Diablo® III

Analysis of the DH class: Buffs, etc.

This is my analysis of the DH class and how measures can be taken to allow DH's the same level of "exploity" mechanics like Archon has mentioned in his video.

Contrary to popular belief it has nothing to do with hatred generation. In fact I'd go as far as to say that hatred generation with DH is currently fine as it is. It's possible for DH's to hit upwards of 15 hatred regeneration if they gear in that manner, yes, it does reduce sheet dps (which most DH's don't want to give up) but it solve some of the hatred issues that most people raise.

However, my analysis is delving into discipline generation and discipline spenders and I feel that Blizz has taken a really bad approach in balancing the DH class.

For one, discipline has one problem in that it is only used for Gloom (and occasionally vault). It could be due to that Gloom is too overpowered a skill that it's the only discipline skill that you need to spam, or it could be that Gloom is the only viable discipline spender given the current state of discipline generation.(discipline generation is too low).

Nightstalker as it is is actually pretty fine but it does need a small buff. I don't exactly know % chance nightstalker has to proc. But I would say that it needs to proc about 75-100% more.

Discipline shouldn't be viewed just solely as a "defensive resource". Players should be given the option to utilize it offensively allowing more variations in playstyles. Skill's like Preparation:Punishment have the right idea in mind, but have really poor execution.

However, doing this would mean reversing a good deal of skill that blizzard has nerfed over the duration of the game.

For one the trail of cinders nerf should be reversed. ToC should deal at least 500-700% damage.

Jagged spikes should be given a proc rate of 0.1.

Smoke Screen Choking gas should have an AOE increase to about 10 yards-15 yards.

Will add in more as I keep testing.

My DH is currently doing MP10 fields and does just fine. (though the lag is sometimes annoying)
Edited by Uberjager#6563 on 6/25/2013 7:45 PM PDT
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Hatred regen is fine for rapid fire. Running out of hatred was a common occurrence back during the bola / eb built. Strafe to an extend will have that issue even with vengeance. Most people try to run as much hatred regen / pur as possible when running strafe.

DH needs more than resource regeneration. There needs to be a significant increase in dmg / resource spent. Furthermore, we need more synergies among our skills and proper dmg multipliers.
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06/25/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Uberjager
For one, discipline has one problem in that it is only used for Gloom (and occasionally vault). It could be due to that Gloom is too overpowered


Let me shed some light on this.

-Gloom is absolutely a must ( in barb terms its eHP sustain) There are no gear options and thus SP is our only choice. LoH plus 3 % LS works only on skills like grenades / cinder arrow / ES - shock colar / bounty hunter = 1/10 DPS verus SP plus dps gear/skills.
-Gloom for Tank DH consumes 90 percent of the Discipline pool and regen rate. Why ? Cause it last only 5 seconds so it must be recasted every 4.5seconds. Thus leaving zero discipline for nothing else. But realisticaly there is not need to do anything else.

Short short fix is increase discipline regen = bad idea because DH should have fast Hatred and slow discipline regen.. class balance.

Short sighted fix #2 - make shadow power last longer like 120 seconds . Just like Mantra's / energy armor / war cry etc.. = more discipline for other uses like caltrop / vault / smoke screen etc .. But 15% life steal for 120 seconds is sooo obviously OP even the DH community does not want it.

My suggestion on this subject in many threads :

Shadow power should be more like:

- Mantras. ie: last 120 seconds but the 15% LS last only the first 3 to 5 seconds. The DEVs can fine tune it. What this will do is open up the other SP runes. Imagine 120 seconds of night bane for extra hatred regen, imagine 120 seconds of Glide to finally move faster than the MS cap, imagine Gloom as 120 second defensive buff just like all other purely defensive buffs in other classes.. You will have choices.

or

- Crit procs to extend Shadow Power or cancel the count down of shadow power if you are below 100% health etc.. Reduce the need to recast to scale with mobs on screen. More mobs means you need it up so allow to stay up. Think battle rage plus WoTB, Monk's cycle resets to 7 seconds every time monk hits something, Wiz can reduce cool of much needed skill because the mobs are not dead yet..

This a pipe dream wish list so hold of the flaming and humor me .. ^_^
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 6/25/2013 9:08 PM PDT
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The hardest part to understand about veteran DH players is this:

if given the choice to have Shadow power be just like perma-WoTB in WW barb.. most would turn it down. They would prefer to manage it skill/timing/gear optimization etc ..

The big picture is this.. when we ask for buffs we forget who it will effect. HC players to self found players. For the most part we just want improve our build or drop a couple 100 mil and create a working build and off we go.. but consider that D3 is a grind game. To start out lowly and slowly and hopefully increase gear gain for upgrades. Buffs and Nerfs need to reflect this as well.

I remember the SLTW LoH proc rate reduction. It didn't effect the topend gear barbs one bit .. but the little guys like the budget barbs took the hardest hit from that.. so that nerf served no purpose.

Remember the journey. Getting the easy way just means you quit play D3 quicker.
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I am certainly no veteran and I'm far from a rich player. But I would also vastly prefer to keep SP as a short time buff that needs to be managed.
I do like the way of DH playstyle that we have (in theory) a big arsenal of stuff that is always available for a short time. It gives us (again in theory) alwys the right answer for whatever we encounter. I would like to preserve this basic idea. I would also like to preserve the double ressource system with the basic idea of hatred=offense and discipline=defense.

On of the main issues I have is that SP is too good. It is not too good in comparison to what other classes have up their sleeves, but it is too good in comparison to the rest what is given to us. So almost every DH feels forced to use SP.
With SP in our arsenal it becomes actually quite easy to facetank. So a lot of the succesful builds revolve around the cornerstones of surviving with SP, generating enough discipline to keep it up and dealing sufficient damage that the 15% LL of SP keeps us alive. This is effective - but boring.

I think most people wouldn't doubt that RF does good damage, even compared to other classes. But it can only do so because it is one of the three cornerstones I pointed out above.

What we would need is an increase in eDPS when we are not facetanking. That's where I see the problem. We have a great arsenal of doing damage, we have a great arsenal of staying alive and we have a great arsenal for mobility. But these three aspects do not mesh together too well (this is my personal opinion, I don't want to have it stated as fact).
I would like to see some mechanism that picks up the mobility given to the DH and expands on it. I would gladly trade away some of the power of SP if we get our ability increased to apply DPS while moving.

E: fixed the typos I could find.
Edited by Shiimiish#2825 on 6/25/2013 9:48 PM PDT
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06/25/2013 09:45 PMPosted by Shiimiish
On of the main issues I have is that SP is too good. It is not too good in comparison to what other classes have up their sleeves, but it is too good in comparison to the rest what is given to us. So almost every DH feels forced to use SP.


Playing hard core die 6 times relying on SP. I have ask paragon 70 plus players how they stay alive? No shadow power. Good enough. Now I have to find a that is better and more reliable. I know it's a different beast in HC. I can ask directly but I wanted to figure it out myself on this one. No shadow power and yet better survive in HC..

There is hope for SC no shadow power as well.. let's hope.
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I kept on telling people about this,
"Discipline is for you tactical (hunting) and defensive abilities,"
this is stated in the game guide you can read online.

If you are not using your Discipline to hunt, you are not playing a demon hunter.

All defensive abilities are used to improve you edps, because you will kite away less when you active them. Torturous Ground, Jagged Spikes, Bait the Trap will slow and stop mobs before they get to you by rooting, dealing damage, or by increasing your chance to deal more damage. Smoke Screen is what you use when you want to shorten your range, or stop and attack at melee range. Choking Gas does more than 100% of it's purpose. Shadow Power allow you to heal while continuing your attacks and it will only heal you if you are attacking, therefore it is designed for players to make more attacks when it is active. Gloom helps player to play at a closer range.

All hunting abilities are used to improve your edps, because you are getting more resource as well as more damage when you active them. Vault is used to shorten the distance between you and the mobs, 3 of the 5 rune need to have targets nearby and mostly focused at your destination. Preparation refill your Discipline for more tactical abilities or Hatred for more attacks. Companion deals 38% dps per strike, the bat can increase your Hatred regen, Spider for slow proc Cull the Weak and increase mob density for dh's small aoe, Boar will lore, Ferrets double 38% dps, and Wolf triple that amount. Marked for Death reduce monster defense so you can deal 12% additional damage.

About resource, I have this
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377137714
but only 1 of the 4 suggestion I'm giving increase the amount of Discipline you can gain.

btw how do you get this?

06/25/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Uberjager
DH's to hit upwards of 15 hatred regeneration if they gear in that manner, yes, it does

I counted 1.33 x 3 + 4 + 3 = 10.99
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 6/26/2013 3:28 AM PDT
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06/26/2013 03:26 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
All defensive abilities are used to improve you edps, because you will kite away less when you active them. Torturous Ground, Jagged Spikes, Bait the Trap will slow and stop mobs before they get to you by rooting, dealing damage, or by increasing your chance to deal more damage


Good point about Discipline helping you attack more and kite less. Now if you allocate most or all of your discipline to Gloom, and you don't need anything else.. hmmm . hmm .. not much else to add to that.

Why do it? and 2 - why do if it actually punishes you and not reward you.. Just gloom and well, not much else.
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 6/26/2013 4:17 AM PDT
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Iv'e just been running Smoke Screen Choking Gas on MP7. And with 350k unbuffed dps it takes about 4 seconds to kill a skeleton in Vota. Needless to say iv'e taken it off my active skills again.

Now if the AOE was about 2-3 times larger this would actually be worth using for me. It does actually have potential.

06/26/2013 03:26 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
If you are not using your Discipline to hunt, you are not playing a demon hunter.


Also Iv'e never quite thought about Disc this way but it does make alot of sense as you are using your defensive abilities in order to to keep on hitting monsters for as long as possible without being hit.
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btw how do you get this?

DH's to hit upwards of 15 hatred regeneration if they gear in that manner, yes, it does

I counted 1.33 x 3 + 4 + 3 = 10.99


I counted in bats.

Also. Most of the Discipline spends you elaborated in your post are barely used because gloom> is the only "survivability" you need.

To fix the problem discipline cannot be viewed as just a "defensive resource" but also as an offensive resource.

DH's now have the option to choose more offensive based disc spends or more defensive based disc spends.As a result, it makes a fairly simple choice (Just spamming gloom) into a more complex one.

"Do I spam gloom for eHP if I can deal 500% more damage per second on more offensive based spends?"

^ that is what I'm aiming for.
Edited by Uberjager#6563 on 6/26/2013 5:19 AM PDT
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Good point about Discipline helping you attack more and kite less. Now if you allocate most or all of your discipline to Gloom, and you don't need anything else.. hmmm . hmm .. not much else to add to that.

Venom you talked about dying in HC, because you reply on SP, that is the problem as SP is not a defensive ability, you don't heal unless you attack, and if you attack too slow you will die. I don't believe you want to be tanking with the same stat on my hunter for MP10, but I can and I can only do it with a calamity because the rate it heals is much faster than a Manticore.

I use most of my Discipline on Jagged Spike, not Gloom or Smoke.

06/26/2013 04:51 AMPosted by bob778
Iv'e just been running Smoke Screen Choking Gas on MP7. And with 350k unbuffed dps it takes about 4 seconds to kill a skeleton in Vota. Needless to say iv'e taken it off my active skills again.

Please use Jagged Spike as the aoe on Choking Gas is 3 yard, it is too small to damage the mobs. MP5 my unbuff 180k can take out mobs 4-8 sec with JS, so with your unbuffed 350k you can do the same with MP7-8.

If Choking Gas had 9 yard (same as Rend) I believe people will complain about other stuff than its range. The 3 yard is too small, but is it like using HotA except the gas is on you which means you need to stick yourself right at the mobs.

Uberjager,
I counted 1.33(class specific gear) x 3 + 4(base) + 3(bat) = 10.99
how are you getting 15 is my question as I already counted the bat
I have 9.55 with the bat when I strafe, and yes I will run out of Hatred.

06/26/2013 05:17 AMPosted by Uberjager
"Do I spam gloom for eHP if I can deal 500% more damage per second on more offensive based spends?"

My question for you is how are you playing the game?
You can remove Gloom since you got a LS weapon. I'm playing HC without SP what does that mean, I don't need it to survive. MP1-2 are fine with my dps. And to complete my statement, Gloom is not what you need Shadow Power is. the 35% reduction just gave you a melee class bonus with 35% instead of the 30% they have. And 15% ls is pretty unless you have 100k dps unbuff, because 100 x 15% x20%(inferno) = 3k Life per hit compare to loh which can only stack to 3k if you max out the gear.

If you want to suggest Discipline as an offensive resource please quote my post and make a new one. As I cleanly did not get it from your post. A few people like me has always viewed discipline as another resource which can be use for offensive, defensive, or anything. Just like the resource you get on other classes, they use one to do everything.

The problem is not in the resource, or the skills, but the way you are playing the game. Please don't ask for changes when you clearly did not understand the situation.

proc rate for NS depend on the skill you use, if you are not using any skills (empty slot) you will get 100% proc on crit. Skills deal more damage and at the same time reduced the proc rate.

I have L4N and 50 Discipline, but I still run out of Discipline because I use Jagged Spike and every time I lay down 5 it is 30 Discipline. SP is cheap as it is free with the set bonus, but when blizz extend the duration to 5 from 3 the cost of the skill got much cheaper, as you can gain 14 discipline in 5 sec very easy, make 3 attack per second if they all crt then 15+5=20. Give yourself some aoe reduce the chance to proc to 50% but assume you get 3 mobs than 15/2x3 +5 = 27.5.

The only time I think players run out of Discipline is if they chain cast Smoke and SP together. Or when they kept on using Punishment.
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06/25/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Uberjager
Nightstalker as it is is actually pretty fine but it does need a small buff. I don't exactly know % chance nightstalker has to proc. But I would say that it needs to proc about 75-100% more.


Night Stalker's proc co-efficient is that of what ever the skill's proc co-efficient is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgL5S3Revw9ddEhScEpSLWhnRDZKV25OaWZJcHdkN0E#gid=3

Max Hatred Regen is this:
Quiver 1.33
Weapon 1.33
Chest 1.33
Bat 3
Base 4
Templar 1
--------------------
Total 11.99 permanently
Night Bane +3
Total + NB = 14.99 for 5 seconds
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The problems most new players who main other class that come into DH will find one problem. Nothing is spamable. A few anyways and usually you are better off not spamming. Hard concept for Wiz and Barbs who seem to have unlimited everything.

That's what makes DH a polished. The only a DH can be on par is to be broken too. No amount of buff will get us close to monk or barb or wiz 's broken builds.

I go back to hardcore for a moment now..I see diversity in barbs and monks and wiz. Every skill is carefully selected and used.

I think this will shine more if the primary attacks remain the primary generator. Right now resource spenders out perform the primary attacks in everyway. AoE / DPS and worst of all resource regen. Spender stays a spender .. can not proc resource regen .. and we will have class balance within that class. Keep buffing the resource spenders and keep creating problem..

Hope you listen to one Blizzard..
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06/26/2013 12:25 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
you don't heal unless you attack, and if you attack too slow you will die. I don't believe you want to be tanking with the same stat on my hunter for MP10


I am learning more from dying in HC than SC .. SC death? it's an option so I don't really care.

06/26/2013 12:25 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
The problem is not in the resource, or the skills, but the way you are playing the game. Please don't ask for changes when you clearly did not understand the situation.


+1 on this one. I see too many players trying to do something the skill clearly is not designed to do.. or bypass something that is in place. I understand that finding that glitch /exploit feels empowering. DH has much less loop holes. So alot of time I see people asking for ways to finally get there exploit build to work ..
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Iv'e just been running Smoke Screen Choking Gas on MP7. And with 350k unbuffed dps it takes about 4 seconds to kill a skeleton in Vota. Needless to say iv'e taken it off my active skills again.


Sounds like it didn't crit.
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"Do I spam gloom for eHP if I can deal 500% more damage per second on more offensive based spends?"

^ that is what I'm aiming for.


Hmm, sounds like the tradeoffs I have to choose between in my build, although it's Shadow Glide for maneuverability, and not Gloom for eHP.

My disc fuels ToC, Punishment (for DPS), and Shadow Glide.

Pretty much everything thing you're asking for in your OP is similar to what I'm doing in game...
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Iv'e just been running Smoke Screen Choking Gas on MP7. And with 350k unbuffed dps it takes about 4 seconds to kill a skeleton in Vota. Needless to say iv'e taken it off my active skills again.


Sounds like it didn't crit.


Of course it didn't crit, from his profile I can see 388k remove the aps bonus so down to 241k this is the damage he gets with 55% cc so make that 100% which will be about 438k. 700% of this 3066k so the damage is roughly (with a lot of estimate) 613k per second.
When I first looked at his post, I thought he didn't "hit", so I suggested for him to use JS.
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I think the class is working okay, I enjoy thee play style and i'm a total glass cannon. It is how I think the class is supposed to be.

I quite enjoy rapid fire, but I solely rely on SP to stay alive in doing so. It is great, and I think the buff was much needed because it gives us a whole new viable way of playing the class. It is a huge trade off using rapid fire, it is hard to master in mp10 solo because it is easy to be over whelmed.

That said, we need a spammable AOE that doesn't require us to face tank. We have some neat skills that do AOE, but they are pretty useless. Take any of our aeriel attacks that drop bombs or rain arrows. They are all damage over time and it makes them useless. They should re-rune one or more of these to be a spammable attack with AOE.

Maybe the poison bola should shoot 3 bolas and leave a poison cloud for 3 seconds with 30% damage. Just something small to bring in a whole group and string together attacks. I suggest changing this skill because it really kind of sucks. Very lame to shoot 3 bolas at a single target and see two go uselessly past.

Maybe rework grenades and have them shoot like a traditional arrow? Their slow arch really sucks. Grenade tipped arrows would make sense. Why would we even use a crossbow with grenades if it were anything else?

Another issue I see with not having a spammable AOE is we are receiving a disproportionate amount of experience. A WW barb can link the attack nearly endless recieving huge exp bonus.5,000-10,000 exp bonus becomes a big deal when in mp10 it has a nearly 1100% multiplier with 5 stacks.

I still can't help but think that un-nerfing nether tentacles would solve a lot of the issues the class has. It was a nice semi-AOE attack before the nerf. It would slowly pass through crowds causing a lot of damage. It was really slow moving so it wasn't an ideal attack, but it worked nicely when you finally connected with targets. I think other players demanding its nerf was simply to the how poor the game was balanced in the beginning, and how terrible itemization was. Good gear simply did not exist.
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We should get a 30% buff against demons since we're DEMON hunters.
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