.

I'm also not surprised Gloom is used by almost everyone. Even at 35% it's a lot better than anything else we have defensively. It was OP at 65%. Right now it's not OP, it's just that we're pigeonholed in a way of playing that makes us need to take lots of damage - and it's the best tool for the job we've got.

I hope Blizzard reads your post carefully, assess how far a DH can go and how far a Monk can go given equally powerful gear, and react accordingly in 1.0.9 - even if it's "Itemisation Patch (tm)". Your work desserves to be noticed.
Edited by MoveZig#1527 on 5/15/2013 6:44 PM PDT
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Nice read... Still learning the ropes of a DH, with me having issues with hatred and discipline upkeep i'll say very informative... TY

Bump....
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you should make a pdf and upload it, we can't read it...
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I'm sure I'll have some more detailed things to add later, but I do have a few opening comments:

1.) With as many classes and skills that need targets to "stay put," I'm concerned that your knockback skills won't see much use in multiplayer games. I got the impression that most of your testing was done in single-player, but with the obvious "push" by Blizzard for players to group up, do you suspect that these skills/runes would still be viable?

2.) You mentioned the need for dual-wielding to get some attention, yet none of your passives specifically augment dual-wielding. Looking back, do you think that you would change any of them to include specific benefits for using this class feature?

3.) You make the normative case that the Demon Hunter "should be" a more mobile, ranged threat. What would you say to the players who want to be "in the fray" more often, and might use ranged attacks less frequently? In short, do you consider play-styles different from yours to be invalid? ** Note that this is not an attempt to troll or offend; I truly want to know what you think here.
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Really impressive write up Juicypus. You really cover all the points we've been trying to get across to the devs for a while.

Ive written some feedback on the EU thread for you. Hope you have a chance to read it too. Oh ye, btw added your epic skill ideas to the EU DH sticky... i got a section for skill change ideas on there... your thread is EPIC for it :)
Edited by D3MON#2220 on 5/16/2013 12:41 AM PDT
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Great thoughts on skills & passives. Nearly 100% agree...
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i knew we were broken but damn...
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All I see is dribble. You want everyone to play at range (which is bias) so you've suggested buffs that suits your playstyle but you've added nerfs that affect tanking. The Whole Class needs a buff, Glass Cannons need a buff, Tankers need a buff, Balanced DH'ers need a buff.

You've made a big deal about Hatred Regeneration, you want everyone to play at range and then you profess your love affair with the Manticore. If you want to play at range then your using the wrong weapon. If your having Hatred Regeneration problems it's because your using the wrong weapon. The best weapon for playing at range effectively is the Calamity, hands down. Look at the best players in the Glass Cannon Clan, what weapon are they using when playing at range? I'll answer this for you, their using a Calamity.

You've made a big deal about proving your your position by number crunching. If the numbers in this game were actually meaningful then our pDPS would be accurate. Your using numbers from a flawed system to validate your position and as a result you've jumped to a misguided conclusion. We don't need more or faster Hatred Regeneration, we just need our Hatred to be more effective. We need our skills to generate more damage faster. We don't need more Hatred that just lets us use our under powered skills more. I don't want to use my big damage dealers more, I want to use them less. I don't want the ability to spam Loaded for Bear 20 times to kill, I want to kill by only needing to use Loaded for Bear 2 or 3 times.

I'm not going to get into your skill recommendations other than to say Entangling Shot Shock Collar is a awesome skill that just needs more damage. I use it regularly so I must be one of the 2 players that you mentioned. I'll end with a comment about Spiketraps. Echoing Blast is a great skill for standing in one place and tanking. If you want to use traps and play at range then Scatter is the one rune to rule them all. Just because you don't know how to use it you think its crap. You just need to learn how to use these skills, actually you need to learn how to play a DH before you make any recommendations.
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Yeah, I'm of the option that DHs should actually be a ranged class, but I really don't foresee that happening at higher MP levels unless they radically increase damage, or make it so our pets can tank, or make it so we can kite forever. Your skill ideas are cool though. I'm quite fond of more hatred regeneration, considering the other classes have an infinite resource and we're lacking in that department.

I suppose you will get some backlash for the anti-tanking stuff since it's the only build type that works in the higher MP levels. I guess when MP levels were introduced, DH design philosophy split between ranged for lower MP levels and tanking for higher MP levels.
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Very impressive analysis of the DH, his skills and his shortcomings.
Well done Juicy.

This raises a few more questions:

Will the devs read this?
If so, do they agree ?
If they do agree on any points will they implement some of the suggested mods?

An acknowledgment of any kind by the devs.would be nice.
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05/16/2013 03:28 AMPosted by Slay
All I see is dribble


You sir are a noob....

The OP was spot on with the majority of the issue's, and you sir are a total nub.
Edited by REVRAC#1267 on 5/17/2013 2:45 PM PDT
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If your having Hatred Regeneration problems it's because your using the wrong weapon. The best weapon for playing at range effectively is the Calamity, hands down. Look at the best players in the Glass Cannon Clan, what weapon are they using when playing at range? I'll answer this for you, their using a Calamity.


LOL....


We don't need more or faster Hatred Regeneration, we just need our Hatred to be more effective. We need our skills to generate more damage faster. We don't need more Hatred that just lets us use our under powered skills more. I don't want to use my big damage dealers more, I want to use them less. I don't want the ability to spam Loaded for Bear 20 times to kill, I want to kill by only needing to use Loaded for Bear 2 or 3 times.


You know you've just contradicted yourself? Manticore = Less Hatred Regen, Bigger Dmg.

When using calamity with EB on Ubers, you are always out of hatred when spamming EB. That's a class wide issue, i don't care which clan you are in, and how OP your mouse clicking skills are.

We don't have enough hatred due to our hatred spenders are too weak, so this is both a resource generation issue and a eDPS issue, can be fixed by either buff edps, buff hatred regen, or both.

05/16/2013 03:28 AMPosted by Slay
I'll end with a comment about Spiketraps. Echoing Blast is a great skill for standing in one place and tanking. If you want to use traps and play at range then Scatter is the one rune to rule them all. Just because you don't know how to use it you think its crap. You just need to learn how to use these skills, actually you need to learn how to play a DH before you make any recommendations.


Spike trap is actually a terrible skill. Where you biggest dmg relies on the mob being on the trap. I really only works well for mobs with Big Hit boxes, so you can consistently laid traps below them. In a farming setting, with constant movement, there will be missed traps, and there will be mobs that only get hit once. Considering the amount of hatred spent and its limitation, it is hard to argue that it is great. Even Face tanking has its limitations on MP 10. You have to move with Arcane Sentry, Plague Stacks, Molten Stacks, Charging Bulls, SK's Charge, etc, at 900K ehp with Perma Gloom + guardian sentry, I still have to move. My EHP is obviously not the best, i am sure there will be DH who can stand still out there, but most can't.. Unless you are standing still the entire time (aka, ubering with a CM), EB won't be fully utilized.
Edited by Killua#1993 on 5/16/2013 8:16 AM PDT
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All I see is dribble. You want everyone to play at range (which is bias) so you've suggested buffs that suits your playstyle but you've added nerfs that affect tanking. The Whole Class needs a buff, Glass Cannons need a buff, Tankers need a buff, Balanced DH'ers need a buff.

You've made a big deal about Hatred Regeneration, you want everyone to play at range and then you profess your love affair with the Manticore. If you want to play at range then your using the wrong weapon. If your having Hatred Regeneration problems it's because your using the wrong weapon. The best weapon for playing at range effectively is the Calamity, hands down. Look at the best players in the Glass Cannon Clan, what weapon are they using when playing at range? I'll answer this for you, their using a Calamity.

You've made a big deal about proving your your position by number crunching. If the numbers in this game were actually meaningful then our pDPS would be accurate. Your using numbers from a flawed system to validate your position and as a result you've jumped to a misguided conclusion. We don't need more or faster Hatred Regeneration, we just need our Hatred to be more effective. We need our skills to generate more damage faster. We don't need more Hatred that just lets us use our under powered skills more. I don't want to use my big damage dealers more, I want to use them less. I don't want the ability to spam Loaded for Bear 20 times to kill, I want to kill by only needing to use Loaded for Bear 2 or 3 times.

I'm not going to get into your skill recommendations other than to say Entangling Shot Shock Collar is a awesome skill that just needs more damage. I use it regularly so I must be one of the 2 players that you mentioned. I'll end with a comment about Spiketraps. Echoing Blast is a great skill for standing in one place and tanking. If you want to use traps and play at range then Scatter is the one rune to rule them all. Just because you don't know how to use it you think its crap. You just need to learn how to use these skills, actually you need to learn how to play a DH before you make any recommendations.


This sounds about right.
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Actually the most balanced view that I have seen so far in terms of "how to fix the DH"

My sense is that as every class is essentially a melee class in end game. It is unfair that only barbs and monks have innate damage reduction.

If Blizz does nothing but give DH a 30% dmg boost I will be happy.
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This perpetual discussion will never reach an actionable conclusion until players can agree to disagree, and make personal compromises so the class experience is fun for everyone's playstyles. Just too many biased opinions and suggestions being thrown around. And do you know what that leads to?

This:
05/15/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Oscar
unfortunately, as much information as you may have shoved into this 10 page essay of yours, Travis Day basically just said that they have no intention to fix DH beyond where we currently are because he doesn't feel we have issues.


Moreover:
3.) You make the normative case that the Demon Hunter "should be" a more mobile, ranged threat. What would you say to the players who want to be "in the fray" more often, and might use ranged attacks less frequently? In short, do you consider play-styles different from yours to be invalid?


@REVRAC

Always had respect for you, sir. You seemed older and more mature than most here. But name-calling, regardless of the circumstances, is not cool :(

05/16/2013 07:47 AMPosted by REVRAC
You sir are a noob....


05/16/2013 07:47 AMPosted by REVRAC
They are all noobs....


No it is crap nubcake

Go back to your pathetic "stepping" and taking 10x longer then needed to kill anything. The OP was spot on with the majority of the issue's, and you sir are a total nub.


/sigh
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@REVRACAlways had respect for you, sir. You seemed older and more mature than most here. But name-calling, regardless of the circumstances, is not cool :(


Yeah my bad I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, and should have explained my rationale behind the name-calling. But after reading the OP's very diligent review of DH's and saw "Slay" post " All I see is Dribble" I responded with a very juvenile response.

And GCG I do apologize for my remarks, "stepping" does take skill but it is just not for me. Granted I do it on a limited basis but would much prefer to tank large mobs for efficiency's sake.

One final point, I do not even farm on my DH post-patch because of our lack of resource management. It simply takes more time to farm with DH then any other class at high MP. Buff hatred or Disc or give us some skills that help with resource's.
Edited by REVRAC#1267 on 5/16/2013 10:34 AM PDT
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05/16/2013 10:27 AMPosted by REVRAC
@REVRACAlways had respect for you, sir. You seemed older and more mature than most here. But name-calling, regardless of the circumstances, is not cool :(


Yeah my bad I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, and should have explained my rationale behind the name-calling. But after reading the OP's very diligent review of DH's and saw "Slay" post " All I see is Dribble" I responded with a very juvenile response.


It's cool. Appreciate the follow-up. Take it easy.
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