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Hi OP, awesome to see Frostburn gauntlets :-). Can you tell me how play at MP10 is? If it is worth playing in MP10 i am in :-).
If you are not able to farm MP10 with over 300k DPS and a RF build, you are not getting enough eHP on your gear.
Anyway love the idea of a frost DH. Make sure you are using a scoundrel with Buriza to ice the cake. :)
Yeah, my ehp could use a boost at this point. I would die too much and seemed like I killed far too slow solo mp10. That 316k dps was only after archery and steady aim tho, and since with RF you always end up tanking I pretty much never got to use steady aims bonus. So thats why I wanted to come up with a more efficient build that also is hits like a truck
Steady Aim is a worthless passive for RF Bombard builds, don't know why anyone uses it. The only time I use it is for ubers. I was actually messing around with ice arrow last night trying to see how viable it would be. I think it's good, but it just sucks that it's not *as* good as RF. I did like it though, so I am currently building a set for it.
Stupid people like me run steady aim with RF-B because we see the huge DPS increase and were like "oh we got caltrops/vault, we can keep them away" but it just never works. I swear no matter how well I would round up all the mobs, there would always be 1 straggler that would stick to me and ruin the passive.
In terms of RF being better than FA, that's obvious or else everyone would be firing off FA instead of RF, but in terms of specializing its much cheaper and easier to spec for ele arrow and cold damage. RF DMLs are freaking expensive. The way I see it you can get FA to hit harder or just as hard as RF while also providing creep control for much less gold. Plus I just really like that creep control. I switched to ball lightning last night to run act 2 KW and not only did my dmg take a hit but you have no slow. For white mobs it quickly becomes another RF-esque tank fest, once again losing out on steady aim. BL works wonders for act 2 kw and slow missiles elites tho
Yeah, I can definitely see the advantage in ele in act 2, as hitting those fast affix already fast elites is hard with RF-Bombard. I usually use either stun bola to kill them or have been messing around with chain gang to bombard which has been working out well.
FA works for everything in act 2 just fine, its just that ball lightning absolutely destroys the act 2 key warden, I have actually been funneling mobs and elites into his missile shield and just watching them melt away.
Im in the process of updating the guide as last night I bought a +ele arrow skull grasp and all of a sudden MP10 is viable, and when I say viable I mean I am slicing through it pretty well. I was never able to do this well with my old build.
gimme some time and I'll update it, kinda at work right now :P
updated the guide to include my current progress. also I have a question for you guys about calculating my deeps
so from what I have gathered from google the +12% EA bonus is stacked at the end of your dps.
Like if you have 200000 sheet dps and +12% EA damage then its 200000 * 1.12 = 224000
is that correct?
if it is then my crafted gloves SHOULD be giving me 20k more DPS, but the frostburns still seem to kill faster and in essence help me live longer. The frostburns definitely hit harder, but the attack speed is what takes the biggest hit and is what I assume is accounting for the calculated difference.
Are the frostburns actually working better because this is a kiting build and its better to fire off harder hitting shots and run while conserving hatred, which essentially means they are more efficient, or am I just crazy and biased cuz they are too damn cool on a DH?
281k dps with crafted gloves with +35% EA
281k * 1.35 = 380K FA DPS
220k dps with frostburns with +35% EA and +35% cold skill ( i assume this stacks the same as +EA%?)
220k* 1.65 = 360k FA DPS
The frostburns come out lower but still seem better, i think im stupid
If your thinking my deeps could be higher dont forget the SoJ 30% bonus to elites. I could get a trifecta there but it just hits elites so hard :)
Edited by Moosentist#1655 on 6/7/2013 10:17 PM PDT
its in act 5, the secret act
anyways, I am having an absolute blast playing this build. last night I was up playing pretty late (and a little inebriated) and I decided to farm one game at mp7. was running through it and feeling like this build was just a little too slow as it was takin awhile to get some of the mobs down. I finished festering woods a little disappointed, and then I realized it was mp10. woops. So I finished the run pretty happy and immediately fell asleep.
I ran the whole act using EF/FA and i have to say, im really liking EF (evasive fire) as a hatred generator, it generates 4 hatred per shot, can hit multiple opponents (covering fire) or put extra distance (displace) to reeeeaally help in kiting and get that steady aim bonus
Edited by Moosentist#1655 on 6/8/2013 5:57 PM PDT
Yeah and it is also boring and the delay on bombardment is retarded. All the other runes are weak against groups.
Anyway, I've been messing around with this on my other account and I have 85k paper DPS, but the elemental arrow crits are as high as 200k on regular mobs.
I got 6%/30% Frostburns, 14% Dead Mans, 10, 10, and 10 on the SoJ, Skull Grasp and Mara's. So that's another 12% total I can get if I can find a max 14% for all three of those slots. Also the remainder of my gear is budget stuff with magic find on it. Honestly if you get max + Elemental Arrow damage and high end gear in the rest of your slots this is a very viable build. Oh and the best part is you actually move around and play from range like a DH is kinda supposed to.
I went with a Calamity mainhand for the fastest possible attack speed. Oh yeah and I found a Blackthorne's Notched Belt with 4.6% chance to freeze which coupled with my freeze Enchanter is a nice permafreeze combo when they proc.
I really like it thus far and I'm going to keep trying to improve it. The only issue I have with it overall is that it burns hatred very quickly and I have to use Bola a lot to supplement. Preparation-Punishment isn't an option since you need to save your discipline. I use Caltrops-Bait the Trap and Shadow Power, so discipline management is a must.
I don't use Steady Aim because a lot of times in higher MPs you get monsters breaking through. It seems like a waste, but is probably good for group play.
Im really glad you liked it! I too use calamity and I too have hatred issues sometimes. I lowered my attack speed some and changed to evasive fire/covering fire and for now its really working out. It generates 4 hatred per shot, which is a little faster than bolas 3. Plus it backflips me 15 yards giving me the steady aim bonus instantly. Paired with caltrops and FA's slow I havent had much of a problem maintaining steady aim. I kill pretty fast though, critting whites up to 600k so maybe you just need to get your damage up a bit. It is indeed very fun actually being mobile, running around and dropping big crits :D
edit: scoundrel with windforce or buriza helps a ton. I really like WF as it pushes them out of range and helps with steady aim
if your only using frostburns (based on your gear, I could be totally wrong) then you wont get the maximum out of this build. You really need an EA DML and SoJ at least alongside them. I kept testing this and RF kept winning out until I hit a certain +%Elemental Arrow, then FA hit a breaking point where I was getting more damage out of it than RF.
I solo MP8-10 with this gear btw
Edited by Moosentist#1655 on 6/10/2013 2:07 AM PDT
I like Bola Shot-Bitter Pill for the disc regeneration, and as much as I love Evasive Fire-Covering Fire the backflip can actually get you in to trouble depending on where you are farming. If you port in from a waypoint and haven't cleared the map yet, you might find yourself back flipping in to more monsters, and if you keep spamming evasive fire, it will probably happen a few times before you realize what happened. Hardened is an option, but one shot for 130% weapon damage is pretty weak.
I'm still playing around trying to get a feel for what skills/rune combos I think are best for the build.
Shadow Power-Gloom : Absolutely must have, even with playing a distance build there are times when you need the damage reduction, and more importantly the life steal.
Elemental Arrow-Frost Arrow : Obviously the focal point of the build.
Companion- Bat : Must have for the hatred regeneration.
--- After this it becomes less clear what is the best options for skills. ---
Hungering arrow is a good single target DPS generator with the Devouring Arrow rune, but honestly when you start talking monster power there are so few times single-target is a good idea. Even with the piercing effect, if you are out of hatred and need to do some damage for the SP lifesteal proc, this is not a good choice. Spray of Teeth is decent AoE damage, but not good enough to beat out Bola Shot.
Entangling shot with Justice is Served is the single best hatred generating option we have along with Grenades with Tinkerer. Despite the fact the damage is insanely low, the fact you can fire off a few shots and go back to spamming Frost Arrow really makes up for it. It would be tough to use under pressure situations where you need lifesteal, but I think overall this is a very strong option for a hatred generator.
Bola Shot is great with Bitter Pill or Imminent Doom depending on your discipline usage. I've personally been using this as my hatred generator with every end-game build. The AoE DPS is great and extra discipline is awesome as well. This is also another strong choice. If you can fit Preparation in your build, relying on Bitter Pill is not as necessary.
Grenades with Tinkerer provides another strong option for hatred generation, but honestly Entangling shot has more synergy with the build since the snare works with Cull the Weak. It does slightly more damage, but I don't think that makes up for it. I would go with Entangling Shot instead every time.
Evasive Fire is a more interesting choice. the added element of a back flip works well in conjunction with steady aim and it sits right in the middle as far as hatred regeneration is concerned, at 4 per. Hardened is a good rune option since it eliminates the risk of back flipping in to more monsters and removes any discipline costs.
Caltrops, Preparation, Rain of Vengeance, Vault and Smoke Screen all make great cases to be supplemental skills in this build. If you use evasive fire with the back flip, you do not need Vault. Smoke Screen is very situational and in most cases you should be avoiding being in a position to need an "oh crap!" button. Caltrops has great synergy and the extra 10% CC from Bait the Trap is awesome. Preparation is like Bola Shot - Bitter Pill in that you only need it if you are using a lot of discipline which I find myself doing on elite packs to keep up the life-steal. Rain of Vengeance with Beastly Bombs packs a ton of punch and makes for a great, no-cost AoE every 30 seconds. If only it was cold damage.
Cull the Weak : Self-explanatory, must have.
Archery : Every build should have Archery, except for gimmick builds not using a bow of some sort; end of story.
--- The last slot is open for interpretation. ---
Steady Aim is situational, but great if you are good at keeping the distance, the problem is if even one enemy sneaks up on you, you lose the bonus. I really hate that. Especially for fast moving mobs that go all over the place like ghosts, burrowers, imps, and plaguewings.
Perfectionist is a great defense first option. It also helps with your discipline management.
Nightstalker/Vengeance are both good resource generators if you are lacking there.
I guess Grenadier is an option if you really want that extra 2 hatred per using Grenades, but it seems like a wasted passive to me. The last two bonuses on it need serious reworking.
All in all this is a very open build with different options depending on gear and play style.
Bought a Windforce and have been trying it out. Frost Arrow doesn't proc the knockback often at all. I have one with 46.6% and it feels like 5%. I switched to Entangling Shot with Justice is Served and that plus adding Preparation over Vault has made resource management a lot better.
edit:sorry typed this up from my smartphone at work. workin hard!
thanks for the input! all great theorycrafting I am really enjoying the responses. In all honesty tho the way I play this build it is centered around the 3 damage dealing passives including steady aim. My play style has changed dramatically to accommodate this. I am always aware of any nearby enemies and if anything ever gets close I kill them immediately or caltrops and move. My crits hit so hard with steady aim active that I find it almost necessary.
I have fallen in love with EF. It definitely takes getting use to but you eventually learn to position yourself correctly and avoid any over expenditures. It makes for a great "oh sheet" button and acts like a mini vault, leaving room open for more defensive skills, all while generating 4 hatred per shot. I have found that prep is pretty much a necessity if your not using night stalker, which I dont.
If you want to proc WF use shock collar, your hatred regen will be slower but it procs WF like crazy
Edited by Moosentist#1655 on 6/10/2013 3:47 PM PDT
I was playing with your build yesterday. I have a plus 12% DML + 10% SOJ and a 6% frostburn gloves. I was only hitting about 400k critical at about 190k dps. I was using cull the weak and steady aim plus nightstalker for critical. What did i miss out? Does archery make such a big difference?
I also find it very fast to burn my hatred with this build even though i have a bat. I am killing the white mob and elite slower than with bola/spike/ RF build.
First question is are the frostburns 30%? That's probably not the problem but I had to ask. I think you need to grab an EA skull grasp and run archery to land more crits with your calamity. I crit whites at 600k right now and I feel like I have plenty of room to grow. I would also grab prep.
In terms of hatred regen, you can run Entangling shot/justice is served rune to generate as much hatred as possible. Remember with this build your putting all of your damage into EA with the +%EA and +cold skills. Every time you fire a generator you are losing EDPS, so you should try to fire FA as much as humanly possible.
If you're hitting hard enough and kiting effectively your hatred will regen *almost* on its own as the kiting should give you some downtime between shots. Sprinkle in generators as necessary
Edited by Moosentist#1655 on 6/10/2013 9:02 PM PDT
Yes are you are missing the fact that you haven't optimized your gear for the maximum benefit of Elemental Arrow. No offense but 22% to Elemental arrow out of a possible 56% is very low. I was at 47% but my Mara's Kaleidoscope was only 10% EA and had weak stats so I switched it out for a crafted amulet. That still gives me another 15% over your 22%. Also are the Frostburns 6%/30%, because you can get find the 6%/30% ones on the AH for peanuts.
Archery is a significant DPS upgrade. Are you at 190k eDPS before all the passive buffs or after?
I optimized my gear a bit more yesterday and I am at 125k eDPS before buffs and approaching 200k eDPS with Anatomy (Scoundrel) Bait the Trap (Caltrops), Steady Aim, and Cull the Weak. I am seeing consistent 350k - 400k crits on regular mobs and upwards of 620k on elites, fully self-buffed.
If you are at 190k DPS before buffs you should be doing WAY more damage than I am and according to what you posted I am doing more or similar most of the time. So you must either be 190k buffed (similar to me) or simply not maximizing +EA and +cold skill effectively.
Unfortunately this takes a very specific set of gear that relies on the rolls of a stat that can be rolled with 58 other stats and has a roll range of 6% - 14%. So finding the optimal gear can be a chore, but in order for this to be a competitive build you need to maximize EA and boost your eDPS simultaneously. That means getting a high end rolled Skull Grasp and Mara's Kaleidoscope that has high +EA damage, at least 12%, which to say the least will require extreme luck or extreme amounts of gold. Which most of us have neither.
My goal is to attain 200k eDPS unbuffed and 50% to EA which is a 14% DML, 12% SoJ, 12% Skull Grasp, and 12% Mara. All of those with optimal DPS stats and a high +EA roll would make this very achievable.
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