Diablo® III

Archon's new video on DH's


"so your idea is to remove constant CM, Archon, WW barbs and then give some sets that will give the ability back? Moreover, through another grind? Basically, you suggest nerfing all chars and then make ppl work for sth that they had before but was taken away from them? sounds really lackluster and artificial."

The basic idea isn't that bad. The way he proposes it makes it bad. If you add some super rare items that will make you feel overpowered you will just add another mindless grind as you said and take the fun out of the game for a large part of the player base.

D2 did something similar but managed to keep hardcore player as well as casual players motivated. You did have incredible strong and rare items like Griffons that were designed for very specific builds. But they also had incredible strong and abundant items like Spirit, Vipermage that were very fast to get. This system allowed players to feel powerful almost regardless of playtime but also rewarded the more hardcore players by giving them some extra builds that were not much stronger than the cookie cutter builds but still something special.
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06/23/2013 03:04 PMPosted by METATRON
they are both using multiple skills at once stacking tremendous damage into eDPS


We were.. somehow.. Like that.

Well.. not really but..

Remember Jagged Spikes? When it still has a proc Coeff? Even if it was terribad damage, it was still a GREAT and epic skill.

They also lowered Shuriken Cloud's coeff, and Gas Grenade's coeff.

We only have FEW skills that can go all at once.. such build would be..
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#lYkXTe!fUX!abbcbc

Question now is.. how will you make that build work?

That.. I'll try. Now. LOL

But really.. the problem is.. we really can't do much damage as them.. That's just it.

If we'll do a MP10 Azmo, sure, we can do it, but still lag a bit compared with the others.. But how many MP10 Azmo/Ghom will you be fighting? I mean.. 1v1 situations?

EDIT:
I'll predict that.. when the great 1.09 Patch comes.. We'll all re-gear to some extent.. BIG TIME.

EDIT:
06/23/2013 11:12 PMPosted by RaveaAngel
I think this probably sums it all. We need skills that hit really hard, cost little and possibly stack with each other. RF hits reasonably hard, cost decent but it does not stack well with others since all the hatred is used on RF

And usually.. Disc we have during that time are reserved in snapshotting Shadow Power..

Its fun being a barb, just HotA/WW everything.. just stacking LoH/LS on weapon + Belt >_<

It's kinda silly to derp ourselves in using a 3Piece Asheara for a 2.5% LS.. the stats on those items are HORRID. And even then.. with the decrease in DPS, the LS benefit is overturned, hence useless.
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 6/24/2013 9:09 AM PDT
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The biggest problem concerning eDPS is that we are not like Monks and Witch Doctors we don't have massive damage enhancement, and unlike Barbarian and Wizard we don't have MANY aoe that can stack or deal dot.

Never mind that most classes except DH's dont NEED a resource generator, seems like every other class uses a generator just to get their endless resource spender engines running and once the chain begins theres no need for them. Monks still use them and i feel they are honestly the most balanced in the game right now but thats my opinion.

Also the reason we have the most skill diversity is because all our skills basically suck equally lol! the ones that do shine well they are almost always a must have. Nowadays its rapid fire or spike traps, shadow power and archery. All our other skills dont really matter to influence our decision lol

Meta I have to disagree here.

2 build I run without primary generator
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#PQXYkV!UbT!cZcbYc
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#SjgXTV!fbX!ZbZYbZ

A lot of skills are GOOD, but they take a bit of work to play around.
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06/24/2013 09:12 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
A lot of skills are GOOD, but they take a bit of work to play around.


And some builds are for specific situations.. Impreza's non-Hatred Gen build with RF excels in Farming Elites.. but with a few modifications, it can cater to normal farming as well.

Builds also pretty much surrounds the gears we have too. Maybe its just because they just have way better synergy than us.. I mean.. we got to admit, we're snapshotting Shadow Power.. which is either a Bug or.. it's working as intended in the sense that.. they won't change it just so that DHs still has something. Haha.
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06/24/2013 08:56 AMPosted by Poekel
The basic idea isn't that bad. The way he proposes it makes it bad. If you add some super rare items that will make you feel overpowered you will just add another mindless grind as you said and take the fun out of the game for a large part of the player base.


No his idea is bad. Blizz should really step up. If something is breaking the game e.g. NT hitting multiple times, ToC super damage...then you nerf it as soon as you can.

They have identified CM etc. as breaking the game, they need to fix it ASAP but they are dragging their feet as they are worried about gamers' reaction. Delay will only lead to more players investing time, Gold and real money into such "exploity" builds which in turn will lead to an even bigger uproar when they nerf it later on.

These "exploity" builds hurt everyone. DHs complain because they see less geared wiz/barbs farm better then them...but Wiz/Barbs (who benefit from the exploits) will also complain as what they see as lack of build diversity. If they fix this, then people will try other cool skills that the wiz/barbs have and build diversity will be less of an issue.

Its like us if they never nerfed NT, Smokescreen or ToC, then DH will also have no build diversity.

What I don't understand is why Blizz is so quick to fix DH and so slow to fix the other classes.

In the end I agree with Travis Day and I kind of agree with Archon. DH is in a good place in terms of different builds being viable and actually being fun to play etc. (I still need a DPS bump to match the monk)...the other classes are OP and that must be addressed via the most direct means possible. Deal with them how we dealt with ss, NT, jagged spikes, gas grenades etc.
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Tbh. For DH's to roll on the same level as barbs/archon wiz/ CM wiz/ SW monks. Nightstalker should be buffed, proc rates on skills should be doubled or tripled.

Trail of cinders should be buffed to about 1000% damage.

Jagged Spikes on Spike traps should be buffed to 500% damage.

AOE on choking gas on smoke screen should have a 10-15 yard AOE.
Edited by Uberjager#6563 on 6/24/2013 9:29 AM PDT
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Tbh. For DH's to roll on the same level as barbs/archon wiz/ CM wiz/ SW monks. Nightstalker should be buffed, proc rates on skills should be doubled or tripled.

Trail of cinders should be buffed to about 1000% damage.

Jagged Spikes on Spike traps should be buffed to 500% damage.

AOE on choking gas on smoke screen should have a 10-15 yard AOE.


Yup.. an increase in Choking Gas' AoE will really be a welcoming buff.. It'll make SS, somehow, once again, Viable.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#lYkXTe!fUX!abbcbc

Err.. I tried this build on MP4. It works. you have to move so much though since you'd be running around your Chains to get them hit.

EDIT: I do wish they do something with FoK's cooldown.
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 6/24/2013 9:38 AM PDT
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This is what I got from Archon :

DH is at a good place at the moment, but Nyan needs to get nerfed.

Nyan : "Nuuuuuuu" *screaming cat*
Im back at June 2012 now.
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[quote="93621341455"]
These "exploity" builds hurt everyone.

No, they don't hurt everyone. I'd even go so far to say that these "exploity" builds cater to the majority of players.

The majority of players does not want a hard ARPG. They want a game that starts out with increasing difficulties that at some points get easier the better equipment you find until they eventually reach "god mode". Almost all Diablo style ARPGs worked this way.

These "exploity" builds basically hurt those players that either want a hard game (not the majority, the inferno debacle at the games start showed this quite drastically) or players who feel entitled that large amounts of playtime should grant them massive bonuses over player with less playtime ("after playing for 8 hours per day for a year I should be able to break the game; noobs should not though").

One problem now is that some vocal players fit in both 2 groups. If you want a hard game, it's not that hard to do. Play only selffound, don't use legendaries or sets, use only blue items, play iron man, play hardcore. You can do a lot of stuff to make the game harder if it's a challenge you want. but does not just seem to be about the challenge, it does seem to be about bragging rights too. The game should be challenging AND only the most hardcore players should be able to beat it (and find the best items, maybe make RL money out of it etc.).

Personally I think D2s system was quite genius as it allowed casual players to be almost in a similar league then hardcore players but gave those hardcore players still enough possibilities to show off and be a tiny bit "better" than those casuals (the hardcore player would use a Windforce, the casual player a Buriza. In terms of power both were quite similar, Windforce being a bit better, but one was just very very rare and the other not).
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Was Archon even talking about DHs? This was actually so hard to even watch, the first few statements show he has no clue what he's actually talking about. "it's not a damage or defense issue...." do you actually follow any of the DH forum posts? We know surviving MP10 is not hard if you know what Vitality and All resists are, hell you don't even need those affixes its called Gloom. "this DH is worth almost 40 Billion" and "I'm certain a 100mil wizard would.... " did you actually listen to yourself there? I don't think I even need to say anything to reinforce my comment there.

This seems more like 12 minutes of "I want our strong barb/wizard/monk builds shifted on to items. This way the strongest builds are 100% gear dependent, not 99%. This makes everyone on the same level until they become rich/lucky, providing a perfect bandaid solution for DHs. Until a lot of people have WoTB sets and CM sets. Then we're back to square one" But 100% gear dependent "exploity builds" is what we already have isn't it? With out ~2.71 ApS and 40% CC your not permafreezing anything as a CM, if you don't have over 2+ ApS and 30% CC you're not keeping WoTB up no matter what. You want to perma-TR? You're not gonna stack ApS and neglect spirit regeneration.

All builds on every class are gear dependent, that's how they designed this whole game, 100% gear dependent. He hasn't actually recognized a single issue with the DH, nor has he put in much reasoning as to why they "aren't issues" in his opinion. Like Metatron said, we only have skill diversity because all our skills suck equally. Our only "CM/WoTB" is Shadow Power, and it is insanely pitiful in comparison to WoTB or CM.

UGH, I hope no developers watch that video because it just reinforces there lack of true knowledge. I remember reading this somewhere else but I can't find it: "The developers are probably still throwing arcane orbs and shooting splinter darts" I honestly don't feel any of the developers play the game to the same degree as the community. They're so far detached from the community its disgusting, they don't know the builds, have shown no reason for us to believe that they can actually recognize and address issues properly and they take constructive criticism to personally. They're all delusional at Bliz HQ if they think the DH is fine. And if the DH is fine and the issue is that other classes are OP, then the Inferno/MP System isn't fine and needs tweaked as well, because once the OP builds are gone everyone will have the "DH Syndrome." But honestly those systems have been butchered and rehashed enough already. How about you actually look at the real issues?

-TSP
Edited by TastySouP#1157 on 6/24/2013 1:15 PM PDT
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^ Yup, i hope the developers dont see this and think its all fine and dandy, and the worst part is all his little followers are probably like yea DH's are fine! :D we've been saying! those pesky DH's always crying.

*sigh its sad that our class is kept down the hardest by other classes, the developers and even our own fellow DH's

Like i said in another post, what class actually asks for itself to be nerfed or non-buffed except DH's? In all seriousness lol were the only class that even keeps ourselves down half the time.

That said why is blizzard letting every other class keep its game breaking builds for so long and so worried about the players feelings when they didn't afford us any of the same treatment? We got the hardest and swiftest hitting nerfs with no mercy meanwhile everyone else gets a pass. Blizzard really did ruin this class overtime. Albeit some nerfs were due at the time, in comparison to today they are not so bad.

The life of the DH.... Developer Hindered class!

BTW-- If they made exploity builds go on gear we better get back our OP SS then! Knowing blizz tho they will just break the game for everyone else and give us a crappy game breaker just like they gave everyone else resource regen for their sets and decided thats too OP for DH lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 6/24/2013 12:33 PM PDT
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06/24/2013 12:29 PMPosted by METATRON
The life of the DH.... Developer Hindered class!

lmao

06/24/2013 12:29 PMPosted by METATRON
they gave everyone else resource regen for their sets and decided thats too OP for DH lol


I would have been much happier to see "Increases hatred regeneration by 3" or "Reduces Shadow Power's cost by 13." Either of those would be much nicer then what we got.

Speaking of which, which skill would you like to see as our "CM/WoTB" Full Set Bonus if we HAD to pick one?
I'd like to see maybe Night Stalker with 100% proc rate
Edited by TastySouP#1157 on 6/24/2013 12:44 PM PDT
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06/24/2013 12:29 PMPosted by METATRON
We got the hardest and swiftest hitting nerfs with no mercy meanwhile everyone else gets a pass.


Ah its so true. I know you guys still remember the caltrops nerf. Im still salty about that one. I just dont get what the deal was. They were so ready to increase build diversity for barbs...dev 1.04 legendary items blog post - "Some people want to try out a ranged barb. We think that's awesome. Here you go."

Cool, so you guys like build diversity and want people to try new things so you buff throwing weapon damage for barbs and give them a weapon to compliment it. But then you turn around and go "oh wait, DH's are tanking now? We dont like that. So we're gonna nerf you guys with no warning. Hope thats okay! Have fun guys!"

That was a big slap in the face. And then the "oh ToC was a bug, we dont like that you guys really enjoy playing your DH's a new way. You guys arent allowed to play your DH like that. So we're just gonna go ahead and nerf that too." I think they even said somewhere that they didnt like that DH's were using they're "defensive" resource to do damage and that it went against their intentions for the class. Mind you, that this was before vault was tweaked, and we still took damage mid vault. So apparently thats broken enough to fix the very next patch but game breaking builds like CM and WotB/WW isnt?

Just for the record blizz, most of us are not thankful.
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Like i said in another post, what class actually asks for itself to be nerfed or non-buffed except DH's? In all seriousness lol were the only class that even keeps ourselves down half the time.


I've seen this syndrome in so many games. Masochists and players with big egos tend to jump on the bad classes so they can be the guy that makes it work in spite of the system being against them.

The masochists will say things like "if we got X buff it would make DH too powerful" so they tend to ask for the silliest of non-buffs while the other classes are running rings around them.

The players with big egos will post some Ghom videos and eventually dump their gear on a monk or what have you. Unless they're getting enough attention from a forum fan club I guess.

Blackguards in Warhammer
Mercenary in SWTOR
At some points in the patch cycles of WOW: Warlock

For me it's always a style choice. I just like the style of certain things. Also whether I'm having fun or not. There is generally not a direct competition in this game like RVR PVP, for if there were DH in the current relative power level of PVE would not be tolerated by the player base.
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Also there is another factor here that you can be immensely successful on DH through the power of not playing a DH
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That said why is blizzard letting every other class keep its game breaking builds for so long and so worried about the players feelings when they didn't afford us any of the same treatment?l


I still remember the patch notes when the buff to Trail of Cinders was announced! They nerfed it saying that it wasn't intentional to buff it so much -.- seriously?
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So his video was 3min of his 40bil DH running around on MP5. And the skills he was using on MP5 were in general pretty crappy. For his level of gear needing to use Gloom on MP5 is tantamount to saying i have no idea how to play a DH. Not to mention he was using RF Bombardment and missing half the time.

Then he spent the next 9min talking about Archon wiz, Cm wiz and WOTB barbs.

Metatron you lied on your title post i really don't think that was a twitch stream about DH's. Or are we just supposed to be thankful that someone is running a stream with a DH LOL
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Demon Hunter dps is fine. I can solo MP10 ubers.

http://youtu.be/k380TVZcoLk
http://youtu.be/2BKsEfZIVRA
http://youtu.be/HcsXWGoywTM

Derp.
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Demon Hunter dps is fine. I can solo MP10 ubers.

http://youtu.be/k380TVZcoLk
http://youtu.be/2BKsEfZIVRA
http://youtu.be/HcsXWGoywTM

Derp.


I only hope that's sarcasm. Your DH's amazing, but 8 minutes/Uber Set is pretty bad compared to the other classes.

CM Freeze Wiz.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0All1GkKPJ4aLdHQ2V1doQnRJUm9OeHhBR3RMeTJWZ0E#gid=0

This is a utility build that can result in alright eDpS and they cleared it as fast, and in some cases faster then you.

barb
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8569389721?page=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGuJVgmalro&feature=youtu.be

He went over his gear and killed 2 uber sets in the time it took you too do 1. The sets were special built and on a relatively cheap budget compared to most barbs.

I'm not trying to talk down about your DH either, as I said, he's amazing and if he truly is 100% self found, that's insane. You've also done way better then I can do with my current gear, but unfortunately your videos only prove our point further. Yea the DH can survive MP10 just as well as the others, if not better with Gloom but when it comes to killing speed, we're atrocious in comparison.
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[quote] unfortunately your videos only prove our point further.


Mission accomplished!
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