Diablo® III

Sleet Storm FAQ and Checklist

06/20/2013 07:13 AMPosted by Blizzz
At 1.88 aps I have zero issues with arcane.


Very nice! 20 APoC does wonders.
- Diablo III (Wizard)
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Awesome Raf...thanks!

I just wish AS00 was still around to update the Wiz compendium. This (along with other [Guides]) would be great to put somewhere. Alas...haven't seen him in a long time.
Updated to add this link: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8178678115
Hey guys,

Thanks for the accurate feedback. This FAQ/Checklist was meant as an entry-level way to understand Sleet Storm. I could get into the higher end math, but I think a lot of players just want to understand the basics at this point. Please keep posting more info in this thread, though.

I completely understand that, but some of the info is wrong and that should be fixed.
SS AP cost per tick is 8, not 16.
And there's no way in hell those breakpoints are correct.
It's basically the same as for WW, just without the total ticks, because duration is variable. It makes more sense to look at ticks/second.
Hey guys,

Thanks for the accurate feedback. This FAQ/Checklist was meant as an entry-level way to understand Sleet Storm. I could get into the higher end math, but I think a lot of players just want to understand the basics at this point. Please keep posting more info in this thread, though.

I completely understand that, but some of the info is wrong and that should be fixed.
SS AP cost per tick is 8, not 16.
And there's no way in hell those breakpoints are correct.
It's basically the same as for WW, just without the total ticks, because duration is variable. It makes more sense to look at ticks/second.


According to the info in your guides,

But AP cost for channeled spells is "paid" per tick and the tooltip only states the per second value for 1 APS. Now cost reduction is NOT as simple as reducing that per second value and calculating a new per tick value. In general, you get more reduction (less cost) than you'd expect. But I don't know how to calculate the exact value.
Might also be related to the unknown damage ticks scaling.


1 second of channeling = 1 tooltip cost?

That's not true.

I completely understand that, but some of the info is wrong and that should be fixed.
SS AP cost per tick is 8, not 16.


Where did you get that from?
Careful:
Tooltip value is per second and at 1 APS.
At 1 APS, RoF has 2 ticks per second.
So cost per tick is tooltip value divided by 2.

1 second of channeling = 1 tooltip cost is true, but only if you are at 1 APS (or rather within the 1 APS breakpoint which start's at 0.96775 APS)
Careful:
Tooltip value is per second and at 1 APS.
At 1 APS, RoF has 2 ticks per second.
So cost per tick is tooltip value divided by 2.

1 second of channeling = 1 tooltip cost is true, but only if you are at 1 APS (or rather within the 1 APS breakpoint which start's at 0.96775 APS)


Gotcha, updating.
What apo said is correct.

1 second of channeling = 1 tooltip cost?That's not true.


The tooltip is listing the cost at 1 APS. You have to multiply it by your APS - much like WDs have to with their mana costs. Tooltip x APS may not be quite accurate (costs go by breakpoints) but it will be pretty close.

06/20/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Rafazafar
Where did you get that from?


RoF has a tick coefficient of 2. The tooltip specifies 16 AP/sec (@ 1 APS). 1 APS = 2 ticks per second. Therefore Cost per second/Ticks per second (16/2) = 8 AP per tick.

-dolynick

Edit: I see apo posted the same thing while I was writing this reply. Oops.
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 6/20/2013 2:33 PM PDT
What apo said is correct.

1 second of channeling = 1 tooltip cost?That's not true.


The tooltip is listing the cost at 1 APS. You have to multiply it by your APS - much like WDs have to with their mana costs. Tooltip x APS may not be quite accurate (costs go by breakpoints) but it will be pretty close.

06/20/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Rafazafar
Where did you get that from?


RoF has a tick coefficient of 2. The tooltip specifies 16 AP/sec (@ 1 APS). 1 APS = 2 ticks per second. Therefore Cost per second/Ticks per second (16/2) = 8 AP per tick.

-dolynick

Edit: I see apo posted the same thing while I was writing this reply. Oops.


Does the update make sense now?
You could simply say that the cost of SS is:

(Tooltip Cost - Reductions) x APS

and

Ticks per second (for procs) is:

APS x 2

It's not completely accurate but it works out pretty much at the right number. I am fairly certain that cost reductions (Prism, Power of the Storm) get taken off the base 1 APS cost before ticks and APS are factored in. There may be some more mathematical voodoo going on which may be slightly different but a lot of this was looked at by WDs when CoB was revamped and in the end, if you worked it out like it was pretty accurate.

You want this to be a simple guide, those are the easiest way to put it and they should be reliably accurate.

Damage for SS is actually 364% x weapon hit damage x APS. Which basically works out to:

3.64 x Sheet DPS (at all APS speeds)

Things that don't apply sheet DPS (Conflag, Arcane Dynamo, Time Warp, Cold Blooded, Elite Damage) can be a little tricky. Everything but CB and Elite DMG multiplies on weapon damage before the 3.64. CB and Elite DMG multiply the finished number after the 3.64.

Notice that the damage doesn't actually scale with APS the way the costs do. That's why slower weapons are a much better choice, since if you have the same sheet dps 1H vs 2H but at lower APS you get the same output but at a lower cost. That's why Skorn is so popular for this kind of build. The downside is that tick rate trade-off. If you want procs (for CM, electrify, SA, etc), then faster is better IF you can pay for the increased cost, but you won't actually do more damage per second from SS itself.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 6/20/2013 3:01 PM PDT
Notice that the damage doesn't actually scale with APS the way the costs do. That's why slower weapons are a much better choice, since if you have the same sheet dps 1H vs 2H but at lower APS you get the same output but at a lower cost. That's why Skorn is so popular for this kind of build. The downside is that tick rate trade-off. If you want procs (for CM, electrify, SA, etc), then faster is better IF you can pay for the increased cost, but you won't actually do more damage per second from SS itself.


You just blew my mind. I'm going to go test and confirm this, but what you're basically saying is that 1.0 < 1.49 but that 1.5 < 1.0 for a Skorn.
You just blew my mind. I'm going to go test and confirm this, but what you're basically saying is that 1.0 < 1.49 but that 1.5 < 1.0 for a Skorn.


I'm not sure I follow what you just said but I'll give a clear example:

2 Wizards.
Wiz #1 is wand + source and is 150k dps @1.5 APS
Wiz #2 is Skorn and is also 150k dps but @1 APS

They both fire SS.

Wiz 1 does 150x3.64 = 546k dps with SS and pays 24 AP/s, gets 3 ticks/s
Wiz 2 does 150x3.64 = 546k dps with SS and pays 16 AP/s, gets 2 ticks/s

Basically, Wiz 1 pays 50% more AP for the same exact same damage output but gets 50% more ticks or proc chances per second.

Now, Wiz 1 may have 20 APoC vs Wiz 2s 10 APoC, so he can recoup a bit of that extra cost but APoC does not scale equally with APS (unless you have 100% CC and even then proc rates on skills still screw you to varying degrees) and they both have 10 AP/s regen so it's more like 14 vs 6 for costs. Still, you can see the idea. Faster is less efficient use of AP but buys you more proc chances (and that's it).

The above would also be true for 2 Skorn users, one at 1 APS and the other at 1.5 APS. But in this case it's unlikely that they'd be at the same dps on sheet and the faster Skorn user wouldn't have more potential APoC to help balance (a little) than the other.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 6/20/2013 3:34 PM PDT
You just blew my mind. I'm going to go test and confirm this, but what you're basically saying is that 1.0 < 1.49 but that 1.5 < 1.0 for a Skorn.


I'm not sure I follow what you just said but I'll give a clear example:

2 Wizards.
Wiz #1 is wand + source and is 150k dps @1.5 APS
Wiz #2 is Skorn and is also 150k dps but @1 APS

They both fire SS.

Wiz 1 does 150x3.64 = 546k dps with SS and pays 24 AP/s, gets 3 ticks/s
Wiz 2 does 150x3.64 = 546k dps with SS and pays 16 AP/s, gets 2 ticks/s

Basically, Wiz 1 pays 50% more AP for the same exact same damage output but gets 50% more ticks or proc chances per second.

Now, Wiz 1 may have 20 APoC vs Wiz 2s 10 APoC, so he can recoup a bit of that extra cost but APoC does not scale equally with APS (unless you have 100% CC and even then proc rates on skills still screw you to varying degrees) and they both have 10 AP/s regen so it's more like 14 vs 6 for costs. Still, you can see the idea. Faster is less efficient use of AP but buys you more proc chances (and that's it).

The above would also be true for 2 Skorn users, one at 1 APS and the other at 1.5 APS. But in this case it's unlikely that they'd be at the same dps on sheet and the faster Skorn user wouldn't have more potential APoC to help balance (a little) than the other.

-dolynick


Ok. Then I was right to begin with. Damage doesn't scale with attack speed. It scales the ticks only. Tick damage is distributed equally per-second, so 3 ticks at 18 dps = 6 dmg per tick ... 2 ticks at 18 dps = 9 damage per tick. However each tick is a proc chance at the cost of AP.

Sheet DPS doesn't really factor in, though, does it? So if you have 190k sheet damage and 1.08 attacks per second, if you swap one item with exact same stats for another with same stats +8% AS, your sheet damage goes up, say, 10k to 200k, but effectively, this doesn't actually increase your damage, right?

Therefore, unless you have a compelling 1h combo, Skorn > 1h+src most of the time.
06/20/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Rafazafar
Sheet DPS doesn't really factor in, though, does it? So if you have 190k sheet damage and 1.08 attacks per second, if you swap one item with exact same stats for another with same stats +8% AS, your sheet damage goes up, say, 10k to 200k, but effectively, this doesn't actually increase your damage, right?


It may not modify your damage per tick, but you might go up a break point and shorten your ticks. This information is actually in Nubtro's post. 1.0000 to 1.08 would actually be 3 break points higher. Damage per tick is a function of weapon per hit damage, the tick length (and thus frequency) is a function of attack speed. Your premise might hold true at a MUCH higher APS (where the BP are considerably farther apart) but not at 1.0000 APS. Think of it as BPs on WW (which is exactly how it works really), the higher APS you get the wider the gaps between BPs are. They are very close together at 1 APS, but we all know how far apart they are once you get to 2.143, 2.308, 2.5001, 2.728, 3.0001, etc.

Damage DOES scale with attack speed. It obviously does just by looking at your sheet dps. What you need to remember is that sheet dps consists of two things. Weapon hit damage and frequency. Modifying one or the other has different effects. Weapon damage is completely linear in change but tick speed works in steps (what we call breakpoints) that are a result of the 60fps engine speed. When you are working with IAS and breakpoints you need to consider that if you take it to an extreme (2+ aps for instance), then you start to run into diminishing returns. That shouldn't be much of a factor for SS though as it will me more or less unsustainable anyways at that APS and the user would be doing it for other reasons (procs with burst casting).

If you're looking for sustained casting then high(er) per hit weapons (typically slow), +avg dmg or +elemental dmg is a far better option than IAS. The problem is that, ultimately, there is a limit to how far you can take that and stacking IAS then becomes the only means of increasing damage per second - by increasing the number of ticks after maxing out tick damage.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 6/20/2013 5:21 PM PDT
Could you also include some suggestions on recommended EHP for MP10?

My mit is decent at 86.6%, but my eHP is way too low at the moment to pull Sleet Storm off, even at lower MP's.
Edited by Covenant#6857 on 6/20/2013 7:39 PM PDT
Very useful FAQ. But something troubles me though - we haven't really moved away from CM/SNS as we like to think. We are still thinking of high mit from gear (89% and above), even with LS, and offensive skills, rather than say a more balanced mix of mit, defensive skills and LS.

Also I think there is less a core build than suggested - SS seems to be the only necessary skill; Reactive Armor is a choice for a offensive skill build. One can use Prismatic or Crystallise for a more balanced set.

There is also Void's IAS SS guide yesterday. I use a variant of that at 2.1 asp with Prism and Prismatic and it works great on MP10.

So SS is quite fluid now, until a time when a specific build becomes predominant.
Edited by rahl#6100 on 6/20/2013 7:38 PM PDT
can you post min stats needed and recommended.

Also what's the cost?
can you post min stats needed and recommended.

Also what's the cost?


Nope and nope.

Stats are dependent on your build. There is no key build, and I don't think one exists. It's situational.

Cost varies with market price.
If you crit, you crit each frame until the next tick.

Absolutely certain that's how it's working.

The proc coefficient of SS is 0.18

If you crit, the apoc is added on the first frame of the crit, right? But it does so at the frequency that you tick. If you tick for 3.0/s, since the formula is at 30 frames per second, you get an even 10 frames or 0.6 times your apoc on each crit. If you crit for three ticks in a row, you get 1.8 times your apoc each second.

Is this correct?
Edited by Rafazafar#1562 on 6/20/2013 11:10 PM PDT
You´re right about the part that if you crit on the determining frame, each subsequent frame will crit until the game checks for another tick. That´s what I posted in the link I gave you. You´re also right about the moment APoC is added and about the frequency.

The last part is wrong though. The actual AP value you gain from APoC depends on the proc coefficient not on the tick frequency. The tick frequency and your crit chance determines how often APoC may roll, if you get a crit (in your case each 10 frames) then you also get AP that equals to (total APoC*skill proc coefficient).

APoC works similar to LoH in the way that proc coefficients modify your total value - which you always get if you crit (in case of LoH always when you hit). This is different than for example Barb´s 15 Fury on crits from Into the Fray (ITF). There, if you roll a crit you´re not guaranteed fury because there is one more roll for an ITF proc (depending on the skill proc coefficient) that grants the full amount of Fury. You only get fury if your roll both, in case of APoC you always get a portion of arcane power if you crit as a Wizard, but the value you get depends on the proc coefficient of the skill.

Also, Sleet Storm proc coefficient is apparently 0.1875.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 6/21/2013 6:19 AM PDT
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