Diablo® III

Inna belt, holy dmg added dps to manticore?

To test this, I bought one inna belt with 7% holy dmg & another one with 8% holy dmg. Both belts has same dex; however they added different dps on my board, 8% one added more dps than the 7% one. I am using manticore----->poison dmg based. How could this work ?
Edited by Cold#3573 on 6/13/2013 5:50 PM PDT
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but 8% gives more dps because 8% is > than 7%.

Regardless, the +elemental damage affixes found on things like inna's belt and stone of jordan take your WEAPON'S black damage amount (all weapons have a base black damage component, some weapons like Calamity have all black damage) and add x% to it. In the case of your manticore, the 7% or 8% completely ignores the poison damage portion of your manticore and takes the remaining black damage of the manticore and adds to that, as holy damage.

Edit:
Wait, maybe you're thinking the holy damage will only affect weapons (or abilities) that already have a holy damage component? For which I say, read what I wrote ^
Edited by Trivan#1271 on 6/13/2013 6:05 PM PDT
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Not sure if serious. You're asking how 8% extra damage could give you more damage than 7%??

8 > 7
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I guess i understand his question.
Not 100% of manticore dmg is poisonous.
The non-poison part of thedmg from ur manticore will still get benefit from the environmental dmg.
So that's why u see an increase by changing 7% to 8% belt
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I thought holy dmg & poison dmg clashes.
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but 8% gives more dps because 8% is > than 7%.

Regardless, the +elemental damage affixes found on things like inna's belt and stone of jordan take your WEAPON'S black damage amount (all weapons have a base black damage component, some weapons like Calamity have all black damage) and add x% to it. In the case of your manticore, the 7% or 8% completely ignores the poison damage portion of your manticore and takes the remaining black damage of the manticore and adds to that, as holy damage.

Edit:
Wait, maybe you're thinking the holy damage will only affect weapons (or abilities) that already have a holy damage component? For which I say, read what I wrote ^


Thx, this helps. :)
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%ele will only add damage to the +poison damage stat on the Manticore. When the weapon is purely physical such as Windforce and Calamity it adds %ele to the +min/+max stat, PLUS the %weapon stat, any ruby in a socket, AND the base weapon damage.

Edit: so to semi answer the question, Inna's belt benefits elemental weapons, just not as well as purely physical ones.
Edited by Rav1n#1381 on 6/13/2013 6:22 PM PDT
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06/13/2013 06:20 PMPosted by Rav1n
%ele will only add damage to the +poison damage stat on the Manticore. When the weapon is purely physical such as Windforce and Calamity it adds %ele to the +min/+max stat, PLUS the %weapon stat, any ruby in a socket, AND the base weapon damage.


Not so, at least the first part. It ignores the + poison damage stat on the manticore and only affects its black base, and I suppose any rubies that may be there.
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06/13/2013 06:22 PMPosted by Trivan
%ele will only add damage to the +poison damage stat on the Manticore. When the weapon is purely physical such as Windforce and Calamity it adds %ele to the +min/+max stat, PLUS the %weapon stat, any ruby in a socket, AND the base weapon damage.


Not so, at least the first part. It ignores the + poison damage stat on the manticore and only affects its black base, and I suppose any rubies that may be there.
I'm fairly certain that it grabs the first elemental stack from the weapon to calculate the % damage to add. In the case of Manticore, that's the poison damage. The reason all that other stuff gets tacked in there on "Black weapons" is because having no other element but physical forces it to use just that one and it can not differentiate from the stat-based damage modifier and the weapon's base damage which is also physical.
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06/13/2013 06:26 PMPosted by Rav1n


Not so, at least the first part. It ignores the + poison damage stat on the manticore and only affects its black base, and I suppose any rubies that may be there.
I'm fairly certain that it grabs the first elemental stack from the weapon to calculate the % damage to add. In the case of Manticore, that's the poison damage. The reason all that other stuff gets tacked in there on "Black weapons" is because having no other element but physical forces it to use just that one and it can not differentiate from the stat-based damage modifier and the weapon's base damage which is also physical.


Stop misleading people on things that you are not sure.
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Not so, at least the first part. It ignores the + poison damage stat on the manticore and only affects its black base, and I suppose any rubies that may be there.
I'm fairly certain that it grabs the first elemental stack from the weapon to calculate the % damage to add. In the case of Manticore, that's the poison damage. The reason all that other stuff gets tacked in there on "Black weapons" is because having no other element but physical forces it to use just that one and it can not differentiate from the stat-based damage modifier and the weapon's base damage which is also physical.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6413025317#13

It doesn't just grab the first elemental stack from the weapon.
Edited by Trivan#1271 on 6/13/2013 6:37 PM PDT
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I'm fairly certain that it grabs the first elemental stack from the weapon to calculate the % damage to add. In the case of Manticore, that's the poison damage. The reason all that other stuff gets tacked in there on "Black weapons" is because having no other element but physical forces it to use just that one and it can not differentiate from the stat-based damage modifier and the weapon's base damage which is also physical.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6413025317#13

It doesn't just grab the first elemental stack from the weapon.
Thank you for clarifying Trivian, I indeed had it backwards and stand corrected. The premise that physical only weapons gain a much larger benefit still stands though.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6413025317#13

It doesn't just grab the first elemental stack from the weapon.
Thank you for clarifying Trivian, I indeed had it backwards and stand corrected. The premise that physical only weapons gain a much larger benefit still stands though.


Yep, absolutely, which really is a shame as, aside from cold damage, elemental damage really doesn't play much of a role.
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8 Pct poison on my zuni boots beats the crap out of my nat's boots by like 12k even at 160 or so dex difference from losing set bonus but 8 pct holy on my inna's loses to my WH by ..5k or so if I remember right. I use manticore. Gear's in profile.
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Thank you for clarifying Trivian, I indeed had it backwards and stand corrected. The premise that physical only weapons gain a much larger benefit still stands though.


Yep, absolutely, which really is a shame as, aside from cold damage, elemental damage really doesn't play much of a role.
Well now hold on there a second. I have quite a few no-CC builds lined out, where by most of the skills never crit. In these cases Inna's %holy>>>>>Witching Hour CD, even if the game calculator gives a higher sheet DPS.
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https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569308133#3

Q. Issue: Damage disproportion between physical and elemental type weapons.

Question: Why did you design physical (black) damage weapons to be superior damage-wise to elemental damage weapons?

Reasoning:
I´m asking about your thought process behind the fact that black damage on weapons:
1. gets the bonus from the "+x% damage" affix and elemental damage does not;
2. is used to calculate the "adds x% to elemental damage" affix while elemental damage on the weapon is not taken into account;
3. is bugged - the MinMaxDamage affix adds min damage first and then checks if the new minimum weapon damage is higher than base maximum damage; if it is higher, the game uses the new minimum +1 as the new base maximum and adds max damage to this value, resulting in higher overall black weapon damage compared to elemental weapons.

It makes no sense that there´s damage differences when there´s no additional elemental damage effects (beside cold snare) in the game and monsters have no resists. This damage difference limits our gearing options as comparably rolled physical weapons will always outperform elemental ones.

Here's two suggestions on how to fix this issue http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7810050948?page=11#201

- Nubtro#2147 (Americas [English])

Wyatt: We did not intentionally design physical (black) damage weapons to be superior (damage-wise) to elemental damage weapons. The reason that they are superior is actually due to two bugs.

The first bug is that "+x% damage" was supposed to work for elemental damage only. So, for example, "+5% Fire damage" was supposed to take any fire damage that you did and add 5% more. If you dealt 100 Fire damage, you would get 5% more Fire damage and deal 105 Fire damage in total.

However (and this is where the bug comes in), instead of looking at your elemental damage, the game would always look at your physical damage, and add a percentage of that as elemental damage. So, to continue with my example, "+5% Fire damage" would take 100 physical damage and then produce 100 physical damage, plus 5 fire damage on top of that. As a result, rather than making you want items that matched the elemental damage types you had bonuses for, the bug simply made black weapons the best.

The other bug is the way the MinMaxDamage affix works. As you mention, minimum damage is applied first and increases the maximum damage to be 1 more than the minimum value. This is correct behavior, since we don't want maximums that are less than the minimum. The bug here is that the game always attempts to ensure that the maximum damage on a weapon is higher before maximum damage values are even applied, which results in inflated damage amounts. (We actually fixed this bug in the new version of the Ruby in 1.0.7.)

So, hopefully it's clear that the current situation was not the intended one—it's the result of two bugs that had some very radical and significant effects.

Now, this obviously raises the question, if this situation is due to two bugs, why weren't the bugs found before release and now that they're found, why don't we just fix them?

One of the realities of developing software is that a) you’re not going to find every bug before you ship a product and b) when you do find a bug, there are multiple approaches to addressing it. Some bugs are very difficult to resolve, both in terms of time and resources as well as complexity.

In this specific case, we don’t want to change how existing items work, and fixing these bugs would absolutely do that. We know that acquiring and valuing items is an important part of the Diablo experience and do not want to change the mechanics of how an item property works when people have already invested in it.

We're also looking to revamp itemization, and part of the revamp will include moving to fixed versions of the elemental damage increasing attribute, as well as the MinMaxDamage affix—put simply, we'd fix the bugs for new items. "Legacy" items will continue to use the current (bugged) version. The new versions will likely bear different language such as "Fire damage you deal is increased by 5%" to differentiate from the old mechanics. (That wording isn't final, it’s just an example.)


Long story short, the affix doesn´t work as intended as it only considers black damage for calculation when it should´ve increased the corresponding elemental damage on the weapon. Hopefully they´ll fix it in the new patch, as it confuses a lot of people, not to mention further discriminates elemental weapons.

EDIT: The answer to your main question is it adds the elemental damage based on the black damage part of your manticore (simply substract the poison damage from weapon damage). Also, all elemental sources are applied, even different source. So if you have a inna´s belt (holy) zuni boots (poison) and a cold SoJ, all of them will grant you a bonus (also you´ll get the snare from cold in case you use a non-elemental skill).
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 6/14/2013 6:21 AM PDT
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Yep, absolutely, which really is a shame as, aside from cold damage, elemental damage really doesn't play much of a role.
Well now hold on there a second. I have quite a few no-CC builds lined out, where by most of the skills never crit. In these cases Inna's %holy>>>>>Witching Hour CD, even if the game calculator gives a higher sheet DPS.


Sorry, should've been more specific. Types of elemental damage, both when compared to other types of elemental damage and non-elemental damage, don't play much of a role. Not the damage part, but the element part. Thus, its a shame that the + elemental damage % affix only takes into account the black damage portion of the weapon, instead of all damage on the weapon. i.e. pure black damage weapons benefit more from elemental damage, this is the shame.
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Could someone explain me the following thing.
If i have a manticore and SoJ with bonus to fire dmg, when i use skill Rapid FIre that does fire dmg, will the 6% bonus fire dmg from the SoJ apply to my whole dmg that i make with this skill (because skill does fire dmg) or will it still apply only to the black dmg from manti? In other words when buying SoJ should i care if its fire dmg or poison or whatever for my manticore? thanks
Edited by kiko148#2526 on 12/30/2013 5:13 PM PST
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Heya kiko,

It will not increase the damage of Rapid Fire just because it says 'Adds 6% to Fire Damage'.

The 'Adds 6% to Fire Damage' from the SoJ will be applied to the black damage of your weapon (as all elements do in Diablo 3 Vanilla).

12/30/2013 05:12 PMPosted by kiko148
Could someone explain me the following thing.
If i have a manticore and SoJ with bonus to fire dmg, when i use skill Rapid FIre that does fire dmg, will the 6% bonus fire dmg from the SoJ apply to my whole dmg that i make with this skill (because skill does fire dmg) or will it still apply only to the black dmg from manti? In other words when buying SoJ should i care if its fire dmg or poison or whatever for my manticore? thanks


This is pretty much covered by what Nubtro added here (at the end):

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9281618861#16

Also very well covered by TastySoup here (see below link). I don't want to copy/paste what was written there as it is good reading (you should check it out), for specifics read from here:

08. What's Black Damage and how is it affected by the +X% Cold Damage?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9308901329

Remember... it can be any element, they all work in the same way (Cold has the added benefit of snare when used with the appropriate skills).

With regards to what you are referring to (adding damage to Rapid Fire), see Magefist:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/magefist

Specifically this particular affix:

Fire skills deal 10–20% more damage. That's what will add to the damage of Rapid Fire when runed with Withering Fire:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/demon-hunter/active/rapid-fire

Withering Fire:
Reduces the initial Hatred cost to 10, and ignites your arrows, causing them to deal Fire damage.

I mention the above as you talked about adding damage to Rapid Fire without mentioning a rune, which would mean the damage would be Physical (refer to the tooltip). SO, I SoJ won't do what you are asking, but a Magefist will!

Hope this helps :-)

Silver

**EDIT** Well... it's still adding damage to Rapid Fire, but only because the SoJ is indirectly adding damage (I mean it is adding damage to any skill you are using via adding to your black weapons damage instead of directly adding to the damage % of Withering Fire).
Edited by Silver#6986 on 12/30/2013 8:02 PM PST
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