Diablo® III

Hatred X Discipline and Optimizing eDPS

Choking Gas and Trail of Cinders proc Mortal Enemy :)

Jagged Spikes does not. :(


Thank you. But the aoe on those skill are too small for me too see. And I don't think anyone will use Trail of Cinder to run in and out just to regain Hatred.
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Choking Gas and Trail of Cinders proc Mortal Enemy :)

Jagged Spikes does not. :(


Last time, it was proc'ing it too. It was too epic that time that Tank Builds that has Caltrops as their main source of almost everything was up.. Sadly.. they removed the coeff ALTOGETHER. Made it 0. Lol.

Choking Gas and Trail of Cinders proc Mortal Enemy :)

Jagged Spikes does not. :(


Thank you. But the aoe on those skill are too small for me too see. And I don't think anyone will use Trail of Cinder to run in and out just to regain Hatred.


Not just anyone.. ;) With the built I've given you, the surplus Disc I'm getting with many mobs, ToC can also be used to boost the Hatred regen.. Another flexibility of the build.
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 6/25/2013 9:15 PM PDT
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Choking Gas and Trail of Cinders proc Mortal Enemy :)

Jagged Spikes does not. :(


Thank you. But the aoe on those skill are too small for me too see. And I don't think anyone will use Trail of Cinder to run in and out just to regain Hatred.


The solution might be Action Shot. Too bad you can't control where the arrows go.
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Thank you. But the aoe on those skill are too small for me too see. And I don't think anyone will use Trail of Cinder to run in and out just to regain Hatred.


The solution might be Action Shot. Too bad you can't control where the arrows go.


Action shot can crit and CAN proc Nightstalker, but it will surely proc ME if it'll hit the marked mob. Haha. Goodluck with that though since it chooses it's own target not unless there's just 1 enemy.
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The 30% reduction in melee is meaningless after you top your defense, for example

80% reduction from armor and res is (1-.80)(1-.80) = 4% damage (96% reduction)
80% +30% is (1-.80)(1-.80)(1-.30) = 2.8% damage (97.2% reduction)
only differ by 1.2%
70% reduction (1-.70)(1-.70) = 9% (91% reduction)
with -30% (1-.70)(1-.70)(1-.30) = 6.3% (93.7% reduction)
differ by 2.7% so at end mit gear you see very little difference between class, if you are only stacking armor and resistance.


Still, you are taking 30% less damage. There is not really a dimishing return.

With 96% damage reduction you are taking 4% damage, with 97.2 reduction you are taking 2.8% damage. That is still exactly 30% less damage taken.
Just think about it from that side: without the 30% you are taking 4% damage from a hit. Now apply the 30% on top of it (4% - 30% = 2.8%), you will now only suffer 2.8% of incoming damage.

Just saying :-)
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So does action shot hit 3 or 4 targets?

I can't remember and too lazy to open up the game to test, I know it proc ME. But really NS as well? might need to go back and play with these skills.
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The 30% reduction in melee is meaningless after you top your defense, for example

80% reduction from armor and res is (1-.80)(1-.80) = 4% damage (96% reduction)
80% +30% is (1-.80)(1-.80)(1-.30) = 2.8% damage (97.2% reduction)
only differ by 1.2%
70% reduction (1-.70)(1-.70) = 9% (91% reduction)
with -30% (1-.70)(1-.70)(1-.30) = 6.3% (93.7% reduction)
differ by 2.7% so at end mit gear you see very little difference between class, if you are only stacking armor and resistance.


Still, you are taking 30% less damage. There is not really a dimishing return.

With 96% damage reduction you are taking 4% damage, with 97.2 reduction you are taking 2.8% damage. That is still exactly 30% less damage taken.
Just think about it from that side: without the 30% you are taking 4% damage from a hit. Now apply the 30% on top of it (4% - 30% = 2.8%), you will now only suffer 2.8% of incoming damage.

Just saying :-)


LOL

lets say the mobs can deal 25,000 so
4.0% is 1000 damage
2.8% is 700 damage
the difference is 30% but the amount of life you lose is so small it doesn't matter.
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You read my post wrong...

I never asked for something from another class.


lol, I don't think I did, btw you are reading my post wrong. The comment at the end is not referring to your post. It's a general comment.
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It's all good
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lets say the mobs can deal 25,000 so
4.0% is 1000 damage
2.8% is 700 damage
the difference is 30% but the amount of life you lose is so small it doesn't matter.


As long as there is only one mob pounding you :-)
If there are 20 of them, it becomes a different story :-)

(I'm not too serious about it, just wanted to point out that the 30% will stay 30% independent on gear level)
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Shiimiish,
I understand how the mechanics works, I just don't like to see people talk about this reduction when a melee class has 30% higher chance to be hit by the 20 mobs you talk about. That is the reason why they have 30% reduction as they take a bit higher chance. Overall, I never said 30% is removed, but the amount is small so we should not compare.
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As I said, I'm not too serious or trying to nitpick :-)

Anyway, this I would like to pick up upon and come back to the original topic of the thread (and hopefully contribute something to it):

Shiimiish,
I understand how the mechanics works, I just don't like to see people talk about this reduction when a melee class has 30% higher chance to be hit by the 20 mobs you talk about. That is the reason why they have 30% reduction as they take a bit higher chance. Overall, I never said 30% is removed, but the amount is small so we should not compare.


As I understand many of the gripes around the DH class (which is also a gripe of myself) is, that our most effective way of applying DPS is being in melee range and facetanking. I do have the feeling (and this is my personal opinion, not to be stated as fact) that whenever I play a mobile build it is lacking in getting DPS delivered compard to a tanking build. And I guess there are a lot of players feeling that way, hence the 30% are being brought up again and again. Because players feel they are no less tanking than the melee classes.

So for me it is about incentivice the non tanking playstyle and not further encouraging it. We don't need the 30% or at least we shouldn't need it.

I think the double ressource system is somehow tied to the problems of DH, but after thinking about it for some time, I can't quite put my finger on it. There are certainly sufficient possibilities to regenerate ressources, be it hatred or discipline. What I think is lacking, is our ability of converting ressources into damage at the correct pacing. We do have low hatred consuming attacks like EA/LB that do allow us to consume hatred at a pace that can be easiliy replenished. But they are doing somewhat lackluster damage. Then we have attacks like cluster arrow that do up to 304% damage in a burst, but we can only spam 2 of them with our standard ressource pool. After that it takes time to replenish ressources.
Some of our talents point into the direction that we should be a bursty class (think Sharpshooter), but our ressource management system does not really support the bursty playstyle. Or in other words the time between our damage bursts is too long.
Well, I'm more less just putting down some thoughts on the fly. But that's what I come up with. For sustained damage our ressource generation is fine, but the damage we put out is too low. For burst we could do high enough damage, but ressource regeneration does not keep up fast enough.
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And we also lack an easy way to regenerate TWO of our Resource Pool.

If they'll make it just 1 RESOURCE pool.. Then we might not even have much problem.

Imagine Hatred-Discipline is changed into 1, something like.. Massacre or whatnot..

And all skills relating to resource generation was reworded.. We'd pawn easier.

ME, Nighstalker, Vengeance.. etc. all only restoring the single Resource pool? We'd be on an easier foot.


Post from some other Thread I made.. If they'll do this.. it'll be "easy" mode for us.
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Shiimiish,
I'm playing with builds that do not use dh's primary and secondary attacks.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#PQgYXV!TbU!cZcbcc
^full post http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9309031819

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#jSglTV!YbX!bZZabZ

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#QkgRlh!UcX!abYYca

Try them and see if you like them. Playing with 2 resource and time when you will be using each, and how much you use while moving around the battle field.

Chrizzle,
You are joking right?

I have no idea how I will be playing once they remove one of the 2 resource, and I don't want to see it happening. But if we only have 1 I guess it will be Hatred and the regeneration rate will be 6.50% as you add up (1/30+1/125=6.53%) which will be about 8 Hatred per second.

other than that it will be so boring everyone will be running the same build like what barb, monk, wiz are doing over there.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 6/26/2013 12:04 AM PDT
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I do play a somewhat similar build to your last one, Kirus. I have HA/SoT in there instead of RoV and I have Smokescreen instead of the bat. I might give your variant a shot, it looks interesting.

I was tinkering with the idea of a MS/Strafe build as well, but tbh right now I'm having too much fun with my built that relies mainly on traps for damage. The traps allow me to apply damage quickly, bursty and spot on target which is really tasty :-)

I also wouldn't want to see our ressources unified. I think it is a very distinct feature of the DH to have one ressource devoted (mainly) to defense and another devoted (mainly) to offense. It's part of the fun to manage these two seperately.
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Chrizzle,
You are joking right?

I have no idea how I will be playing once they remove one of the 2 resource, and I don't want to see it happening. But if we only have 1 I guess it will be Hatred and the regeneration rate will be 6.50% as you add up (1/30+1/125=6.53%) which will be about 8 Hatred per second.

other than that it will be so boring everyone will be running the same build like what barb, monk, wiz are doing over there.


Nope, not joking.. What I mean on that is that.. they could pretty much make that SINGLE resource to me at 150 max, example name it Massacre.

Then.. ANY resource generating skills we have, may it be Hatred or Discipline will be reworded and will grant you that single resource only.

So skills like Shadow Power will cost 14 Massacre. Spike Trap will cost 50 Massacre and so on.

Them being combined will have pros and cons though.. and the more i'll explain it, the more it'll look as a bad idea ;)

But it WILL make our life easier in some sense.

06/26/2013 12:10 AMPosted by Shiimiish
I also wouldn't want to see our ressources unified. I think it is a very distinct feature of the DH to have one ressource devoted (mainly) to defense and another devoted (mainly) to offense. It's part of the fun to manage these two seperately.


Exactly. The reason we can diversify this much is because we have 2 Resource Pools.. But if they do combine the two, change some costs in skills and so on.. it MAY work better for us..

But DH being better? That's something that I'll look forward too.. All we've been getting are nerfs and band-aid fixes :))
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 6/26/2013 12:55 AM PDT
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I manage my resources just fine, my skills/attacks just need to do more damage.

If my attacks did more damage I wouldn't need more resources at all. If my Spiketraps or Cluster Arrow did a 1/3 more damage I would finish the fight in 2/3 of the time and I would need 1/3 less Hatred.

If my attacks did 1/3 more damage the fight would end 1/3 faster and I would need 1/3 less Discipline for Shadow Power. If I used 1/3 less discipline for Shadow Power I could use 1/3 more Discipline for other skills or I could possibly use a Passive other than Night Stalker.

We don't need a redesign or all these complicated combinations of skills to achieve some form of balance. We just need our skills to do more damage.
Edited by Slay#1754 on 6/26/2013 7:17 AM PDT
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[quote]
Talking about tanking, I can tank MP10 uber (except for the butterflies) with 4100armor/220allres and 35k Life when I have my perma Gloom. Tanking is boring, please don't tell me you are enjoying it.

After you hit 4400/440 stop adding armor and resistance, get more VIT if you would like to be tougher. the amount armor and resistance does not improve your eHP by much.

Discipline and Hatred is not a problem I'm having. I did not write up this thread to complain how bad I'm doing. I'm tired of using the same skills to refill my resource, the suggestions I have listed should have been made more than a couple month ago, especially 2 and 4.


I understood that you didn't write to complain about, I just wanted for you to see that I'm using different skills than you are and also I still have disc and hatred. If you are tired of using the same skills as resources then change your gameplay to see if you will get used to different skills.
I've tried all skills before I got to this build, and it's the most effective that fit my needs.
You can think tanking is boring, I really don't think it is and butterflies are not a problem to me.
Other build I like a lot is strafe on mp10. I never run out of disc either since you can stand your CC over 65% and hatred regeneration is normal but of course you'll have to use punshiment rune to help sometimes. But it's kind of a whirlwind Barb. It's cool to play for sometime but then it'll get boring too, since you can kill huge pack of monsters only doing the back and forth thing (except elites).
And right now I got all my 10 chars level 60 and what I'm going to do is to have one different than the other one, not using same skills or weapons, for example, I don't like manticores or windforces, but with my second Dh I have 4 options to choose from instead of calamity. Melee DH, Windforce, Manticore or dual wield. And I know I'd have to use different skills than I'm using right now with my main DH. That wouldn't be boring, trying to get different skills to work as good as my first DH being effective, not running out of disc or hatred.
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Buff the Nyan~
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