Diablo® III

To Inna's or not Inna's?

So I love the idea of frightning aspect.. but i hate the idea of fear with CoB

ive decided to go more armor route and its paying off tremendously!
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FA has its merits but at a certain mitigation level it's not needed. Even for 1h. The only real issue is fast reflect on fast attack elites, then you have to be careful. Mit first then dps would save a lot of wasted gold on borked gearing. As wd, we don't have the best cc breaking skills and we can't compare to barbs wiz and monk in that respect. Yes we have to stand in more dmg than they do for cob. We need higher levels of overall mitigation as a result.
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I see your main was a wiz, probably why you advocate MIT first too :P

I blame Aimless for brainwashing me but the kid has a point. Especially for CoB as breaking the channel is a huge dps loss.
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Haha maybe. But even with freeze you needed good mit for your DS to be effective. And that with mobs immobilized 95 percent of the time. We have no such skills as wd. We truly need to tank so I find it odd that some don't feel mit is important. Breaking channel is one thing but dying is worse!
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i literally have never come across a reflect pack that didn't have enough trash around to counter the reflect dmg since patch came out. FA isn't even needed
Edited by danitefox#1989 on 6/19/2013 9:37 PM PDT
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Haha maybe. But even with freeze you needed good mit for your DS to be effective. And that with mobs immobilized 95 percent of the time. We have no such skills as wd. We truly need to tank so I find it odd that some don't feel mit is important. Breaking channel is one thing but dying is worse!


I think wds have the capability to tank far better than monks, or basically any other class. Spirit Walk is one of the only skills in the game that provides invulnerability with a low cooldown (GI+SV included). Wizard also has this, but they don't do nearly as much damage as bats. Serenity is only useful as a crutch or at extremely high lvl group play (tranquility), and the cooldown is quite painful. A Skorn doctor with 6% life steal and decent dps should have no problem tanking almost any situation. I only have 3% life steal and I can tank arcanes while in poison pools. The

I think ehp is less relevant than dps/life steal in terms of tanking once ~500k ehp and ~200k dps is achieved. "True" tanking requires avoiding knockback/nightmare/etc, which is best done utilizing cc (hex+paranoia) and killing them as fast as possible. The only major weakness with my build is reflect packs, which is why I need FA. No amount of mitigation will protect me from reflect with a 3% weapon.

06/19/2013 09:35 PMPosted by danitefox
i literally have never come across a reflect pack that didn't have enough trash around to counter the reflect dmg since patch came out. FA isn't even needed

I mainly farm VoTA on my wd so there aren't enough packs around. In act 1 I agree - there's always so many monsters around to negate the reflect pack.

FA has its merits but at a certain mitigation level it's not needed. Even for 1h.

It is always needed for reflect packs assuming decent dps. A wd with 250k unbuffed dps, 1200 AR, and 4.5k armor won't be able to tank a reflect mob on mp10. And those stats would be damn hard to achieve. With GI I can keep FA up all the time, so it gives me 3300 armor. That's a lot of slots on my gear which can be freed up for more intel/vit/etc
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@danite
I have, multiple times. Either where there aren't many to begin with, or the trash dies instantly leaving just the elites. I dislike wasting time taking elites to more trash.
Edited by Mitchlol#6174 on 6/19/2013 10:35 PM PDT
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So I love the idea of frightning aspect.. but i hate the idea of fear with CoB

ive decided to go more armor route and its paying off tremendously!


lol wut !!!!!????

you bought that knife????????????????????!!

i cut out my kidneys waiting to pay for it......!!! and you bought it off him !!!???

sigh.... thats the weapon that will set me off to 300k sheet dps.

how do i put back my kidneys.....
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06/19/2013 10:32 PMPosted by Trefnwyd
It is always needed for reflect packs assuming decent dps. A wd with 250k unbuffed dps, 1200 AR, and 4.5k armor won't be able to tank a reflect mob on mp10. And those stats would be damn hard to achieve. With GI I can keep FA up all the time, so it gives me 3300 armor. That's a lot of slots on my gear which can be freed up for more intel/vit/etc


I'm terrible at calculations but this is a very rough overview of LS @ 3% vs elites:

I crit SB for 2 million
SB reflects 200k dmg (@10%)
After total dmg reduction (UNBUFFED TDR @ 90.5%) I take 18.1k dmg

LS: @3% (0.006%) - 2 million crit = 12000 hp healed
Shortfall (dmg taken) = 6100hp

Dmg taken would be less if increased MIT through GF&GI was factored. But to keep it simple, those arent used.

So, at 85k HP it would take me 14 secs to die all other factors remaining the same. SW on 15 sec cooldown for 2 sec activation for partial heal. Also factor in hex and mass confusion.
Then factor in reflect turning on and off.
Then add 2k life per second from BR.
Then add globes with pick up

I know I havent accounted for plague, desecrate and whatever other affixes that may be in effect. But what I'm trying to show is that at a decent level of mitigation you can relax with reflect and not run kite like crazy.

Very rough calculations so dont shoot me. Just trying to illustrate a point that given high mit and careful play, you dont need to use FA.

EDIT: Also factor in that as elites lose health, their max reflect cap is lowered. They can only reflect 10% of their max current HP.

06/19/2013 10:32 PMPosted by Trefnwyd
That's a lot of slots on my gear which can be freed up for more intel/vit/etc


You should aim for int/vit/ar for all slots anyway. At least that should be the aim. Not saying it will be possible immediately but through crafting and upgrades sure. I'm advocating a balance in stats on your gear for long term gearing goals.

06/19/2013 10:32 PMPosted by Trefnwyd
I think ehp is less relevant than dps/life steal in terms of tanking once ~500k ehp and ~200k dps is achieved.


EHP is a terrible indicator of survivability anyway. It's grossly inflated by HP. HP is only a buffer for burst damage (and things like helping sustain from a shortfall from reflect dmg taken). A person with 120k HP but 86% mit is still going to struggle....yet they will have a very impressive EHP. Total mitigation is more important than EHP
Edited by kurOsawa#2301 on 6/20/2013 2:42 AM PDT
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I crit SB for 2 million
SB reflects 200k dmg (@10%)
After total dmg reduction (UNBUFFED TDR @ 90.5%) I take 18.1k dmg

LS: @3% (0.006%) - 2 million crit = 12000 hp healed
Shortfall (dmg taken) = 6100hp

Dmg taken would be less if increased MIT through GF&GI was factored. But to keep it simple, those arent used.

So, at 85k HP it would take me 14 secs to die all other factors remaining the same. SW on 15 sec cooldown for 2 sec activation for partial heal. Also factor in hex and mass confusion.


The shortfall is 6100 per crit, per target. If you run into a blue reflect pack (3-4 elites) you lose 18,300-24,400 hp per crit. If you run into a yellow pack with 4 minions you'll lose 30,500 hp per crit. If you run into two reflect packs you're screwed. Most importantly, all of your life steal is used up on mitigating the reflect. So any damage you take from elite attacks can't be regained through life steal. It's like going into a normal elite pack without a life steal weapon. Not great for tanking...And on reflects, buffing dps only makes it worse (ie. hex, paranoia, voodoo, overawe, guiding light, etc). The only way to effectively deal with reflect on a 1h setup is to either use FA or to kite. Proper tanking is not an option without FA with only 3% life steal. I know SW helps a lot, but it also helps when using FA...

06/20/2013 02:10 AMPosted by kurOsawa
You should aim for int/vit/ar for all slots anyway. At least that should be the aim. Not saying it will be possible immediately but through crafting and upgrades sure. I'm advocating a balance in stats on your gear for long term gearing goals.

I agree, but armor is often a particularly difficult attribute to get on a wd. It's not easy to get armor on good crafts (shoulders, gloves, and bracers); it's not efficient to get it on jewellery, helm, belt, or boots (AR is better); which basically leaves chest armor and pants. Getting armor on the other items almost always requires sacrificing another important slot. Want it on boots? You need to sacrifice AR. Want it on bracers? Good luck crafting a pair with +300 intel, AR, 6%cc and then armor as well. AR is always a better end-game option over armor (due to item limits). Getting to 4k armor requires having +rolls on 3-4 pieces of gear. Using FA allows these slots to be used for more intel, PUR, vit, etc while also having 6k armor.

06/20/2013 02:10 AMPosted by kurOsawa
Total mitigation is more important than EHP

I couldn't agree more :)
Edited by Trefnwyd#6696 on 6/20/2013 7:10 AM PDT
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So I love the idea of frightning aspect.. but i hate the idea of fear with CoB

ive decided to go more armor route and its paying off tremendously!


dude, forget CoB. The pro move is plague bats.

Armor and AR is the way to go and if reflect is truly an issue, add more physical resists. I've added two slots with physical and i've noticed a difference

but i'm still looking for that chest to put me around 4200 armor
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@Trefynwyd
Youre obviously a very experienced doc so I dont really know what else to say. I ran VotA and Desolate just now to check I wasnt going nuts with my thinking. 3 reflect packs - archers, those spinning skirt things, and those samurai style fat lacuni looking things - no deaths and no kiting. A bit close on the spinners but the other two were simple. Short of uploading a video for you, which is so much effort, I think we will have to agree to disagree :)
Edited by kurOsawa#2301 on 6/20/2013 8:01 AM PDT
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06/20/2013 07:06 AMPosted by Trefnwyd
I agree, but armor is often a particularly difficult attribute to get on a wd. It's not easy to get armor on good crafts (shoulders, gloves, and bracers); it's not efficient to get it on jewellery, helm, belt, or boots (AR is better); which basically leaves chest armor and pants. Getting armor on the other items almost always requires sacrificing another important slot. Want it on boots? You need to sacrifice AR. Want it on bracers? Good luck crafting a pair with +300 intel, AR, 6%cc and then armor as well. AR is always a better end-game option over armor (due to item limits). Getting to 4k armor requires having +rolls on 3-4 pieces of gear. Using FA allows these slots to be used for more intel, PUR, vit, etc while also having 6k armor.


Yes I agree its not easy to get Armor but you can get a little creative. Nearly 400 of my armor comes from my ammy and high armor ammys are way cheaper than AR ones. Stack a little STR here and there too. Viles gives you a ton of armor too. For marrows look for single roll vit and high armor and +life%. At my current vit that 9% on my marrow is equiv to 210 vit (when adding the inherent 99 vit roll I have there) This kind of marrow is a quarter to half the price of double vit. Pants - mine were 55m. Just have to be patients. There are loads of rare pants to choose from. Zuni boots...yes you do have to give up something so I went for max AR. WH - good place for armor if you get a high STR roll. DPS not so bad if you can then also get high asp and cd stats and much cheaper than the pure DPS WHs (double int vit AR etc). Rings are expensive with armor and yes I wouldnt recommend worrying to much about armor on those. It's all doable you just need to rethink the stats on your gear. And craft A LOT. I think with the exception of my ring I have int/vit everywhere. My focus on my mit has not diminished my ability to get the stats that you believe are lost due to having to fit armor on items.
Edited by kurOsawa#2301 on 6/20/2013 8:18 AM PDT
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06/20/2013 08:00 AMPosted by kurOsawa
I ran VotA and Desolate just now to check I wasnt going nuts with my thinking. 3 reflect packs


I think reflect % has a random roll, just as some molten are more painful that other molten (molten explosions too).

A steady benchmark will be Siegebreaker at MP10. I think that guy has stable reflect %. My guess is, Trefnwyd is right, you'll need Horrify:FA is you're on the 1H+mojo path.

As a Skorn user, I use Horrify:FA + JF passive even. Call me lazy, but that's the way I like to tank things.

By the way, what's all these got to do with Inna's?
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Not sure - inna -> questions about EHP -> Tre loving the FA -> my MIT rant - > derailed thread. Sorry :)

Ill try SB and Im sure its going to be difficult without FA...but then again, its not often you go and fight him for fun.
Edited by kurOsawa#2301 on 6/20/2013 8:36 AM PDT
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06/20/2013 08:33 AMPosted by kurOsawa
Ill try SB and Im sure its going to be difficult without FA...but then again, its not often you go and fight him for fun.


I do actually. Whenever I change gear and/or build, I'll go test on Ghom, Azmodan (at least 2 stacks of pools), SB, and sometimes face tank Belial too. I just like to be prepared for whatever the group feels like doing :)

PS: sorry OP, for derailing your thread!
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I'm sitting at 92.7% mit and with 2.7% LS, I can't sustain against say 3 elites that on RD at the same time without any other monsters around without RD on.

I just see my life drop steadily. which horrifies me. so I cast horrify to let them know how I feel about this and go back to work on them.

edit: oops I got side tracked by the recent posts. forgot this is a inna or no inna thread. It is the same answer as any other grey area gearing.
playstyle, skills you are using and your overall stats

do you dislike kiting? do you dislike tanking?
do you already have decent mit and HP? do you need mit and HP?
are you able to sustain added atk speed? are you not able to take on more atk spd?
do you like to have 24% MS? are you okay with 12% MS?
Edited by EremiteAngel#6608 on 6/20/2013 8:48 AM PDT
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Ill try SB and Im sure its going to be difficult without FA but then again, its not often you go and fight him for fun.


I do actually. Whenever I change gear and/or build, I'll go test on Ghom, Azmodan (at least 2 stacks of pools), SB, and sometimes face tank Belial too. I just like to be prepared for whatever the group feels like doing :)

PS: sorry OP, for derailing your thread!


Actually going back to your earlier point, reflect is not random. It's10 percent across the board. the dmg is also capped at 10% of the elites max current health.
Edited by kurOsawa#2301 on 6/20/2013 9:54 AM PDT
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I LOVE Inna's pants. I for some reason just love the way they help me farm on MP10. The extra attack speed with CoB is just insane. I recover my health so fast with 3% LS its not even funny.

I just have to be able to withstand a hit of those charging beasts in FoM and then just SW and carry on or just use SW when on cooldown. You do run into mana problems when the packs are small or mobs are few but i just ignore them.

With reflect damage I have a 5% LS Skorn and Blackthorn pants with 400 LoH but I die anyway on reflect packs so I dont see the point.

In anycase buy a pair and slot a Vit gem in one slot and bobs your uncle go and farm some MP10.
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Great discussion in this thread. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat ;)
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