Diablo® III

How do you beat WD Plague Bat's?

So I have been playing the other classes to get a better idea on how to play against Witch Doctor's. Let's just assume that the WD is using Spirit Barrage, Hex, and Plague Bat's but not Haunt. So the WD has Melee and Mid range attacks that are very strong. Plague Bat's range seems to be 30 yards which means it will cover almost an entire screen length. When you mix in that all it takes is one touch of the bat to take insane DOT dmg it makes it very difficult to mitigate simply with regen. It's only real weakness is it's high initial cost and that it won't go through walls.

Sadly the only way I have been able to kill WD's is by insane burst dmg. Either Bells or HoTa. I tried stacking CC reduction gear on my barb. It worked rather well at shortening Hex down to where it was much less of a problem. But it takes so little time for a WD to kill you it didn't really matter. Plus, I had to give up so many stats to get the CC reduction.

When you mix in WD great life regen, a shield, and a 100k dps it makes it very hard to actually one shot a WD outside of insane burst dmg from a Monk. If a WD goes full cheese (Haunt, Hex, Plague Bat's, EF, and Pets) it is nearly impossible to kill one.

I am really struggling to come up with a good gear and build idea for another class to compete vs WD's.
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05/22/2013 10:42 AMPosted by Ender
If a WD goes full cheese (Haunt, Hex, Plague Bat's, EF, and Pets) it is nearly impossible to kill one.


I concur, that cheese spread is too thick for most. As a DH against WD, the hardest time I have is when they go full EHP with massive regen tools (Healing Journey + Blood Ritual to name a few) and I just cannot burst them down before I run out of hatred (costs for hatred skills are too high for the damage they deal). This effect is compounded when the WD uses pets and the pets are very durable too.

The other hardest situation is when the WD uses Plague Bats, this very power skill is undodgeable, has instant velocity (like Evasive Fire) so that the hitbox is fully extended to 30 yards on the first frame, and applies a very strong DoT effect (think triple Rend damage) which cannot be removed and lasts longer than a smokescreen duration. If the WD goes with bats, DH has almost no chance anymore, even with counter-cheese builds like sticky traps. If the WD goes tanky, but does not use Plague Bats, there might be a chance for the DH with Rapid Fire or sticky traps. Overall, I think Monk has the strongest chance of beating a WD, but it relies on some luck and the new Fire Bats will eat Monks quickly too.
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Only way I have found on barb is to wait till wd spirit walks then pop ignore pain (IP) and Wotb insanity at the same time. Gives a 7 second window to kill wd where bats damage can be mitigated by IP and relentless and hota/rend has enough damage.

If you have less the 4mil ehp, your dead, Id say maybe 8mil ehp +150k dps could do it comfortably. But that that's like end game top barb stats at that level a wd might still do to much damage.
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As a wizard vs WD, I found that you cannot beat them with honorable tactics. If you stay on their screen long enough for them to make an action, you will lose. If you are in range to attack them, they are in range in hit you with a spirit barrage or haunt, both of those attacks do more damage than your attacks and are less obstructed by barriers. Wormhole is mandatory to create distance to avoid haunt and spirit barrage. When a WD joins the game, you have to teleport off screen and run until they start targeting someone else. Tap RoF, throw a meteor, then teleport away before he can react; he will chase after you and this will make him vulnerable to a monk or dh attack. When he kills the other player, distract him with with another cc and burst then run away so he tries to attack you and someone else can get his hp down to 10%. Or even better, wait until they trigger spirit vessel or use up a spirit walk, then snipe him with Ray of frost. Be aware, if he shoots 3 spirit barrages, it can take away all your health and the health after the anomaly if one of them crits.

When you see them use spirit walk with bats, teleport toward the wicker man, not away from it. This is because spirit walk does not provide enough time for the WD to walk to you and back from you. Enough distance should be provided if you stay out of the range of his SB and haunt. If he touches you with bats, you will instantly die. In summation, teleport away if he is spamming SB or haunt, teleport towards him when you see the wicker man, do not even bother to fighting him unless his spirit vessel has been triggered.

Think of the brawl more a survival match were you try to pick off melee classes before the WD does and see how little the WD can kill you. You can scavenge kills if the opportunity is right, but you will not be able to kill an opponent that can shoot 70 k crits through a wall and recast an auto aim DoT until a crit.
Edited by Weasel765#1161 on 5/22/2013 12:50 PM PDT
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After removing some Physical Resist (since WDs are using more poison these days) and adding Poison Resist, I've been able to carry a skorn and have been slightly successful at killing some WDs with HotA while staying away from the bats. But this is only true for WDs that have sacrificed too much ehp and have gone with more dps.

Any WD with PvP experience and balanced gear and build is very difficult to kill just as you guys have described.
Edited by arndawg#1193 on 5/22/2013 3:16 PM PDT
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Haunt hex bat dead....

I've been getting lucky with the new rapid fire buff sometimes in my glass canon setup.
440k with arch & steady aim. With ballistics the fire support rocket rune can make the rockets
crit over 900k, and they also shoot behind you and around trees and walls.
I use it with immenent doom bolo and fan of knife hail of knifes. With that build it
gives me 3 attacks that can crit at 900k. Need to be sneaky and hit max blast.

Now in that build my ehp is absolute crap, but at least I can get in a win here and there.
In tank build I live a lot longer, but don't produce the quick killing damage I need.
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2 dhs will beat a wd. ;)

or a super tank dh 2m+ ehp w/ 28% e reduc.


Tank DH's are at a disadvantage, since discipline is very limited for these builds.

These tanks are simply food for Plague Bats. The damage this time around is untankable thanks to the bat's ridiculous damage multiplier and range. (Thanks blizzard!~)

There is nothing worse than a charging 100k+ dps uber tank WD's with a complete set of minions that never back down. Good luck with that.

The addition of amplified bats to their arsenal fills the slot of "ultimate tank breaker" next to the amplified bell nukes. (applause~ blizzard)

Top WD > Top DH

Destroying a tank WD is ridiculous. Sure you can get a lucky kill with the right gears (right meaning the best in raw single shot expensive DPS gears), but you'd have to die 20-30 times at least against good players. rofl

They are the epitome of offense and defense in this patch.
So for the thread, the answer is: You can't. Especially not at gear perfection level anyway. :D
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 5/23/2013 6:41 AM PDT
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They are the epitome of offense and defense in this patch.
So for the thread, the answer is: You can't. Especially not at gear perfection level anyway. :D


^^ , I also believe that Blizz has seen this which is why they have mentioned single elemental resists should be at least doubled, which I'm sure will give monks a better chance against WDs when an itemization patch finally gives us enough poison resist. 1500+ poison resist, 28% reduced elite dmg, 7k regen, maybe can have a chance surviving against the batman.
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^^ , I also believe that Blizz has seen this which is why they have mentioned single elemental resists should be at least doubled, which I'm sure will give monks a better chance against WDs when an itemization patch finally gives us enough poison resist. 1500+ poison resist, 28% reduced elite dmg, 7k regen, maybe can have a chance surviving against the batman


no it wont, im paraphrasing but they said maybe it will boost to single resist form 60 too 100 but an item with single resist will not roll with all ress anymore, currently you can get 80 all ress and 60 single resist on the same item for a total of 140 against the single element, it looks like a buff but its a nerf. A big nerf. WD will reign supreme for a while longer.
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05/23/2013 09:53 AMPosted by arndawg
single elemental resists should be at least doubled


At first glance, this solution looks like it would help. Wizards squish, among many other reasons, because their main form of mitigation is resistance. However, the WD's main form of mitigation is also resistance since intel is their primary stat. Doubling elemental resistance will benefit the WD and make them more of a problem in PvP.

The only thing that can balance PvP is to give it different mechanics than PvE. Changing numbers specific to classes is the only way WDs would not benefit from something meant to benefit another class. For example, wizards take less damage from all attacks while WDs take more; or Ray of frost is multiplied by 1.5 of its PvE value while bats are reduced by half.
Edited by Weasel765#1161 on 5/23/2013 1:40 PM PDT
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Not sure Elemental Resists need a boost as much as the Armor Roll. 250 Armor roll is always worth less an 80 res roll. With the 400 armor roll closer to 80 res in some situations. Every item should be able to roll 400 not just Jewelry, Chest, and Pants.

I recommended for the VC tournies that all DOT skills that stick to players be banned. PvP is simply turning into getting a crit DOT than retreating. It is fairly large boost to DH's due to higher dodge. But all non-dex classes should be aiming for 500 dex(20% dodge) regardless.

I am playing my WD with no DOTs and still doing good. But the matches are much closer for other classes. Wiz gains leaps and bounds when it doesn't have to deal with DOT dmg. Vampire Bat's does good dmg without the DOTs. No chemical burn for DH"s vs Monks helps Monk's against constantly get crit burn dmg even when they dodge. Barbs will have a more difficult time vs DH's though with no Rend. I played pretty well with a Barb vs DH by using a ranged build.

It also helps stop the tilt from getting insane EHP simply to counter act DOT dmg.
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Very good suggestion Ender, and I have met a few people that politely ask me not to use Rend so I've switched to Bash + HotA for those cases and it is more fun.

I'm not sure how other classes without DOTs would deal with a high mitigation & regen opponent.

@DeadLegacy , that's a bummer if they do nerf it.
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@Ender

Now that we are on the discussion of DoTs, lets examine the two weaker DoTs and see why they are weak. The 4 OP DoTs are bats, haunt, rend, and chemical burn. The two weak DoTs are blizzard and exploding palm.

Blizzard is weak because you move out of the area it where it was casted and the effect is gone. What gives an advantage to a DoT over a burst is that it can effect an opponent when they run away, blizzard cannot do this.

Exploding palm does a lot of damage but it is not OP. When it crits, it does not drain health fast like the 4 OP DoTs. When I get hit with an exploding palm, I can wait to see if it is worth breaking before all my health drains too fast for me to respond. This is important to consider because wizards only have a limited number of cc breaks and we typically receive DoTs from all 3 players in the brawl.

You only have a limited number of cc breaks while WDs, DHs, and Barbs can perform a nearly infinite number of DoT attempts. Thus, if they do not get a critical, they will just recast the DoT until they do so, and it will effect you regardless of the availability of your cc breaker. To make matters worse, a DoT crit from an OP DoT will drain your health to zero before you have time to respond. So, if you wait to see if it is a crit, you will automatically die. Therefore, you have to break every time you get DoTed because it might be a crit. Exploding palm does not do this fast drain when it crits but it still kills opponents better then blizzard.

Chemical burn is really annoying. You get the DoT if the impact misses you and if it crits, it will do a fast drain. So you have to use your cc breaker every time an impale comes near you because if the DoT crits and the impact misses, all your health before and after the anomaly will be drained before you have time to cc break, even with 100 k hp.

So how should existing OP DoTS be modified? Blizzard defeats the purpose of a DoT, you move and it stops effecting you, the OP DoTs should not have this happen. All DoTs should not do a fast drain on a crit like, their mechanics should be changed to that of exploding palm. This is because they could still kill, but they would not be completely nerfed.
Edited by Weasel765#1161 on 5/23/2013 6:34 PM PDT
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I think compared to bats all other DoTs are fine.

(Question, why the hell does bats stick like a DoT too? rofl.)

Barbs and some monks can tank/avoid impales well. They can be countered and they can serve as a hard-counter to some classes too. Truth be told, i fear those bells much more than i would fear any other DoT skill aside from bats.

Regardless, there is indeed an issue with ridiculous damage multipliers on various skills such as the one implemented with Fire Bats.

I do not understand why they have a DoT that seems much stronger than rend, an instant damage multiplier much stronger than Fan of Knives, an instant execution range like Evasive Fire, and a near infinite casting sustain like Rapid Fire.

Seriously, what gives Blizzard?
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 5/23/2013 7:26 PM PDT
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As a wizard vs WD, I found that you cannot beat them with honorable tactics. If you stay on their screen long enough for them to make an action, you will lose. If you are in range to attack them, they are in range in hit you with a spirit barrage or haunt, both of those attacks do more damage than your attacks and are less obstructed by barriers. Wormhole is mandatory to create distance to avoid haunt and spirit barrage. When a WD joins the game, you have to teleport off screen and run until they start targeting someone else. Tap RoF, throw a meteor, then teleport away before he can react; he will chase after you and this will make him vulnerable to a monk or dh attack. When he kills the other player, distract him with with another cc and burst then run away so he tries to attack you and someone else can get his hp down to 10%. Or even better, wait until they trigger spirit vessel or use up a spirit walk, then snipe him with Ray of frost. Be aware, if he shoots 3 spirit barrages, it can take away all your health and the health after the anomaly if one of them crits.

When you see them use spirit walk with bats, teleport toward the wicker man, not away from it. This is because spirit walk does not provide enough time for the WD to walk to you and back from you. Enough distance should be provided if you stay out of the range of his SB and haunt. If he touches you with bats, you will instantly die. In summation, teleport away if he is spamming SB or haunt, teleport towards him when you see the wicker man, do not even bother to fighting him unless his spirit vessel has been triggered.

Think of the brawl more a survival match were you try to pick off melee classes before the WD does and see how little the WD can kill you. You can scavenge kills if the opportunity is right, but you will not be able to kill an opponent that can shoot 70 k crits through a wall and recast an auto aim DoT until a crit.


This is all true and has been tested by me with 240k hit points on 94P wizzard. Unless you somehow double-team the WD, he'll trash you even if he's wearing the sheetiest gear on East. Whatever happened to the 17k blizz from D2...unless you had ravens and a saphire shield it was pointless for you to even go out there lol.
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I think compared to bats all other DoTs are fine.

(Question, why the hell does bats stick like a DoT too? rofl.)

Barbs and some monks can tank/avoid impales well. They can be countered and they can serve as a hard-counter to some classes too. Truth be told, i fear those bells much more than i would fear any other DoT skill aside from bats.

Regardless, there is indeed an issue with ridiculous damage multipliers on various skills such as the one implemented with Fire Bats.

I do not understand why they have a DoT that seems much stronger than rend, an instant damage multiplier much stronger than Fan of Knives, an instant execution range like Evasive Fire, and a near infinite casting sustain like Rapid Fire.

Seriously, what gives Blizzard?


Oh but Barbarian's having 4% Regen is just TOOOOO MUCHHHHH...

I'm just so glad we have Blizzard to properly balance this game.

Oh. Wait.
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How do you beat a WD? Well, you would need to balance PvP firstly. Also, since so many WD's cheated to get their Paragon lvls up, expect to be at an even greater disadvantage, even if you outgear the WD. The fact is, their spells are all overpowered for PvP as the game stands now. Your best bet with any class is to one shot the WD forcing their "cheat death" spell cooldown, then running away and surviving dots until you can land the killing blow after they come out of invisibility within the next 30 seconds or so before they heal.

if the game is balanced, everyone would be better off. Here is what needs to be done next patch:

ALL dots should simply never crit in PvP. That change will fix a lot of things in PvP right away for all classes. Dots should deal consistent damage over time, putting a slow drain on another player, which chips away constantly and negates life regen/healing, not insta kill players with solid defenses after a single application. Additionally, dots could be made to have disabling affects or remove invisibility to compensate for the loss of damage to players.

ALL damage from any critical hits of any kind should be reduced roughly 50% in PvP. If dots are going to be weaker, we cannot just have pure burst damage builds dominating everything, and as it is now, we all know which skills basically one shot most players. Those million damage crits need to be adjusted somehow. Every class has spells which hit way too hard, lets fix the overkill a bit.

PvP damage overall should be reduced a bit more. 35% for melee and 30% for ranged was a start, now it needs to be balanced further. 45% for melee and 40% PvP damage reduction for ranged would improve things considerably and would not be too extreme a change.

Lastly, defense needs to be changed. People do not realize that even with incredible armor and resistances, anyone can still be killed by a player with "good" dps in brawling as it is now. The truly super tanky players who are practically immortal also stack elite damage% reduction, and melee/ranged damage% reduction on their gear, which on top of the reduction they get from armor and resists + blocking, negates far too much damage from other players. Brawling overall would be far more balanced if items with elite damage modifiers no longer counted towards players in PvP. At least reduce the effect of elite damage/elite damage reduction to balance things out if it is not removed completely. One way to balance elite modifiers without removing it completely would be to have it only affect partial damage on critical hits, giving it value but not making it overpowered like it is now.

Crowd control effects with long durations should be limited vs. players, mainly Hex, which guarantees death for the player hexed if they have no immunity or cc break spell that works on it. No other cc skill in the game lasts half as long as Hex does. It is obviously too powerful vs. players in comparison to all other cc spells of each class.

these sort of fixes should be tested on the next PTR to advance brawling past the infant stages, and maybe we can have some decent PvP in the future.

until then, WD's are overpowered compared to all other classes and just be glad if you come close to killing one with decent gear who isn't just toying with you.

the other solution of course is to gank them when they are fighting someone else. but we all know that doesn't really count.
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You want to increase dmg reduction and reduce crit dmg? Barbs would be unkillable with Relentless.

PvP should be elites as it gives incentive to use SoJ and adds value to other wise nearly useless stat reduce elite reduction.
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05/26/2013 12:08 AMPosted by UGotGanked
ALL damage from any critical hits of any kind should be reduced roughly 50% in PvP.


I agree with the suggestion, but 50% crit damage reduction would not be enough when impale is criting for 1 mill.

05/26/2013 07:57 AMPosted by Ender
PvP should be elites as it gives incentive to use SoJ and adds value to other wise nearly useless stat reduce elite reduction.


I disagree with this because it homogenizes gear choices. Yes, it gives incentive to use under used gear like SoJ and BT's, but now you have to use that gear to stay alive and be able to kill. Also, SoJs make you more of a glass cannon in what is already a 1-shot fest because it gives nothing to ehps. Furthermore, BT gear has adventuring slots that are wasted in PvP like gold find and magic find. However, I do think cc reduction applied to players classified as elites must stay so people aren't perma-stunned.
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