Diablo® III

Demon Hunters fixed, a guide by Juicy (long)

Ok read it all, most of the suggestions were good. I do think you need to give an allowance for people who choose to play tank styles. Some people try to play a class against the intended design. If we all played the same way, that would get boring. Look at barbs for example they have overwhelmingly melee barbs but they do have niche range builds like throw barbs. Good game design accepts that people will want to play a class different from others and provide some allowance for that. So why I do want an increased incentive to play at range (and you've done a lot to address that), I don't want tank builds to be eliminated completely.
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There's too much to comment on, but I really liked a lot of the ideas like making thrill of the hunt buff "hunting" skills, and other passives giving buffs to certain skills.

Also the wolf companion idea is just amazing. Imagine if you summoned that thing, you would feel like some kind of crazed werewolf predator.
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XD...I Read the whole thing..and it took me one hour...lol..but ya...Hopefully the devs will read it ^^
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With regard to Sentries, OP said:

"-increase the damage from 175% to 455% (it's not that much since they can't hit criticals)"

My vote is simply to allow critical hits for Sentries. Unless I am mistaken, every DH skill under the Device category can get critical hits *except* Sentry.

Why??
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(havent read it all yet)

I used to play a DH but...barb is just easier, so thats giving me more fun atm :)

I have never played a DH in higher MP-levels but i can see some of ur points when playing together with other DH's

Nice work
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This post has been by far the best look into DH's I have read. I love the Idea of not having to Tank and yet be an asset to my Monk/Wizzard/Barb friends. Will this get fixed probably not; knowing Blizz their not in it for the long haul. I can see Diablo 4 coming out summer/fall 2015
Edited by Yaral#1121 on 5/16/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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Good read, OP. The DH class would be so much more fun to play with the changes you suggested. I want to play a mobile, fast-moving, hard hitting, if somewhat fragile class when I play with my DH.
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I salute you sir, for taking the time and effort to put this together. The single best post about Demon Hunters in this forums. I agree with everything, and I hope Blizzard reads this as well, and takes action. I LOVE my Demon Hunter, specially because I built a pretty unique DH, but I envy every single palyer I meet in public games because they have cheaper gear, lower paragon, and yet, generally have more DPS and survivability. If you want to add some ideas about the broken Demon Hunter Dual Wielding, we have some extensive threads on that regard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7200050405?page=10 and here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708992216?page=7

And please, everyone, upvote the OP post(s) and request sticky :-)
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one word for you L2P
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05/17/2013 12:38 AMPosted by Rianou
one word for you L2P


http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rianou-2120/hero/211055

I'm sorry, but I'm not too convinced :(

EDIT: Thank you for your effort to write the entire 5 words of criticism against my almost 47000-word post. It must've been consuming.
Edited by Juicypus#2757 on 5/17/2013 12:57 PM PDT
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05/17/2013 12:38 AMPosted by Rianou
one word for you L2P


Go back to your bridge......
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Iv'e given your thread a read and it's got quite a few good points about where the DH class is right now. Personally i agree that it's absurdly easy to be a tank DH with Shadow Power Gloom as it's hands down the best defensive skill in the game. But i personally think that if you add a coodown to this skill Life Steal (LS) itemisation needs to be improved as well.

Look at me for example i run a Calamity with a socket, it CANNOT roll LS with a socket and if i do go for LS on it i will gimp my dps. You have given a bunch of skills that have LS on them buffs and even given the wolf (how well he will survive i don't know) some LS, but this will still pigeon hole me into using either the passives or active skills that may not suit my build.

Eg; the hatred generators with LS which means i wont be doing dps with hatred spenders but with generators.

If i use brooding for LS this will take away a dps passive as well, taking away from being able to be glass cannon.

Also if i use aid sentry this is still supporting your tanking playstyle as if you leave the radius you will get no LS and die shortly there after. Would be good with a cm wiz though.

And the Wolf would need to be very tanky on high MP's to be worth the 4% LS other wise you would have to wait 30seconds to start getting Life back.

The lack of any LS on any gear that wont gimp our DPS is non-existant and this would need to be seen to in conjunction with any changes to Shadow Power. As an extreme example of your changes to LS skills would be an uber fight against SB & KULLE, you are only running wolf for LS, wolf then gets hit by a tornado, a falling roof and charged by SB. You now have no LS for 30seconds hindering the entire team. If we dont have any gear that can at least give us 3% LS on an item other than a weapon WE WILL STILL be pigeon holed.

The above being said i really like the idea of HYBRID skills that would be very fun to use requiring alot of skill in managing both of your resources to get the most benifit out of them and with legacy nats shrinking in number this wouldn't be abused by heaps of players.

Thanks for taking the time to write this post Juicypus it's good to keep on seeing players who are passionate about the DH class and want to improve it.
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This is so long it actually broke the page formatting.

Bump back to the top. Thanks for the time you took lol.
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Iv'e given your thread a read and it's got quite a few good points about where the DH class is right now. Personally i agree that it's absurdly easy to be a tank DH with Shadow Power Gloom as it's hands down the best defensive skill in the game. But i personally think that if you add a coodown to this skill Life Steal (LS) itemisation needs to be improved as well.

Look at me for example i run a Calamity with a socket, it CANNOT roll LS with a socket and if i do go for LS on it i will gimp my dps. You have given a bunch of skills that have LS on them buffs and even given the wolf (how well he will survive i don't know) some LS, but this will still pigeon hole me into using either the passives or active skills that may not suit my build.


You actually have a very solid point here. Hence I added a point #5 to the "Bonus Content" section inspired by this. Thank you.

EDIT: The cooldown of 7 seconds to SP was added only for the purposes of "Antitanking" because of Gloom. This 7 seconds leaves a 2-second gap between the uses of this skill and therefore lifestealing, unless you are snapshooting. This 7-second cd won't make a difference to builds that use Rapid Fire or Strafe for example. Even EB has a bit of snapshooting elements.

So this 7 seconds does not disable the skill at all. It merely restricts tanking a bit, but does not disable it entirely. For those who play ranged, this change is very unnoticed.

For those who feel that I've completely disabled the tanking elements of the Demon Hunter: this is not true. The only clear thing that I did that would cause some harm to the builds that are for tanking, was by adding that 7-second cooldown to SP. In exchange, I tried (and hopefully succeeded) to enhance other skills so people who would LIKE to play ranged, would be able to do so. That 7-second cd was added to SP, because:

- then tanking wouldn't be close to the ONLY viable build because of the constant dmg reduction
- I feel that only the melee classes should have a "permanent" damage reduction

This 7 seconds does not disable tanking or life steal at all. This only leaves a gap of 2 seconds. Tanking players could very well fill that 2 seconds with Shadow Power (it would cost less), or use Rapid Fire to snapshoot the life stealing for 2 seconds and then pop up the 35% dmg reduction on again for 5 seconds.

I hope that this would clear some things up a bit :)
Edited by Juicypus#2757 on 5/17/2013 12:33 PM PDT
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I'm sure I'll have some more detailed things to add later, but I do have a few opening comments:

1.) With as many classes and skills that need targets to "stay put," I'm concerned that your knockback skills won't see much use in multiplayer games. I got the impression that most of your testing was done in single-player, but with the obvious "push" by Blizzard for players to group up, do you suspect that these skills/runes would still be viable?

2.) You mentioned the need for dual-wielding to get some attention, yet none of your passives specifically augment dual-wielding. Looking back, do you think that you would change any of them to include specific benefits for using this class feature?

3.) You make the normative case that the Demon Hunter "should be" a more mobile, ranged threat. What would you say to the players who want to be "in the fray" more often, and might use ranged attacks less frequently? In short, do you consider play-styles different from yours to be invalid? ** Note that this is not an attempt to troll or offend; I truly want to know what you think here.


Thanks for the excellent questions! Don't worry, didn't take any offence :D

1. You have a good point there, I'll give you that. Yes, my testing of the skills was indeed done in single player; other players would've frowned upon me testing various skills and not actually doing anything useful :D
Having that said, Knockback could indeed be a problem in multiplayer -> replace that effect with "Rooting". Easy :)
Nice of you to notice!

2. I'm going to edit a suggestion to the main post about this matter soon. I'll include the edit information one comment below the main post.

3. The answer is a strict "no". I don't consider other builds than ranged or playstyles than mine to be invalid at all. But for players like me, who would very much like to play as a ranged character without the tanking elements included, it's not possible yet on a high monster power level to be efficient doing so. Please read the previous comment above that I wrote, that pretty much covers my point :)

I sincerely appreciate your effort to read the entire thing, I know it was a lot to read :) And I more than appreciate the fact that you took the time to think about the post and certain aspects of it. It's nice to see that the massive effort that I saw carries some fruit and that other players of this class are interested about this post :)
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All I see is dribble. You want everyone to play at range (which is bias) so you've suggested buffs that suits your playstyle but you've added nerfs that affect tanking. The Whole Class needs a buff, Glass Cannons need a buff, Tankers need a buff, Balanced DH'ers need a buff.

You've made a big deal about Hatred Regeneration, you want everyone to play at range and then you profess your love affair with the Manticore. If you want to play at range then your using the wrong weapon. If your having Hatred Regeneration problems it's because your using the wrong weapon. The best weapon for playing at range effectively is the Calamity, hands down. Look at the best players in the Glass Cannon Clan, what weapon are they using when playing at range? I'll answer this for you, their using a Calamity.

You've made a big deal about proving your your position by number crunching. If the numbers in this game were actually meaningful then our pDPS would be accurate. Your using numbers from a flawed system to validate your position and as a result you've jumped to a misguided conclusion. We don't need more or faster Hatred Regeneration, we just need our Hatred to be more effective. We need our skills to generate more damage faster. We don't need more Hatred that just lets us use our under powered skills more. I don't want to use my big damage dealers more, I want to use them less. I don't want the ability to spam Loaded for Bear 20 times to kill, I want to kill by only needing to use Loaded for Bear 2 or 3 times.

I'm not going to get into your skill recommendations other than to say Entangling Shot Shock Collar is a awesome skill that just needs more damage. I use it regularly so I must be one of the 2 players that you mentioned. I'll end with a comment about Spiketraps. Echoing Blast is a great skill for standing in one place and tanking. If you want to use traps and play at range then Scatter is the one rune to rule them all. Just because you don't know how to use it you think its crap. You just need to learn how to use these skills, actually you need to learn how to play a DH before you make any recommendations.


Everyone has a right for their own opinions of course, and I knew already before the release of this post that it would divide opinions.
However, I sorry to say that I don't see clear reasoning on your thoughts. I've provided solid proof included in my post about anything that I wrote, and many of the aspects are not my opinions at all, but facts. Please, be more constructive with your feedback.

As for your recommendation about the hatred regeneration and that I should switch to Calamity for better hatred regeneration: I clearly stated in my post, with solid proof to cover it, that it does not matter whether you're using a slow or a fast attacking weapon, the relation of hatred spenders to hatred generators is almost the same, and thus it only decreases the time between using the hatred spenders, but remember that now you're dealing less damage, but you deal more attacks in a shorter time span= +-0. I proved this, so I'm sorry, but your argument is invalid.

As I said about that everyone has a right for their own opinions, I really do think that way. Not everyone agrees with what I wrote. But your last few comments are plain juvenile to be honest. Criticism is very welcome, but straight out insults are not.

EDIT:
I'm not going to get into your skill recommendations other than to say Entangling Shot Shock Collar is a awesome skill that just needs more damage. I use it regularly so I must be one of the 2 players that you mentioned.


No you're not. Your rank on the Diablo Progress site is 2010 of Demon Hunters. It's a very good rank, but you can't fit the top 500 unbuffed dps softcore Demon Hunter ranking.
Edited by Juicypus#2757 on 5/20/2013 2:54 AM PDT
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I can agree to most things here, I like the idea of encouraging us to be ranged (30% dmg beyond 10yrds, making use of snares, traps, etc.). And I can't stress enough buffing runes up to par of others so you have a difficult choice as to which one to choose (such as what you have done), that creates build diversity.

A possible idea on how to address dual wielding? Most people like dual wielding for its quickness, it is lower dmg but what if DW allowed global cooldowns reduced by 15-30%, we lose the eHP to be able to use more abilities quicker, seems like a potential trade off (and fits a more action packed hero on the run).

Chakrams, along with your buffs, allow them to penetrate walls etc, to not disappear on terrain hit. That would still give the skill of the trajectory to hit where you want without the hassle of losing the skill all the time because of walls and pillars.

Agree with certain abilities shooting over wallers, i can remember evasive fire (covering fire) being able to shoot over wallers, which while i hated depleting all my disc in close combat, the trade off was totally worth it for the fun of shooting over walls and the reduced hassle.

Ps, give me a bat icon for my pet in the top left please. I am worried for rapid fire: fire support coupled with the Passive ballistics due to the 2rockets/sec with an aoe of 8yd's making bombardment not worth it, but excellent suggestions none the less, and would love to try em out.
Edited by boblin#1617 on 5/17/2013 1:06 PM PDT
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Ps, give me a bat icon for my pet in the top left please.


Bats don't have health bars, so I can understand why there is no icon for them - no need to keep track of their non-existent life loss.
Edited by Wobblefoot#1549 on 5/17/2013 2:01 PM PDT
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05/16/2013 10:27 AMPosted by REVRAC
And GCG I do apologize for my remarks, "stepping" does take skill but it is just not for me. Granted I do it on a limited basis but would much prefer to tank large mobs for efficiency's sake.


Since people don't have the money or the time to buy gears like urs and be able to combine EHP and DPS. Our GCB clan provides a fun group of people enjoying the DH the way it should be : a ranged class. We aren't noobs at all i know you kind of 'woke up the wrong side of the bed' but a player like you should think about what you are saying.. We are helping lot of players to gear up and play the DH. Stepping is the ONLY ONLY and ONLY way to use skills in D3 over mad crazy gears. It is a way for lower ehp DH to be able to play on high MP without any trouble.

I know you apologized but i would like you to delete your previous post.
If you dont know who I am, Im an admin of GCB clan and im the one who started it with DiEoxidE.
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...keep the comments constructive and the discussion civilized


Somehow I feel that I have to remind people about this. No offence intended of course, on the contrary.
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