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Hello Demon Hunters,
Thought I'd try to get some US feedback on this. I've posted it on the Eu and trying to get as much useful information from everyone as I can. Thank you if you take the time to read through, watch my vid and make a comment.
Original thread: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7646655242
Personally, I don't feel this is unsuccessful, more just a lot harder to master... Some elites are major tough, which is the main thing I'm trying to solve the way around. Some good suggestions have been made on the eu so far, looking forward to hearing from you over this side of the pond.
Note: I’m not trying to show how you “should” play ranged or telling anyone this is the way to do it. Just wanted to make a video of me playing some ranged builds and styles on mp10 and share it with you guys. I dont claim to be amazing or anything, just venturing to make ranged play work for me.
I’ve varied the builds throughout the movie and tried to get a mix of elites to fight against, but had some pretty limited time to record these…
Please note I will make and upload some more of these vids next week and I’ll try and find some more challenging packs, most of these in the video are relatively easy.
I discovered if I am to suffer no deaths then I really have to go for my stun ranger style build. Some elite packs are easier to kite and stay ranged from, but others are just a complete and utter nightmare.
Keeping things stunned really helps keep them at bay (well dah!)
I’ll probably be using this build to take on the harder packs in my next video upload.
Normally anything with the following affixes is going to be a tough group:
Vortex – Sucks you in, no longer ranged (have to spend disc or time getting away again)
Waller – Stops you getting away and they can crowd you
Jailer – See waller
Fast – Impossible to outrun without continuous vault or caltrops (bye bye disc – no shadow power for me)
Teleporter – Basically impossible to keep ranged, always one enemy in your face
Horde – The more to take down the harder it is to keep away from
Illusionist – Same as horde, although easier to kill (however see video…)
Reflect Damage – All disc spent on Shadow Power, none left for other means of escape (caltrops or vault)
I think then when encountering a pack that has any 2 of the above affixes means that you will probably have to face tank them.
I don’t know about others but I find these mobs virtually impossible to stay ranged against in the style that I play.
Maybe Buttran’s build and playstyle is better for these type of packs…
He’s def not glass canon and kinda half ranged half tanky. When I try and be a tank with my build and gear it really shows my weak spots. I can just about do it with gloom, but sometimes I get wiped out completely (see video against Elite Phasebeasts).
In the part with the Phasebeasts that own me all over the place I wanted to show a pack that I find virtually impossible to range against. Tried to tank them and for me it only half works (more EHP needed or what! =D) As oyu can see I kinda lose the will to live in this battle :P and experience some crazy lag which definitely doesn’t help matters.
Stutter stepping helps for keeping a range and for kiting back a bit. I’m not great at it yet so cant crowd control with it like some of the better dudes out there, but it helps.
Anyway, just wanted to share this with the community and catch your thoughts. More to come on the video front next week when I get some recording opportunities.
Video is sped up slightly (2/3 time) to make it shorter overall…
IMO if you are a player who makes an attack before the mobs react you are playing range, no matter what kind of excuse you will be bring up. That is the truth advantage of having a range class, you can attack before they can. (I'm not referring to OP)
The game is designed to cut the "range" between you and the mobs, so THEY can deal damage, their is nothing wrong with that. But there are far too less range mobs. The only kind they have in the game are the summoners, guardians, succubus, mosquitoes, quill rats, fire bats, and sketelon archers.
Each class are given melee and range attacks, Demon Hunter and Wizard are classified as range, I would not classify Witch Doctor as one as their attacks are too short. Demon Hunter being the only class that have almost no melee attack makes it a complete range class, and if you play well you accurately play better than trying to stay side by side with monsters.
@D3mon. Sup! I hear BlackVenom has become the "GCB ambassador" on the EU's lately lol. Anyways, I watched the vid and it's definitely an improvement from your previous ones. Nice work man.
From what I gather reading your post, you want some critique, but at the same time I'm sure you want it within your relative style of play. This is not easy to do as we play a bit differently haha, but I can give some insight that may help or rethink some options.
When facing certain packs, you may want to consider changing the order of attacks. I often see you alternate 1 and 1 with ES and Bola which is fine for the easy packs, but for those that you know will creep up on you, you may want to shoot a bit more ES's starting off so that you have more time to react and ensure they are slowed. From looking at your vid, the packs you had a harder time with are the ones you also did not have constant crowd control with (order of attacks here). This caused an "oh !@#$" reaction which had you lay down caltrops, panic gloom and a vault almost all at the same time, destroying your disc pool near the start of battle. I'm not saying that this will get you through all hard packs easy peasy obviously, but what I am saying is that if you allow the pack to control you at the start of the fight, you're already setting yourself up for a much harder fight than it should be until you die (sometimes it may just be faster to die and start the approach over, as silly as this sounds).
I do not feel Caltrops was useful for you. I believe you were using the 80% rune, which in theory should really help, but with you're already pretty mobile with vault and against E's, unless using torturous grounds, you're only delaying the inevitable by a second, maybe 2 if you're lucky. It's just not worth the disc cost IMO and does not synergize well with vault when you already have a slow and given your playstyle. I understand why you spec it, but I feel there's a better option to compliment vault (more on that later).
Also, be careful with sporadic vaults. I know you absolutely love this skill, but I'm also sure you know the drawbacks. There's a noticeable lag at the start of vault and when you land in which you have no control of your character in that time frame. Not speaking about the edps loss here, but more so it's a bit more difficult to vault around "safely" due to what i mentioned above and the fact that you're completely vulnerable during the animations. There were times in the vid where you got hit while you were vaulting and instantly had to pop a shadow power to prevent death and once where you took a few hits during vault and died when you landed :( This scenario sucks, but there's a solution that will synergize with vault and also conserve some disc at the same, while keeping you alive a bit longer in those crazy scenarios.
Instead of using caltrops, try slotting RoV: Dark Cloud. I know I mentioned this before, but I didn't go into detail. Learn to snapshot this skill and it will save your life in some extreme situations. Pop this thing roughly at the 4th second during your shadow power and you'll have free life leech that heal you completely per tick for the next 11 to 12 seconds while the arrows follow you around. If you're DH can take 1 hit, you can forgo having to use shadow power nearly as often, and you can vault more with peace of mind that if you get hit during, you'll heal instantly during the next tick of dark cloud. This is also extremely helpful against those dangerous affixs like vortex, frozen, jailor etc, where you have no control over your character for a short time. It's this very skill that allows me to run with only one defensive skill (glide) and no disc regenerators on mp 10. It also does fairly ok damage when it crits, so a win-win situation, however learning how to time/when to use it comes with practice.
Vortex – Sucks you in, no longer ranged (have to spend disc or time getting away again)
Not too sure what to tell you here other than what I mentioned above. Reflect damage is the only one that really gives me trouble since I'm critting for more than my EHP/LS even with Shadow power active (insta-one shot myself whenever I crit for more than 1.5 mil). The others I'm able to get out of/avoid with efficient stepping and well timed shadow glides, but I'm certain this isn't what you wanted to hear, as it's not really your style :( If you ever start to incorporate a bit more efficient stepping into your style, you'll run into less headaches tbh.
Anyways, this is getting rather long so i'll cut it here. There are a few other things I can say, but It looks like you aren't trying to venture towards the edps side just yet, just moreso being able to stay alive :D I've recently perfected a new build I created a few weeks ago, you may see venom on the EU server attempt it, but it's pretty much spanking whites and E's alike at ranged with many compliments from fellow monks (and of course GCB DH's) I run with. Once I get my SSD drive to lesser my lag issues, I'll be doing some recording myself and an extensive write up. Hope this all helped a little and don't succumb to the dark side! (I read the EU version of this thread too :P)
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 6/16/2013 4:39 AM PDT
For ranged play Caltrops by itself isn't enough. It slows monsters down, but if they're being very aggressive toward you it's not good enough.
The biggest key is that you have to be able to drop the monster's aggression toward you somehow.
You need other distractions and have to play off of that. Smokescreen could help you, as it can drop aggro, but if you keep attacking with no pause that isn't gonna work either as they'll keep coming after you. Companion Boar, Wolf, and Spider also come into play here, and to spec your follower to survive.
With a combination of skills like Smokescreen, Companion, and Caltrops then the Caltrops slow the enemies down and smokescreen you drop from sight and then they'll turn focus toward your Companion and follower. However, if you keep spamming attacks then they'll continue gunning for you no matter what.
Also reliance on Shadow Power as the only means of restoration will also hurt, because Shadow Power only restores when you're attacking. And if you're constantly attacking with bow attacks you're drawing and keeping aggro. A weapon with Life Steal on it can be a pretty big deal as it helps you to conserve discipline, because Smokescreen is key for controlling aggression.
Experiment with the attacks you like using, firing them and not at all, etc. Against the different types of monsters in the game just to test how they aggro.
When you're doing it right, you can have an elite pack all just wailing on your Companion and follower and completely ignoring you.
Try certain attacks, Spike Traps, Caltrops, Grenades, Hungering Arrow, Elemental Arrow, anything you can think of. See how the monsters react when you have a companion out in conjunction with certain attacks.
Think about what it's like when playing in a multiplayer run, and how sometimes it seems as if no matter what you do the monsters will even ignore your teammates and come straight toward you.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/16/2013 6:10 AM PDT
Also, particular affixes are going to be targeted toward you no matter what, as long as you're in the general vicinity. For example if you're up against a yellow pack that has waller, even if the monsters and the champ itself isn't focusing on you they'll throw the U shape wall up on you anyway if you're in the range for them to do it.
It's the same deal with Mortar, how even if you're in a multi and none of the monsters are even looking in your general direction(focusing on the other players), mortars are still going to be flying your way.
Same deal with Desecrate and Plagued and Arcane.
And as such, from my understanding, this should be the case with things like Teleport, too. Obviously for Vortex.
Lastly, if you notice, your follower and companion will stick close to you but if you actually deal damage to something they'll run out toward what you were attacking. So for example if you use a Spike Trap and blast a monster that is on the edge of your screen, your Companion is going to run up to it.
Hey dudes, thanks for your responses.
DiEoxidE I replied on the eu thread to yours, cheers for your input.
Actionkungfu, nice suggestions. I've got quite a bit to get on with and rest an I like the ideas you bring forth with the use of companions.
My main probs with companions is that they seem to die when I new them most of all. My ehp is pretty low and they don't have much survival. If a dangerous pack gets around them then they fold under the pressure and end up being a wasted skill slot :/ probably works a lot better for players with gear suited for them to survive, but then the companions might not be needed as much :P
Anyway some good suggestions there and I have a lot to test out that I'll post more results on.
My mission for a long time has been to create a playstyle and set of builds that will make being ranged as a demon hunter on high mp levels more accessible to everyone.
Steppin had been a big part that which I have invorperated into the playstyle. I know I'm no pro at it, but it's definitely helpe me become a better ranged player. Thing is I wanna make this work without becoming a master of stepping, I wanna make it accessible as I say. People wanna play ranged and don't know how, don't have the time to master somethin like stepping but could grasp the basics.
Maybe it's not possible to be effective as a ranged character in this game without mastering somethinike the stepping technique, but it's not always skill either that had a drawback on this method of play. Lag plays a big part in it for me. If I'm lagging even slightly I find it soooo tough to step well around mobs.
Anyway, love doing all this testing anyway, it's a good project. Apreciate any feedback and tips that can be thrown my way so ty.
Makes me wonder.. since Gloom lets you take reduced damage.. can Companion snapshot the Rune..
Meh.. just theorizing :)
I've played with Die, Nyan and Tropical and they know how horrible my latency can become.. hence.. I can delve too much into steppin.. *sigh*
So sad about it though. But I'm rocking a WF + Strongarm(Nyan) for almost 55% KB Chance.
With 3 CoTs, ES-SC + HA-CA on a single mob.. they just.. stay on the wall if they can be KB'ed XD
EDIT: No one ever tried a numerous Hatred Gen build.. right? Maximum I saw was 3.. maybe 4.. I wonder >_<
Stun Grenades, Shock Collar, Thunder Ball/ID, Cinder + Gloom & some other skill.. Haha.
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 6/16/2013 7:46 AM PDT
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