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4000 extra armor is nothing compare to double LS
my mit goes from 88.9% to 93.3% with horrify on give or take 35-40% ehp increase. and I take 4k less dmg give or take. If I increase my armor by another 500 the ehp increase would be 40-45% more EHP.
You also need to realize that COB does 2-4x the dmg a barb does while being much more AOE and can hit more targets =2-4x the LS back
so not so much LS is not needed when hitting targets with COB.
Thus, when not fighting RD packs and hitting targets, 3% LS from WD equivalates to 2-4x the LS of barbs. We actually are the best LS tanks if we are hitting targets with this sort of dps output and not stopped.
Why heal 25k when 12.5k is enough to survive? All that extra healed life is going to oh yeah, no where.
All im saying is that horrify-FA makes up for alot of the sins of the 3% ls limit of 1h which is reflect mainly while offering additional mitigation and getting you out of binds that when SW is on CD. Its a great skill, you might want to drop mass confuse or BBV for it in a skorn build and truly be a super tank but then whats the point when 5.2ls already gives you great tankability vs reflect...
Maximizing dps while being able to survive is the best way to play in my book. Over EHPing at the cost of DPS is not my cup of tea. I personally enjoy playing alittle tactically with horrify/SW and killing faster than my skorn while not dieing.
can u guys even do belial?
lol... I though we are back to 1.0.3. with with post... you're tough guy. Only you can do Belial, of course ))
Aimless aiming to 1 mil EHP.. Why do you need 1 mil EHP? To play with one hand and hold a burger in another? Playing safe spec on softcore? Take pets - you won't die. Take a barb with you and carry him around if you need careless gameplay. Anyway want to hit 1m EHP, take a mojo with vit or whatever - it will be not much more expensive than hitting 1m with skorn
If you like skorn play with skorn, it's a nice thing to do, but if you have no clue how to handle 1h setup don't say skorn is better, cause you can't keep mana up or die all the time with 1h. Thinking that you can't kill something like belial with 1h is strange.
Also wanted to note that Frightening Aspect is kinda bad skill for party play, I would be hesistant to use it with a group.
I'm curious about how much buffed dps you guys have with skorn? You're loosing a bit of crit chance and intelligence, does it affect buffed dps a lot? Just write some numbers please
Edited by KyKaH#2425 on 6/12/2013 12:30 AM PDT
First of all, thanks for coming out in the open, appreciate that.
Your 2 friends, all I can say about their profiles if they actually use that build in-game is, not enough mitigation, and one of them will even get 1-shot by savage beasts charging. I maintain my stand that they're noobs. Anyone can get to P100 doing rounds of MP0, their gear set up also looks like they reached P100 long ago and just parked their characters until Patch 1.08 buffed the Bat family.
Now for your video clip, appreciate that as well. Only thing is I quoted you for saying that you can spam bears indefinitely. That sentence had a broad impact, and I did not want any reader to get the impression that bears can be so easily cast indefinitely. Your Bat-channel in town was totally off-topic, although it is nice to see fast APS holding up the channel for at least 10 secs, should be able to down many types of elite packs at your DPS. During your tremor battle (purple unique, not the elite pack), your mana depleted really fast when you cast Bears. That's what I was talking about in my reply. Bears is for burst damage with high APS, definitely cannot be cast "indefinitely".
My unbuffed DPS is around 208-210k, buffed DPS is probably around 370k only. If I add in BBV maybe x1.4~1.5 due to APS + DPS buff. I'm the balanced build, slow and steady type. I'll be trying another 1-2 pieces of IAS gear, since I can still put in SW:Honored Guest to replace Jaunt. Overall, my observation for Skorn players is they prefer to have sustained DPS instead of high burst damage that may go OOM if the mobs are not killed within that burst time frame. In theory, that could be a breakpoint, but in game play, there are too many variables and affix combinations to rely on burst damage for kills.
4000 extra armor is nothing compare to double LS
You're missing the point of frightening aspect. Yes, an additional 4k armor won't take much damage off a 100k hit from a charge. But neither will an extra 3% life steal. Ehp is the only factor in taking a charge. Adding 4k armor does add 50% to ehp all through damage mitigation. This drastically improves the effectiveness of life steal, making 3% more than sufficient to tank anything. I have spent my whole time as a bears user with a 2.3% life steal spear and didn't have problems. Since I moved to 3% I feel invincible in combat. The issue with my character is I have low ehp. So if I ever get in a situation where I'm not actually dealing damage and I don't have SW or horrify, I die rather fast. Skorn doesn't help me in these situations.
Life steal is only useful if you are doing damage. At your dps, 3% life steal will allow tanking in any situation with horrify up. For every other situation (like the ones Eugenius outlined) life steal doesn't do anything...it's all about ehp or SW.
As for DPS, we have the same paper DPS and you are using a 1-h/mojo setup.
I simply showed, according to the numbers, my skorn has higher damage ranges then his axe.
Even has a higher damage range than your spear. Two-handers in general have higher damage ranges. Please stop stating that skorns have lower damage. That's completely false.
Attacks per Second 1.5
Critical Hit Chance 51%
Critical Hit Damage 404%
MH Weapon Damage 169,259.84
Attacks per Second 1.09
Critical Hit Chance 45.5%
Critical Hit Damage 467%
MH Weapon Damage 209,424.89
I never said that spears have higher damage ranges than Skorns. I said spear+mojo does more damage than a Skorn. Attack speed is a factor in damage. Skorns may hit harder (ie. for more damage), but they do it slower. The net effect is that they do less damage overall. But they also get an extra 3% life steal...surely that's an even trade? I don't understand why you are stuck on this point.
Skorns do less damage than a 1h+mojo combo
anyone who has been a semi regular on wiz forums already knows, aimless goes for more ehp than necessary because ehp is what he practices and preaches.
I used skorn for a while and when I switched to 1h I expected to be noticeably weaker. The only times I notice a difference are facing RD (I can survive RD with 1h setup but if I don't notice the affix / am just spacing out I can kill myself pretty easily), and mana regen.
skorn + high ehp gear is always going to out-tank 1h setup due to the double LS, but 1h setup I've found is just as capable in most situations. Skorn is probably my second least favorite weapon in the game (next to EF *shudder*) so my dislike for skorn has led me to go the more expensive / gear-dependent route so I can use 1h.
Call me an epeen 1h user, claim you can tank better than me - you're probably right on both accounts, At the end of the day its a matter of playstyle and preference really.
The perception that WD's who use 1-handers are epeeners chaps my !@#. I look at some of the skorn posters claming to tank on here and their mitigation/life/ehp is laughable.....
Call me epeen - my stats are:
All this talk about skorn vs 1h/mojo
I'm going to throw a 3rd option out there:
I've been doing more testing the last few days...I have my shield build in my profile. I was testing last night in act 3/4 mp10 with plague bats and was kicking some serious butt. I've never felt tankier. I then sleepwalked through my routes in act 1 and 2 mp10 with CoB
The only downside to a shield is a loss in dps. In my case, 62k dps lost with a shield,
The upside is I felt like a barb
True a skorn may hit harder but it hits
less per sec. cob isn't a burst damage
like bears it's constant a 1h set up will
hit more per sec so in the end with any
of the bats builds it's all about damge
per sec. and also I'm tired of people
telling me to get a skorn and try it I was
using a skorn back in 1.05 with bears
I've tried it with bats I was doing testing
with it yesterday so I'm well aware of what
a skorn can do in my case with my stats
I can survive just as well with my 1h setup
and kill faster if I couldn't you can bet I'd
have my skorn back on.
I understand tref. Thank you.
Do you have to combat the mana usage on your 1h/mojo with mana skills?
I find that sort of funny since he says he wants a challenge since stacking EHP sort of seems like the opposite of a challenge.
@Joeycrack yes I have to have mana regen
on my mojo for the 1h set up but I can matain
with out using mana passives the reason why
I use them sometimes is because I don't use
pestilence to round up packs Im always going
forward so im always breaking the channeling
and have the startup cost it's just the way I play
I have to do the same thing with my skorn as
a matter of fact I actualy have more mana
issues with my skorn because I don't have the
extra 14 regen to help fill up between casts.
As a proud user of a Skorn, I'll throw my support in the Skorn party.
I don't have to run out of any ground effects or arcane beams or what not. With spirit vessel and jaunt life is good and I rarely die. Soloing blazing guardians can be annoying for sure but hey!
A skorn let's me go more DPS on other items as well. I'm at 306k DPS with my skorn. I'd need quite the 1H weapon and mojo to beat that. And if I did go that route, I'd probably need more mitigation and sacrifice DPS on other items.
While I'm here, everyone should try adding zombie dogs life link and sacrifice provoke pack to their COB builds. The DPS is insane. I get 937k DPS with BBV. Bam! (Courtesy to Tref for the idea.)
Edited by James1v12#1875 on 6/12/2013 9:36 AM PDT
Similar loss in DPS, similar gains towards the feeling of invincibility.
Can't tank Belial's meteors, but pretty much everything else.
CoB loves dodge too.
I understand tref. Thank you.
I don't, but that's because I do enough damage that GI/GF provides all the mana I need. In situations where I am facing a lot of elites (and may get knockback/nightmare/etc) I usually wear a soj and ToTD. This gives me a large enough mana pool that I don't need to use BR/SA/VQ. Tbh I think using mana passives when well geared is a bit of a waste - there are too many good offensive passives to use. I would prefer to sacrifice dps on items to get mana than use passives.
My personal preference is a 1h mojo because it allows for more dps. But I have always said I think Skorn is the best weapon for bats for the vast majority of wds. Bats requires tanking, and Skorn is generally best for that. The 1h route only becomes better when you do enough dps that 3% life steal allows tanking through all situations that a Skorn would. At 300k dps, the extra 3% life steal can only be noticed on reflect packs.
Also, to be clear, I do not think there is a major difference between a godly 1h user and a godly Skorn user. It's purely a preference thing. On solo play the 1h user has a clear advantage (due to dps). But in group play, where incoming damage is more difficult to control, Skorn and 1h can be equally as powerful. And this game is all about multiplayer anyway, so that's really what's important.
All this talk about skorn vs 1h/mojo
been trying a shield as well. i just want to rack up to 200k since with a shield im only 195k. but i feel very witch doctor-ish with the set up with spear. add up the tankiness of build and it's also fun to use.
1h+oh can be a minor dps increase (usually about 3-7% more), honestly only for those who want to min/max on paper dps. Skorn has double the lifesteal and is more mana efficient.
if you weigh those together, its pretty easy to see skorn comes out on top. I figured all of this out a day after patch 4.0 came out, glad to see others have finally caught on.
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