Diablo® III

WKL vs Rare weapon

I know this gets asked way to often

I just put on a WKL w/ 5%/25%/os and around 930 dps to test it out against my are axe. It only improved my Ghom kill speed by about 2 seconds total, I was expecting a lot more. I'm not so sure I want to purchase one w/ LS now because I sure didn't notice much benefit. Do I need to use a diff build to gain more benefit from the SW tornados?
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sounds like you prioritized wdps over cd which is the main reason

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569327625#17

you're also using bells, wkl with bells is a big no-no
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sounds like you prioritized wdps over cd which is the main reason

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569327625#17

you're also using bells, wkl with bells is a big no-no


I was looking at one with 2.7% lifesteal so I could replace my current 2.3% lifesteal weapon. With open socket and both 100% chd gems the wkl didn't improve much. I could switch out bells to hundred fists blazing fist to get that 15% ias which would in turn spit out more tornados and see how it affects my kill speed, when the servers come back online that is.

Also if you read the first post I have a 25% wkl, so that is not the issue. I've prioritized the stats correctly just not seeing the benefit.
Edited by Dro#1318 on 6/18/2013 2:02 PM PDT
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Quickening Bells build is best build currently for DWers versus bosses.

You will have a hard time beating it with a cookie spec.
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the extra crit on your 2.3% LS wep does make a difference. depending on what MP you were testing, don't expect huge differences even with the +25%

on a side note, i'd drop sixth sense and run combo strike, i typically don't use that passive unless i'm running a high dodge% backlash build.

and for speed kill testing, i don't notice a HUGE difference with my WKL over another rare, but where it really seems to shine is in the big mobs. in the end, it's all about personal preference.

Good Luck!
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Your skill build isn't good for WKL.

Try the tri gen with blinding.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUYSbk!VgX!aZccca

Use this for your 2 axes set up and axe + wkl set up.

Then, report back.
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the extra crit on your 2.3% LS wep does make a difference. depending on what MP you were testing, don't expect huge differences even with the +25%

on a side note, i'd drop sixth sense and run combo strike, i typically don't use that passive unless i'm running a high dodge% backlash build.

and for speed kill testing, i don't notice a HUGE difference with my WKL over another rare, but where it really seems to shine is in the big mobs. in the end, it's all about personal preference.

Good Luck!


When you say big mobs, you mean such as a large group instead of just a few?

With a WKL none of the suggested builds really improved kill speed on single target dps (although they did help improve my overall kill speed).
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Try the build that's on my monk it
works well with a wkl also are you
aware that a few seconds faster kill
time on ghom in mp10 is about 100k
more sustained damage per sec.
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Also if you read the first post I have a 25% wkl, so that is not the issue. I've prioritized the stats correctly just not seeing the benefit.

Considering you haven't even shown us the complete stats for your wkl, it's impossible to say whether you did or did not. It sounds like you got one with LS though, and that's probably the problem.

Generally when dual wielding, to maximize dps you want one weapon with 3LS so the other can have CD+OS. It looks like you chose to go the 2LS weapons route, which is less ideal.

06/19/2013 09:28 AMPosted by Dro
With a WKL none of the suggested builds really improved kill speed on single target dps (although they did help improve my overall kill speed).

then it sounds like it's a playstyle problem or lack of skill/familiarity with the build, with old reliable builds you should be seeing at least a 10:1 ratio of edps:pdps, which is more than anything other than nirvana (wol variants included) in terms of ST edps
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I just logged with the WKL I'm testing w/ for all to see. I haven't chosen CHD or LS for the attribute just yet, I wanted to see if kill speed increased with a decent WKL. Before spending a lot I figured I'd spend 10-20 mil on a decent WKL to test. Plus I needed to see how viable 2.7% lifesteal was if I was going the crit route. I'm still not sure it is viable with my current AR and DPS, especially if I ran into reflect mobs.

I should rephrase the kill* speed statement though. WKL does improve kill speed, just ever so slightly. MP10 Ghom w/ the trigen build I went from 1:28 using 2x Rare to 1:25 using a WKL. Reading around the web it seemed like WKL significantly improved dps and I was expecting a lot more.

*edit*

also are you aware that a few seconds faster kill time on ghom in mp10 is about 100k more sustained damage per sec.

I didn't do the actual math...like I mentioned above I was just expecting more based on all that I've read/heard about WKL. 100k sustained dps is a decent chunk.
Edited by Dro#1318 on 6/19/2013 2:16 PM PDT
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06/19/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Dro
Reading around the web it seemed like WKL significantly improved dps and I was expecting a lot more.

that's because you have a pretty bad wkl...

as an example, my wkl gives me 13.1k more pdps than yours, which translates to about a 15.9k mdps difference
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Reading around the web it seemed like WKL significantly improved dps and I was expecting a lot more.

that's because you have a pretty bad wkl...

as an example, my wkl gives me 13.1k more pdps than yours, which translates to about a 15.9k mdps difference


The WKL I am using IS FOR TEST PURPOSES ONLY!!!!! If WKL turns out to be worth it I would spring for one w/ CHD/OS or LS/OS (based on if I need the LS).

As of now with my current AR and LS I die occasionally in MP10 (which I'd like to never die but the occasional death still happens w/ 5%+ LS). With my test WKL and around 2.7% LS I died more often to the point I felt it was unacceptable.. To be worthwhile that means WKL needs to effectively add enough DPS to sustain w/ only 3% lifesteal, something I don't think my gear/dps will allow.

In d3up your WKL adds 8k dps for myself over my WKL, at the end of the day from what I've seen so far w/ WKL the added dps will not translate into the loss of 2.3% LS. The time spent kiting/dying w/ less lifesteal will in turn lead to slower kills.
Edited by Dro#1318 on 6/19/2013 2:45 PM PDT
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06/19/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Dro
The WKL I am using IS FOR TEST PURPOSES ONLY!!!!!

except that you're comparing a bad wkl to a good rare, of course the results won't be favorable for the former XD

06/19/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Dro
To be worthwhile that means WKL needs to effectively add enough DPS to sustain w/ only 3% lifesteal, something I don't think my gear/dps will allow.

again this goes back to playstyle, build, and skill (or lackthereof) with less pdps/mpdps and 3% LS somehow I managed to find a way to survive almost everything I did in mp10 quite easily

06/19/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Dro
In d3up your WKL adds 8k dps for myself over my WKL

it actually adds 10.2k dps, not 8k

from what you've said, there's only a couple conclusions to draw:

1. you aren't familiar enough with the class, playstyle or skill wise
2. your playstyle doesn't suit the build that WKL requires

maybe give bells another try? that's what you were using before you tried the wkl right?
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 6/19/2013 3:06 PM PDT
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it actually adds 10.2k dps, not 8k


Forgot to add the 11 dex. 10k over my WKL is correct, my mistake. AT the end of the day that 10k dps (which is still 3k less pdps than my rare) might not make up for the loss of 2.3% life steal, leaving me with more deaths. Its not a bad WKL, it just isn't quite up to par...my point being I thought even a mediocre WKL would significantly out DPS my Rare Axe and that is just not the case. Add into that I lose a very crucial stat and at this point regardless if I go bells or SW or trigen, a high dps rare axe seems to be a much better option giving me a more well rounded build.

again this goes back to playstyle, build, and skill (or lackthereof) with less pdps/mpdps and 3% LS somehow I managed to find a way to survive almost everything I did in mp10 quite easily


I like to facetank, I do it on my barb and want to be able to do it on my monk. My AR and LS should allow me to stand in the path of an arcane beam without kiting. DPS is all about being able to sustain attacks on your target, kiting does not allow that type of play. This is especially true for us SW monks whose dps comes from spawning more tornados, which come from scoring critical hits, which requires you to stand and attack.

Also, it would do wonders for helping people if you didn't reply in such a condescending tone, it makes you look like an @$$. You obviously have some knowledge on the subject but I can barely tolerate reading your posts.
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If you like facetanking stuff, go with LS WKL. Check out my female monk. It facetanks pretty much everything.

I can take out about +15k more dps easy by swapping out my litany ring, but it takes out massive amount of tankiness against elites. With the current stats of my female monk, I pretty much facetank everything. My usual skill spec gets me to around 380k-420k permanent buffed dps with WKL, so it's pretty much facerolling things.

And the beauty of WKL lighitng bonus is that it scales with your buffed dmg. Because monks have so many ways to self buff (assuming you are tanky enough to not use any defensive skills and OWE-free for 3rd passive slot), we can buff our dmg by a lot.

So, every bit of buffed dmg will be "buffed" again by the WKL lighting bonus.

It's definitely the best in slot offhand for monks that use FoT Tclap / SW Cyclone.

If you are into bell builds, it's a bad offhand though.

Cheers.
Edited by KimSulki84#1308 on 6/19/2013 3:39 PM PDT
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06/19/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Dro
Its not a bad WKL, it just isn't quite up to par...my point being I thought even a mediocre WKL would significantly out DPS my Rare Axe and that is just not the case.

yeah, sure... that's like testing a 1.1k int skorn against a 1.4k ls one... but w/e

DPS is all about being able to sustain attacks on your target, kiting does not allow that type of play. This is especially true for us SW monks whose dps comes from spawning more tornados, which come from scoring critical hits, which requires you to stand and attack.

so.... you're lecturing me on the only build I've ever really used? gotcha

teach me more oh wise one
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06/19/2013 03:50 PMPosted by gotaplanstan
Its not a bad WKL, it just isn't quite up to par...my point being I thought even a mediocre WKL would significantly out DPS my Rare Axe and that is just not the case.

yeah, sure... that's like testing a 1.1k int skorn against a 1.4k ls one... but w/e


These are two separate things. If you wanted to compare the weapon I'm using to yours via a skorn comparison it would be the following:

Your Skorn: 1250 dps 190 chd 400dex
My Skorn: 1400 dps 130chd 300dex

Fact of the matter is I could get a 940 dps wkl w/ 50chd that does more dps than your WKL and it would match my paper dps, but I'd lose the Lifesteal. I'm almost wondering if a 1300dps chd ls os rare would be a much better option seeing as how LS WKL w/ higher lightning dmg are insanely expensive.

DPS is all about being able to sustain attacks on your target, kiting does not allow that type of play. This is especially true for us SW monks whose dps comes from spawning more tornados, which come from scoring critical hits, which requires you to stand and attack.

so.... you're lecturing me on the only build I've ever really used? gotcha

teach me more oh wise one


Nice sarcasm...it really furthers this conversation to a place where I can understand your viewpoint about why WKL is a better option.
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You came here asking questions, when I tried to help, you argued. Not much else to say.

You have poor results because your testing methods are poor, simple fact.

06/19/2013 04:06 PMPosted by Dro
Fact of the matter is I could get a 940 dps wkl w/ 50chd that does more dps than your WKL and it would match my paper dps, but I'd lose the Lifesteal.

more proof of your lack of mechanics understanding, these hypothetical stats you mention would actually be less than a 2k dps increase for either of our characters, over my wkl
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 6/19/2013 4:16 PM PDT
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If you like facetanking stuff, go with LS WKL. Check out my female monk. It facetanks pretty much everything.

I can take out about +15k more dps easy by swapping out my litany ring, but it takes out massive amount of tankiness against elites. With the current stats of my female monk, I pretty much facetank everything. My usual skill spec gets me to around 380k-420k permanent buffed dps with WKL, so it's pretty much facerolling things.

And the beauty of WKL lighitng bonus is that it scales with your buffed dmg. Because monks have so many ways to self buff (assuming you are tanky enough to not use any defensive skills and OWE-free for 3rd passive slot), we can buff our dmg by a lot.

So, every bit of buffed dmg will be "buffed" again by the WKL lighting bonus.

It's definitely the best in slot offhand for monks that use FoT Tclap / SW Cyclone.

If you are into bell builds, it's a bad offhand though.

Cheers.


Thank you for the very informative reply, this is exactly the type of information I've been looking for.

I already ditched OWE. Once I get some bracers like yours I will ditch Time of Need for Overawe. Depending how survivability is at that point I'd look into a litany over my Hellfire. I foresee some possible issues with reflect damage packs.

I switch out cyclone strike to serenity or blinding flash for solo play.

I honestly prefer the SW build over Bells. It looks like maybe I should contemplate a high dps ls one :-\ there goes my billion lol.
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You came here asking questions, when I tried to help, you argued. Not much else to say.

You have poor results because your testing methods are poor, simple fact.

Fact of the matter is I could get a 940 dps wkl w/ 50chd that does more dps than your WKL and it would match my paper dps, but I'd lose the Lifesteal.

more proof of your lack of mechanics understanding, these hypothetical stats you mention would actually be less than a 2k dps increase for either of our characters, over my wkl


http://imgur.com/GBGRksN

http://imgur.com/ylnb21W

I'm testing these on my character, I don't give a !@#$ how it affects your character.

How are my testing methods poor?

*edit*
I bought a WKL with the EXACT stats as one I would buy, the only difference is it doesn't have lifesteal, which would be the stat I'm aiming for. I am not sold on CHD as it severely hurts survivability from the testing I've done and the dps I would gain from CHD MIGHT NOT be enough to offset that loss. I do not want to spend 1b+ to figure out later I can't facetank and in turn slow down my kill speed (even though my edps is higher).

*edit2*

I've added you to my FL Stan I want to see how WKL works w/out LS.
Edited by Dro#1318 on 6/19/2013 4:29 PM PDT
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