Diablo® III

Archon's new video on DH's

great this thread made front page, brace yourselves for the incoming swarm of trolls, DH are fine, L2P, 2Beez, blah blah from other classes and the masochist DH's who faceroll mp50 with their 200k dps DH with Sharp Shooter.

I was hoping to keep this in the DH forums for some discussion but it seems the trollfest is about to begin, a decent discussion is impossibruuuuuuuuuu! lol!
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 6/25/2013 2:51 PM PDT
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It honestly looked like he was only watching the actual damage numbers, not how many times the numbers actually pop up or tick per sec.

Put it this way, imagine if Run Like the Wind didn't scale with attack speed anymore, and was set to a fixed amount of ticks with no proc.

Same thing with moves like Wicked Wind, fixed amount of ticks no attack speed scaling.

Watch the damage drop right in line.

It's pretty damn obvious what's out of wack. It's a combination of that in conjunction with skills and/or passives that can reproduce the same resource to spam them all over the screen. Barbs can just run all day with it at top speeds, etc.

Moves like Strafe or Rapid Fire would be in this same position if they were independent entities you could infinitely place all over the battlefield.

Once things get fixed, players are never going to be satisfied anyway. The new target would be Witch Doctors with Cloud of Bats and Grave Injustice or something.

-----

I mean, they could just as easily make Jagged Spikes scale with attack speed, too. Along with a proc to use with Mortal Enemy and/or Nightstalker, and watch what happens. It'd become the same exact thing.

Nether Tentacles got nerfed to only hit one time....
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/25/2013 2:56 PM PDT
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It honestly looked like he was only watching the actual damage numbers, not how many times the numbers actually pop up or tick per sec.

Put it this way, imagine if Run Like the Wind didn't scale with attack speed anymore, and was set to a fixed amount of ticks with no proc.

Same thing with moves like Wicked Wind, fixed amount of ticks no attack speed scaling.

Watch the damage drop right in line.

It's pretty damn obvious what's out of wack. It's a combination of that in conjunction with skills and/or passives that can reproduce the same resource to spam them all over the screen.

Moves like Strafe or Rapid Fire would be in this same position if they were independent entities you could infinitely place all over the battlefield.

Once things get fixed, players are never going to be satisfied anyway. The new target would be Witch Doctors with Cloud of Bats and Grave Injustice or something.

-----

I mean, they could just as easily make Jagged Spikes scale with attack speed, too. Along with a proc to use with Mortal Enemy and/or Nightstalker, and watch what happens. It'd become the same exact thing.

Nether Tentacles got nerfed to only hit one time....


yep, see blizz is all talk when it comes to everyone elses nerfs lol when it came to destroying ours that used similar mechanics it just happened they didnt need to say anything just pow there it is deal with it lol...meh i want buffs but its not the blizz way
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yep, see blizz is all talk when it comes to everyone elses nerfs lol when it came to destroying ours that used similar mechanics it just happened they didnt need to say anything just pow there it is deal with it lol...meh i want buffs but its not the blizz way


Well that's just the thing though... IF something like this happened for us then you can kiss build diversity for our class goodbye. Players are like sheep, following the next flavor, the greed of the playerbase doesn't want to be left "behind". Our class won't be as degenerative, though.

Wyatt already mentioned it before, that players just gravitate to moves that produce the most procs and passives that allow them to keep using those moves repeatedly.

The other classes barely have builds that function UNLESS.

That's why Demon Hunters are in a far better place than the others. It's just hard to see that, because the other classes are so broken and degenerative. This is why all of us keep coming right back to DHs.

There's obvious Demon Hunter improvements that need to be made though. Why does Sentry have a cooldown? Why are some Discipline skills so costly but their time shortened through nerf(Smokescreen)? What's the deal with Lightning Rod? etc.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/25/2013 3:12 PM PDT
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06/25/2013 02:52 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
I mean, they could just as easily make Jagged Spikes scale with attack speed, too. Along with a proc to use with Mortal Enemy and/or Nightstalker, and watch what happens. It'd become the same exact thing.


I wouldn't say anything about Night Stalker here, as it destroys the need of 2 resource...
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I used to play DH around patch 1.6. I have a para100 DH and had very nice gear for the moment. Around 300dps with good resist. I couldn’t do mp10 ubbers at that moment. I struggle at mp8 and 9 I sold all gear, bought barb gear with less than a half of my Dh gear. The result I can farm much faster and do mp10 really fast. So I hope they really fix DH, almost lvl 100 on my barb now, so I don’t want a nerf to barbs. Blizzard please fix DH!
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yep, see blizz is all talk when it comes to everyone elses nerfs lol when it came to destroying ours that used similar mechanics it just happened they didnt need to say anything just pow there it is deal with it lol...meh i want buffs but its not the blizz way


Well that's just the thing though... IF something like this happened for us then you can kiss build diversity for our class goodbye. Players are like sheep, following the next flavor, the greed of the playerbase doesn't want to be left "behind". Our class won't be as degenerative, though.

Wyatt already mentioned it before, that players just gravitate to moves that produce the most procs and passives that allow them to keep using those moves repeatedly.

The other classes barely have builds that function UNLESS.

That's why Demon Hunters are in a far better place than the others. It's just hard to see that, because the other classes are so broken and degenerative. This is why all of us keep coming right back to DHs.

There's obvious Demon Hunter improvements that need to be made though. Why does Sentry have a cooldown? Why are some Discipline skills so costly but their time shortened through nerf(Smokescreen)? What's the deal with Lightning Rod? etc.


well i agree, i dont want to break the game lol its boring i know i have a barb it gets old fast. But i do feel DH's should be unnerfed a tad. NT should hit more times, Caltrops should proc at least a VERY VERY small percent to allow for new builds and LOH uses. SS should have its 3 seconds returned but still have a cooldown so it cant be chain casted like the old days. Etc etc as for lightning rod... LOL! we have plenty of other skills that are so terrible that do need some loving its just i dont see blizz taking the initiative to help out and is going to rather focus on crushing everyone else lol
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06/25/2013 03:12 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
I mean, they could just as easily make Jagged Spikes scale with attack speed, too. Along with a proc to use with Mortal Enemy and/or Nightstalker, and watch what happens. It'd become the same exact thing.


I wouldn't say anything about Night Stalker here, as it destroys the need of 2 resource...


I think Nightstalker is fine. In that respect, Critical Mass isn't so bad either, in theory(the wizard skillset breakpoints literally break the passive, though).

Into the Fray on the other hand is out of wack, and so is Arcane Power on Crit. It's resources that reproduce themselves, there's absolutely no sacrifice, it's all reward, so there really isn't a choice. Especially for Barbs where their non fury spending attacks are so lackluster - which is funny how this turned around seeing as though fury spenders were pushed aside until crit chance gear + into the fray started making rounds.

It puts even more emphasis on crit chance exposing how much crit damage degenerates the game.

You can perm Shadow Power and have plenty of discipline skills through many different avenues of skills, passives, and gear. Players can use Legacy Nat's. Players can use Nightstalker. Players can stack max Discipline and Perfectionist. Players can use Bitter Pill and Suppression Fire, etc.

You see what I'm saying?

There isn't much choice with the other classes in my opinion, because some of their options are 'no brainers'. A skill can get nerfed in the DH set and people still keep playing the class because we didn't fall apart. Threaten to just screw with Thrive on Chaos and people talk about quitting the game.

Barbs had some neat stuff taken away, too. Like the "Devil's Anvil" build, if anyone remembers that.
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Well that's just the thing though... IF something like this happened for us then you can kiss build diversity for our class goodbye. Players are like sheep, following the next flavor, the greed of the playerbase doesn't want to be left "behind". Our class won't be as degenerative, though.

Wyatt already mentioned it before, that players just gravitate to moves that produce the most procs and passives that allow them to keep using those moves repeatedly.

The other classes barely have builds that function UNLESS.

That's why Demon Hunters are in a far better place than the others. It's just hard to see that, because the other classes are so broken and degenerative. This is why all of us keep coming right back to DHs.

There's obvious Demon Hunter improvements that need to be made though. Why does Sentry have a cooldown? Why are some Discipline skills so costly but their time shortened through nerf(Smokescreen)? What's the deal with Lightning Rod? etc.


well i agree, i dont want to break the game lol its boring i know i have a barb it gets old fast. But i do feel DH's should be unnerfed a tad. NT should hit more times, Caltrops should proc at least a VERY VERY small percent to allow for new builds and LOH uses. SS should have its 3 seconds returned but still have a cooldown so it cant be chain casted like the old days. Etc etc as for lightning rod... LOL! we have plenty of other skills that are so terrible that do need some loving its just i dont see blizz taking the initiative to help out and is going to rather focus on crushing everyone else lol


I have no idea what they're gonna do to be honest. Im more afraid that they're going to make this game rely on gear even more than it already does, and I despise that. <- I know that sounds counter intuitive, but I don't really know how to explain it.

One of the best things about us as a class as that we aren't as bound to gear as the other classes are. The game needs more of that. That's why the items are so boring because they're laying the foundation too, which makes zero sense.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/25/2013 3:38 PM PDT
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06/25/2013 02:52 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
t's pretty damn obvious what's out of wack. It's a combination of that in conjunction with skills and/or passives that can reproduce the same resource to spam them all over the screen. Barbs can just run all day with it at top speeds, etc.

What's obviously out of wack is the mob/elite attacks and crowd control spam, but no body wants to talk about that... certainly not the devs as that would lead to admission of guilt and/or incompetence and/or malicious intent.

If we just remove CM from the passive tree wizards are going to be brought back to where they were at release. Blizz/Hydra kiting. At 300k to 400k DPS Blizz/Hydra kiting is going to be vastly inferior to damn near everything else. One could add Disintegrate or Arcane Torrent or Ray of Frost to Blizz/Hydra and will not scale well with gear. If a player is constantly dodging, running, repositioning (aka Kiting) their DPS is going to suffer, which should be obvious. We only have CM builds because the gear supports it and Blizzard (the developers) designed an environment (and said gear) where it would function.

So can we discuss altering the environment (mob/elite attacks and CC spam) or buffing/modifying/improving spells and runes without nerfing some other class/builds/spells/runes?
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06/25/2013 03:34 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
There isn't much choice with the other classes in my opinion, because some of their options are 'no brainers'. A skill can get nerfed in the DH set and people still keep playing the class because we didn't fall apart. Threaten to just screw with Thrive on Chaos and people talk about quitting the game.


I run only 2 kind of build on my barb and wizard, they are +300% resource regen or 0 resource. So you either play without using any or use as much as you want as you can spam unlimited.
barb
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fhURkP!ZdY!aZZYcc
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#bSXRVT!ZXS!aZcaZb
wiz
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VQYXTk!fWg!YZcccc
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#mbYQTS!gfb!cccZcc
doc
I run zero dog + bats (1 build) if I got the gear (sold)
monk
I run combination strike + bell as it output the most damage combined.

Hunter I play different build for different mp, so I got 5-6 different builds here. One class to cover them all.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 6/25/2013 4:03 PM PDT
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06/25/2013 03:45 PMPosted by BossDogg
t's pretty damn obvious what's out of wack. It's a combination of that in conjunction with skills and/or passives that can reproduce the same resource to spam them all over the screen. Barbs can just run all day with it at top speeds, etc.

What's obviously out of wack is the mob/elite attacks and crowd control spam, but no body wants to talk about that... certainly not the devs as that would lead to admission of guilt and/or incompetence and/or malicious intent.

If we just remove CM from the passive tree wizards are going to be brought back to where they were at release. Blizz/Hydra kiting. At 300k to 400k DPS Blizz/Hydra kiting is going to be vastly inferior to damn near everything else. One could add Disintegrate or Arcane Torrent or Ray of Frost to Blizz/Hydra and will not scale well with gear. If a player is constantly dodging, running, repositioning (aka Kiting) their DPS is going to suffer, which should be obvious. We only have CM builds because the gear supports it and Blizzard (the developers) designed an environment (and said gear) where it would function.

So can we discuss altering the environment (mob/elite attacks and CC spam) or buffing/modifying/improving spells and runes without nerfing some other class/builds/spells/runes?


That's another can of worms.

Let's not forget that the game already pushes players in one dimension via the way the game rewards the player.

Right now, even with changes to the class, most players are still going to gloom tank up and play close range because it's the path of least resistance to them.

Playing at a distance and trying not to get hit, for us is just tied to intrinsic motivation. Most people don't seem to play for intrinsic rewards.

The game has narrow rewards. I discussed this in another thread, if D3 actually had more rewards for actually accomplishing different feats of gameplay besides the initial achievement points, then people would diversify themselves regardless of how overpowered or underpowered some skills/passives/gear are.
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What's obviously out of wack is the mob/elite attacks and crowd control spam, but no body wants to talk about that... certainly not the devs as that would lead to admission of guilt and/or incompetence and/or malicious intent.

If we just remove CM from the passive tree wizards are going to be brought back to where they were at release. Blizz/Hydra kiting. At 300k to 400k DPS Blizz/Hydra kiting is going to be vastly inferior to damn near everything else. One could add Disintegrate or Arcane Torrent or Ray of Frost to Blizz/Hydra and will not scale well with gear. If a player is constantly dodging, running, repositioning (aka Kiting) their DPS is going to suffer, which should be obvious. We only have CM builds because the gear supports it and Blizzard (the developers) designed an environment (and said gear) where it would function.

So can we discuss altering the environment (mob/elite attacks and CC spam) or buffing/modifying/improving spells and runes without nerfing some other class/builds/spells/runes?


That's another can of worms.

Let's not forget that the game already pushes players in one dimension via the way the game rewards the player.

Right now, even with changes to the class, most players are still going to gloom tank up and play close range because it's the path of least resistance to them.

Playing at a distance and trying not to get hit, for us is just tied to intrinsic motivation. Most people don't seem to play for intrinsic rewards.

The game has narrow rewards. I discussed this in another thread, if D3 actually had more rewards for actually accomplishing different feats of gameplay besides the initial achievement points, then people would diversify themselves regardless of how overpowered or underpowered some skills/passives/gear are.


I wish we had some kind of proficiency points for playing a certain way and using skills a certain way that slowly improves the skills. so you gain progress and you can make otherwise harder gameplay styles rewarding with better efficiency with said style.

Say you like killing at range so you lvl up range kills that boost your dmg at range as it levels. Or you love to slow enemies with caltrops as you level that your slow % increases etc etc.

That would add a huge new level of depth and progression and people would eventually want to try all skills and styles in order to build the ultimate character.

Borderlands 2 has something kind of like this with Badass Points that you get from doing certain things that let you enhance your character subtly but it adds up in the long run. Wish this gme had something similar for each class.

Meh its a pipe dream tho lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 6/25/2013 4:10 PM PDT
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The game has narrow rewards. I discussed this in another thread, if D3 actually had more rewards for actually accomplishing different feats of gameplay besides the initial achievement points, then people would diversify themselves regardless of how overpowered or underpowered some skills/passives/gear are.


Steady Aim is one such reward. Sadly, many DHs think it's a trash passive, and some even ridicule those that use it, because they're just to lazy to work for it.

Wyatt touched on this very aspect of game design in Archon's stream, however, he used the Brawler Passive in his example instead of SA. This was really encouraging to hear and one of the reasons why I'm optimistic about the future of our class and D3 as a whole.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 6/25/2013 4:55 PM PDT
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I think Nightstalker is fine. In that respect, Critical Mass isn't so bad either, in theory(the wizard skillset breakpoints literally break the passive, though).

Into the Fray on the other hand is out of wack, and so is Arcane Power on Crit. It's resources that reproduce themselves, there's absolutely no sacrifice, it's all reward, so there really isn't a choice. Especially for Barbs where their non fury spending attacks are so lackluster - which is funny how this turned around seeing as though fury spenders were pushed aside until crit chance gear + into the fray started making rounds.

It puts even more emphasis on crit chance exposing how much crit damage degenerates the game.

You can perm Shadow Power and have plenty of discipline skills through many different avenues of skills, passives, and gear. Players can use Legacy Nat's. Players can use Nightstalker. Players can stack max Discipline and Perfectionist. Players can use Bitter Pill and Suppression Fire, etc.

You see what I'm saying?

There isn't much choice with the other classes in my opinion, because some of their options are 'no brainers'. A skill can get nerfed in the DH set and people still keep playing the class because we didn't fall apart. Threaten to just screw with Thrive on Chaos and people talk about quitting the game.

Barbs had some neat stuff taken away, too. Like the "Devil's Anvil" build, if anyone remembers that.


I don't mean to come across as overly aggressive, but can you elaborate and provide details to back up your claims about:
- "the wizard skillset breakpoints literally break the (CM) passive"
- "...is out of wack, and so is Arcane Power on Crit. It's resources that reproduce themselves, there's absolutely no sacrifice, it's all reward, so there really isn't a choice."

Without arcane on crit (along with CC and attack speed) certain Wiz builds don't exist. While you are right that the Wiz class is extremely gear dependent, Wiz attack speed break points do not break the CM passive. Attack speed break points don't fuel or interact with CM.

CM is only triggered by a crit. If one get 2 crits every sec or 200 crits per second, CM will process each crit. and cool down reduction is not guaranteed. Proc. coefficients govern when cool down reduction happens and it could take several crits for CM to fully wipe a cool down. If you are indirectly saying CM is being triggered too often then you are talking about Crit percentage and/or attack speed and attack speed has already been cut in half. A crit percentage or attack speed nerf would hit all classes not just wizards.

Crit fuels APoC, but that is what it was designed to do. It makes regaining resources a gear dependency. Also, the paltry resource gain by the 4 piece Tal Rasha set is exactly that paltry/miniscule. The 4 piece Tal set bonus is mostly sought after by Wizards playing the Raining Meteors build. Even with 4 piece Tal's one still needs 3 APoC sources and potentially Familiar/Arcanot. You will not see a wizard going "I need that 2 piece Tal set bonus for my Disintegrate build."
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@Metatron:
What you are describing is exactly how the skill runes in Path of Exile work. You level up a skill rune and it gives you more damage, etc. Skill runes are tradeable in PoE. I know PoE can be a dirty word in Blizz/D3 forums but you just expressed a desire that is satisfied by another game's design. I also would have liked a feature like what PoE offers, but in D3.

Somebody mentioned one dimensional style of play...

06/25/2013 04:17 PMPosted by RedCell
Steady Aim is one such reward. Sadly, many DHs think it's a trash passive, and some even ridicule those that use it, because they're just to lazy to work for it.

Red you are making a claim, but I don't think it is obvious what you are referring to. I certainly do not see how Steady Aim the skill is a reward. A bonus to damage when at a certain distance or greater from a targeted enemy is thoroughly negated by mob/elite attack mechanics. Frogs/Lepers in Act 1 weeping Hallow and Fields of Misery negate any distance from them that your character has. Teleporting elites negate player distance and nullify kiting maneuvers. Sorry man but I don't understand. Please explain.
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The game has narrow rewards. I discussed this in another thread, if D3 actually had more rewards for actually accomplishing different feats of gameplay besides the initial achievement points, then people would diversify themselves regardless of how overpowered or underpowered some skills/passives/gear are.


Steady Aim is one such reward. Sadly, many DHs think it's a trash passive, and some even ridicule those that use it, because they're just to lazy to work for it.

Wyatt touched on this very aspect of game design in Archon's stream, however, he used the Brawler Passive in his example instead of SA. This was really encouraging to hear and one of the reasons why I'm optimistic about the future of our class and D3 as a whole.


Steady Aim just adds to the same dimension. Many are snapshotting it right now anyway, which is cool, though.

What if Steady Aim had chances to drop globes.

I think Nightstalker is fine. In that respect, Critical Mass isn't so bad either, in theory(the wizard skillset breakpoints literally break the passive, though).

Into the Fray on the other hand is out of wack, and so is Arcane Power on Crit. It's resources that reproduce themselves, there's absolutely no sacrifice, it's all reward, so there really isn't a choice. Especially for Barbs where their non fury spending attacks are so lackluster - which is funny how this turned around seeing as though fury spenders were pushed aside until crit chance gear + into the fray started making rounds.

It puts even more emphasis on crit chance exposing how much crit damage degenerates the game.

You can perm Shadow Power and have plenty of discipline skills through many different avenues of skills, passives, and gear. Players can use Legacy Nat's. Players can use Nightstalker. Players can stack max Discipline and Perfectionist. Players can use Bitter Pill and Suppression Fire, etc.

You see what I'm saying?

There isn't much choice with the other classes in my opinion, because some of their options are 'no brainers'. A skill can get nerfed in the DH set and people still keep playing the class because we didn't fall apart. Threaten to just screw with Thrive on Chaos and people talk about quitting the game.

Barbs had some neat stuff taken away, too. Like the "Devil's Anvil" build, if anyone remembers that.


I don't mean to come across as overly aggressive, but can you elaborate and provide details to back up your claims about:
- "the wizard skillset breakpoints literally break the (CM) passive"
- "...is out of wack, and so is Arcane Power on Crit. It's resources that reproduce themselves, there's absolutely no sacrifice, it's all reward, so there really isn't a choice."


I obviously don't have nearly as much Wiz exp as you do, basically none at all. All I can do is answer this in a form of questions.

Why can't you use increased max Arcane Power items as an alternative?

Why is Astral Presence not an option?

Why is Prodigy not used?

You get what I'm saying? Arcane Power on Crit seems like it's so good as to remove choice. It just seems like you guys don't have any options, and the options you do have are degenerate and ignores majority of the actual game's depth of gameplay.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 6/25/2013 4:54 PM PDT
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@BossDogg

I feel rewarded when I use gear, such as cold SoJ, and skills like Shadow Glide in tandem to maintain that separation while engaging elite frogs etc.

Archery, on the other hand, doesn't have a reward, because a reward is earned and the benefit from Archery isn't earned, it's just there.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 6/25/2013 5:46 PM PDT
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06/25/2013 05:00 PMPosted by RedCell
I feel rewarded when I use gear, such as cold SoJ, and skills like Shadow Glide in tandem to maintain that separation while engaging elite frogs etc.

You aren't going to maintain separation except in split second intervals. Its another way of saying kiting, but not very effectively. Some people like this play style and I say more power to them. However, I think it would be absolutely horrible to force that game play style on everyone.

Why can't you use increased max Arcane Power items as an alternative?
Why is Astral Presence not an option?
Why is Prodigy not used?
You get what I'm saying? Arcane Power on Crit seems like it's so good as to remove choice. It just seems like you guys don't have any options, and the options you do have are degenerate and ignores majority of the actual game's depth of gameplay.


In-game elite mob/attack mechanics necessitate a response. The most efficient/effective response is to completely halt their attack/cc spam and deliver an attack of your own (because wizards are squishy). Otherwise it is a matter of time before one meets death. In order to halt their attacks/cc spam and deliver your attack, a stream of frost novas are needed. If the monsters didn't pose such a huge thread and didn't have unlimited resources to fuel their attacks, then other options would be equal or of a greater efficiency/effectiveness.

In addition to the above the resource cost is pretty high for Wizard spells. So not having arcane power to cast spells is almost the same as dropping one's sword in the middle of an intense samurai sword fight. No one is going to knowingly disarm themselves.

Prodigy use is lower than other passives because it is tied to signature spells. Signature spells are either low damage, non-AoE, or are low AoE damage spells. Lower damage = kill slower. However, some builds use CM and Shock Pulse/Living Lightning (a signature spell) for the express purpose of wiping cool downs through CM procs (see the Hybrid Archon build). Other builds like the LL/Meteor Shower/Prodigy Low MP farming build uses LL/Prodigy to fuel the resource hungry meteor spell.

Astral Presence's resource regen per second is as paltry as the 4 piece Tal Rasha set bonus. 2 AP per second is nothing when one can empty their resource globe in 2-3 casts (ex meteor 50 AP per cast, wicked wind 35 AP per Cast, Blizzard 40 AP per cast).

It becomes a no-brainer when one can stack 30 APoC with 3 sources of APoC. What really makes CM/WW/APoC look OP is when a single spell cast can crit multiple targets and thus trigger CM and APoC. There is a synergy. Demon Hunter's have Ball Lightning that does what Wicked Wind does; crit multiple targets in a single cast.

Blizzard designed gear dependencies into the Wizard class. "Unfair" would be a mild, kit-gloves way of describing punishing players who learn to make use of gear that satisfies developer designed dependencies.
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I feel rewarded when I use gear, such as cold SoJ, and skills like Shadow Glide in tandem to maintain that separation while engaging elite frogs etc.

You aren't going to maintain separation except in split second intervals. Its another way of saying kiting, but not very effectively. Some people like this play style and I say more power to them. However, I think it would be absolutely horrible to force that game play style on everyone.

Why can't you use increased max Arcane Power items as an alternative?
Why is Astral Presence not an option?
Why is Prodigy not used?
You get what I'm saying? Arcane Power on Crit seems like it's so good as to remove choice. It just seems like you guys don't have any options, and the options you do have are degenerate and ignores majority of the actual game's depth of gameplay.


In-game elite mob/attack mechanics necessitate a response. The most efficient/effective response is to completely halt their attack/cc spam and deliver an attack of your own (because wizards are squishy). Otherwise it is a matter of time before one meets death. In order to halt their attacks/cc spam and deliver your attack, a stream of frost novas are needed. If the monsters didn't pose such a huge thread and didn't have unlimited resources to fuel their attacks, then other options would be equal or of a greater efficiency/effectiveness.

In addition to the above the resource cost is pretty high for Wizard spells. So not having arcane power to cast spells is almost the same as dropping one's sword in the middle of an intense samurai sword fight. No one is going to knowingly disarm themselves.

Prodigy use is lower than other passives because it is tied to signature spells. Signature spells are either low damage, non-AoE, or are low AoE damage spells. Lower damage = kill slower. However, some builds use CM and Shock Pulse/Living Lightning (a signature spell) for the express purpose of wiping cool downs through CM procs (see the Hybrid Archon build). Other builds like the LL/Meteor Shower/Prodigy Low MP farming build uses LL/Prodigy to fuel the resource hungry meteor spell.

Astral Presence's resource regen per second is as paltry as the 4 piece Tal Rasha set bonus. 2 AP per second is nothing when one can empty their resource globe in 2-3 casts (ex meteor 50 AP per cast, wicked wind 35 AP per Cast, Blizzard 40 AP per cast).

It becomes a no-brainer when one can stack 30 APoC with 3 sources of APoC. What really makes CM/WW/APoC look OP is when a single spell cast can crit multiple targets and thus trigger CM and APoC. There is a synergy. Demon Hunter's have Ball Lightning that does what Wicked Wind does; crit multiple targets in a single cast.

Blizzard designed gear dependencies into the Wizard class. "Unfair" would be a mild, kit-gloves way of describing punishing players who learn to make use of gear that satisfies developer designed dependencies.


So wheres our version of CMWiz that breaks the game? We did have caltrops back in the days that worked basically the same way and it got removed. See i think you completely missed his point, his point is thats how POWERFUL APOC with Critical Mass is, that all your other arcane generation options are useless in comparison.Its so powerful that you can literally use spenders to generate more spenders which create a feedback loop of infinite use. This is the same problem with barbs and into the fray. I think this is what blizzard sees and is the reasoning behind why they will tone it down and buff the other skills to compete with APOC etc in order to provide more options which is what ActionKungfu was getting at.

If all your skills could do the same then the game is super easy mode lol thats too powerful and i dont see blizzard buffing everything else up to that level. What i see them doing is where Monks are. You buff some skills but they come with sacrifice yet it opens up more options. DH's have all the options but no incentive since they are still weak they just need some tweaks and slight buffs to be about the same level as Monks where i believe every class should be.

I think Blizz sees this and hopefully will follow that approach but something tells me they will just over nerf things on Barbs and Wiz and not address the fundamental DH issues and just make things worse lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 6/25/2013 6:39 PM PDT
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