Diablo® III

[CO-OP] HC Self-Found League

07/01/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Wannabee808
Damn Demi, you about made me want to quit with your description of Hell and how we probably won't survive....guess it will have to be baby steps from there :)


Let me ease your mind, if only a bit. You have one potential advantage I didn't. It was my goal to get through the whole game with no SC to HC gold transfers and no help from anyone else in game. I played under a restriction of solo-only until I got through Inferno.

There is no better asset than good teammates in HC. Stick together and it makes a huge difference.
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Thanks for the add nameless I will be playing on Friday at approx 10 pm mountain time hopefully you will be online then and we can slay some nightmare. Hopefully you don't out progress me by then. Looking forward to killing. I am also running a s&b setup and have a nice slow attack weapon for my bells they work great. Finding that sss followed by bells really takes down bosses but I always keep serenity on the ready just in case
07/01/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Nameless
I can't imagine a way to hit 8K life by the time I hit SK in A1 Nightmare (as previously suggested by Huntingfox and since retracted).


shortly after entering A2 i got myself to 6.4k. when i did butcher i was at around 4-5, just for reference. butcher's big hit with the hammer dealt me 2k-ish damage. FYI and necessary action please
You have one potential advantage I didn't. It was my goal to get through the whole game with no SC to HC gold transfers and no help from anyone else in game. I played under a restriction of solo-only until I got through Inferno.

There is no better asset than good teammates in HC. Stick together and it makes a huge difference.

Yes... I think it is huge to play with teammates, as it certainly helps if we find ways to synergize builds when playing, and then sharing our crafts and drops as we go along. I suppose it can be seen as cheating, as it's not truly "self-found" but at least we are not accessing the wider domain of items that are being passed around from player to player. In that way, we are only using items that we find in our runs.

I'm not sure if I'd want to it the way you did it, Demi. I guess we all need help somehow -- you allowed yourself to use AH but wanted to do it solo; we're avoiding AH and choosing to do groups instead. I suppose it works out in the end.

Thanks for the add nameless I will be playing on Friday at approx 10 pm mountain time hopefully you will be online then and we can slay some nightmare. Hopefully you don't out progress me by then. Looking forward to killing. I am also running a s&b setup and have a nice slow attack weapon for my bells they work great. Finding that sss followed by bells really takes down bosses but I always keep serenity on the ready just in case

I'm actually hoping to be able to come close to completing nightmare by then. I don't know abut 10pm mountain time though... that's close to midnight for me and I'm usually close to wrapping up my games by then if I want any energy left over for my kids the next day. Drop me a line when you pop on next and I'll be more than happy to run with you.

07/02/2013 07:39 AMPosted by HuntingFox
shortly after entering A2 i got myself to 6.4k. when i did butcher i was at around 4-5, just for reference. butcher's big hit with the hammer dealt me 2k-ish damage. FYI and necessary action please

For me, I'm more worried about the fire than I am about the butcher's big hits. But 2K damage is good to know. I'm sitting at around 7.5k HP while DWing (both of my weapons have vit on there... yikes) and we just completed SK in A1. 8K life by the time I hit butcher is definitely doable -- I just need to find myself some better weapons!
as it certainly helps if we find ways to synergize builds when playing, and then sharing our crafts and drops as we go along. I suppose it can be seen as cheating, as it's not truly "self-found" but at least we are not accessing the wider domain of items that are being passed around from player to player. In that way, we are only using items that we find in our runs.


Not that I'm the final arbiter or anything, but I consider what you're doing legit self found. Given you're only playing with handful of others, and you're all only getting your gear from yourselves or each other, the benefits of sharing don't even come close to what the AH offers. Maybe call yourselves a "self found league" for shorthand.

Really, the only reason I think it matters in the slightest is you serve as an example of what can be accomplished by a handful of players progressing through the game with only the gear that you find or craft as a group. I'm quite sure there are others interested in such "self found leagues", and so as long as they understand what you're doing and how you're doing it, your posts are a service to the community.

Plus, even for those (like me) not interested in duplicating your efforts, it's an interesting read. I've loved the recent spat of updates we've been getting on the monk forums.
Edited by overg#1771 on 7/2/2013 8:22 AM PDT
Nameless, did you mention in another thread that you're doing this on MP-5 now? There are reasons to do this, but remember that it's ultimately more danger, and the only reward is getting through the content faster. You can always just re-run areas for the same effect, it just takes longer.

If you're doing it because you want more of a challenge and to test yourself, that's a fine reason to up the MP. If you're doing it because you're impatient and just want to get to Hell difficulty ASAP, I'd be inclined to say take your time and enjoy the journey. Slower progress is also more time to find the items you need.

It should also be noted that you don't really gain levels that much faster on MP-5. The XP bonus is additive with your helm bonus, so it's not strictly double. And if you're on level 38 instead of say level 35 where you would have been if leveling on MP-0, the base XP you get from each enemy you kill is less than it would have been, so eventually, you're earning significantly less than twice as much XP, yet still taking two an a half times as long to kill things while they're doing 50% more damage to you.

Whatever you do, it's usual for even people trying to power level themselves quickly to dial the MP back down to 0 when taking on the bosses.

Enough unsolicited advice from me. Do what you find fun. I just really want to see you make it to Inferno on your first attempt, however long it takes.
07/02/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Demiwraith
Nameless, did you mention in another thread that you're doing this on MP-5 now?

Yes, I did mention that. It was a group decision (although I know I pushed for it) because we were just smashing things in MP0 to the point that we couldn't even use any of our skills. We needed a little more resistance from the monsters to see how our skills could mesh -- we had a group of 3 or 4 at the time. I also had difficulty gaining spirit because monsters were dying way too quickly too. I probably wouldn't do this solo at MP5 though. I'd just slowly dial it up for challenges and stuff, and yeah, we'd probably dial it down once we hit a boss. Although SK went down without much a fight at MP5.

At the time, I think we had 2 monks and 2 barbs (all HCSF at approximately the same level). We're just past halfway through A1 and I hope to complete A1 tonight and maybe begin a little A2 action soon. I'm pretty sure we'd dial it down to MP0 for the butcher though.

Typically, I am rarely in a rush to level. Even in my SC tune, I never did that whole low-level MP0 XP run thing -- I tried, but it got too boring. My attitude has always been to play for challenge and fun and trust that the XP (and levels) will come when they come. That held true for SC, and it's holding true for HC too.

07/02/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Demiwraith
Enough unsolicited advice from me.

NEVER! Unsolicited advice will always be welcome by me in this thread... especially from you. You have much respect from me, so any opinions you offer will definitely be taken into consideration. Although I'm still resisting your suggestion to go AH route though -- mostly because I am only playing in groups these days anyway.

Not that I'm the final arbiter or anything, but I consider what you're doing legit self found. Given you're only playing with handful of others, and you're all only getting your gear from yourselves or each other, the benefits of sharing don't even come close to what the AH offers. Maybe call yourselves a "self found league" for shorthand.

Thanks. I like the idea of self-found leagues. I'm probably going to start posting in the other class forums to look for other HCSF players to add to my friends list. If/when I make it to 60, I'd like to run with other SFers who all share the same ideals in playing it in this way. I'm actually surprised to see how many others have come out of the woodwork who are also playing it this way. Even levelling up from scratch, I have at least 5 or 6 others on my friends list who are doing it HCSF. Thank goodness for the "friends notes" (or whatever it's called) feature in the game client so that I can keep track of which players are HCSF and which are not.

--

I am actually quite thrilled to have jco310, overg and demiwraith posting advice and suggestions in this thread. I consider both of you very highly respected in your parts of the game (overg for SF; demiwraith & jco310 for HC and S&B style), so I'm trying to soak in knowledge from both of you to see how I can blend your advice to make it work for me. Once again, I understand that the road will be very long in this form of play, but I have plenty of patience to make this work. Hope I can pull this off!
Nameless, did you mention in another thread that you're doing this on MP-5 now? There are reasons to do this, but remember that it's ultimately more danger, and the only reward is getting through the content faster. You can always just re-run areas for the same effect, it just takes longer.


The main reason was everything was dying too fast. No one could build up any resources and so we were all just running around using basic attacks. It wasn't very fun. Even at MP5, most things die in a couple hits, but they live long enough to gain some resources and allow you to take advantage of synergies you can have within a group. Our kill speed remained about the same, since we were actually able to use resource attacks in addition to basic attacks. Elite packs never lasted more then a single cast of rend. Also, because it was in a group the damage difference is greatly mitigated. Aside from 1 time when someone ate 3 exploding grotesque guys, I don't think anyone fell below 80% life.

For extra benefit, the extra magic find and gold find are the real bonus. You end up with a substantial difference in crafting mats, which we all do a lot.
Make a post in the HC forum, quite a few self found players there. Most HC players only post in that forum and they seldom, if ever, venture out of that forum.
07/02/2013 10:55 AMPosted by jco310
Make a post in the HC forum, quite a few self found players there. Most HC players only post in that forum and they seldom, if ever, venture out of that forum.

Done! Thanks for the suggestion. :)
aw look at the cute little gems you got. I miss those days :p
Two new tips that I happened to think of. I'm not sure they'll work quite as well for judging your own progression in HC as they do in SC, but they're two guidelines I've used in my self found journey.

Enrage Bosses = treasure goblins. Meaning, treasure goblins provide a great, safe, dps check to determine if you're ready for Butcher and Belial. I would not attempt either in HC, especially the latter, until you are easily killing treasure goblins every time you see them. If they're getting away from you, you're going to really be pressing your dps luck trying to take down the enrage bosses.

Potions. Pick up every potion you see. You are in comfortable territory if you're picking up more potions than you use (I tend to keep 100 in my stash and just sell off the extras). If you're just about breaking even, you're probably right where you're supposed to be for softcore, which probably means you're in a danger zone for HC. And if you're using more potions than you're finding, you're probably in over your head.

Once again, these "rules" were just what I noticed making my way through the MP levels in softcore, but you might take note and see if they work as good guidelines for HC too.
There's a wall in Hell. I never climbed it.

So I keep hearing about this huge wall that we'd hit once we hit hell. Now, typically, when I hit a wall in SC, I'd know it's a wall because I die. Repeatedly. But now that we are playing HC, I don't know what this means since death is no longer an option.

Can you possible enlighten me here? Is this when you see your health coming down further than you hope in battle, or is it more of a DPS thing where it seems to take forever to take down an elite pack because you don't have good enough weapons and DPS stats? I'm assuming it's more of the latter than the former since it seems to be harder to gain DPS than it is to become more tanky these days.

I guess I'm trying to brace myself for this eventual reality (of the Hell wall). My HCSF leveling group (mainly Chronotriggr, Zynestria and Wannabee808 with occasional appearances from Spencer21 and Huntingfox in the past) just made it past Nightmare A1 in MP5, and just beginning A2. It's all still pretty easy for us now, but it's still loads of fun but worried in the back of my mind about this wall of which many HCers speak.

Enrage Bosses = treasure goblins. Meaning, treasure goblins provide a great, safe, dps check to determine if you're ready for Butcher and Belial. I would not attempt either in HC, especially the latter, until you are easily killing treasure goblins every time you see them. If they're getting away from you, you're going to really be pressing your dps luck trying to take down the enrage bosses.

This is a great piece of advice that I think I will heed. So far, I think we may have let one goblin get away (or did we) - but that may have been more around being disorganized in our pursuit than it was our DPS. But yeah, I guess this can be one of those barometers that we can use to see if we can traverse that so-called wall in Hell mode that I was writing about earlier. Thanks again for the tip!
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 7/3/2013 7:37 AM PDT
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I almost wish I had an exactly copy of my HC character in SC.
Since I play so carelessly in SC I have no idea what my HC character can handle.

If my health ever falls below 50%, I bail!

I've seen too many scary spikey deaths in SC to ever want to fall below 50% health.

That being said, ignore me, I'm a major HC noob.

It's so easy in SC, you just push your monk till you die. When you die that's a clear tell you're under geared or under skilled.
That is NOT an option on HC!!!
Edited by KamelJabber#1103 on 7/3/2013 8:09 AM PDT
It's so easy in SC, you just push your monk till you die. When you die that's a clear tell you're under geared or under skilled.


My deaths are always the result of being under-nourished.

overg needs food, badly.
Nameless,

Do not, as others have advised, use the AH when you get to Hell. Yes, it is a bit of a wall to get over, but just keep farming and you'll either find the gear or craft the gear you need to get over that "wall." I'm a SFHC Monk as well, and I just beat Act I Inferno with 10k DPS and about 200k EHP. So, keep pushing my friend and I'd love to join you once you get closer to level 60. Also, craft a demon fang once you hit level 59, those can roll with 900 dps!

Good luck!

This is a great piece of advice that I think I will heed. So far, I think we may have let one goblin get away (or did we) - but that may have been more around being disorganized in our pursuit than it was our DPS. But yeah, I guess this can be one of those barometers that we can use to see if we can traverse that so-called wall in Hell mode that I was writing about earlier. Thanks again for the tip!


We only lost him because we were busy fighting 2 elite packs /w 3 trees in the highlands and he got hit by accident.

As for the wall, you will know when we hit it. One of two things will occur:

1. We kill too slow for progress to be effective

-or-

2. Our life begins to deplete at a rate we aren't comfortable seeing.

The key is to listen to the nagging voice in your head that is telling you that you don't feel very safe, and stop to farm at that point for gear upgrades.
@Millhouse9
Thanks for the encouragement, from an HCSF (or SFHC) monk who has gotten over the wall too! This whole farm then craft and/or vendor (as the only source of upgrades) has made the game very interesting again now. It does add a whole new dimension to the game that I'm really enjoying. So thanks for the encouragement. Onward and upward, I say!

07/03/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Zynestria
We only lost him because we were busy fighting 2 elite packs /w 3 trees in the highlands and he got hit by accident.

This is why this blog or thread won't be nearly as good as overg & demiwraith's posts. I can't really recall the details of what happens. But I'm glad that you are chirping in here to remind me of what happened. I remember that being a very hairy battle, but I don't think I was aware that we were trying to take down 2 elite packs and a pack of trees at the same time as the gob. However, I do remember feeling quite nervous during that battle with the craziness taking place around me during the battle. While it wasn't an NDE for me, it is probably as close to one as I've had since starting HC.

07/03/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Zynestria
The key is to listen to the nagging voice in your head that is telling you that you don't feel very safe, and stop to farm at that point for gear upgrades.

Or to drop it down a couple of MP levels and try again? But yeah, the bottom line is to listen to that nagging voice too.

--

Another point for people who are reading this thread with any remote degree of interest in this way of playing. Playing it SF (or maybe call it TF for Team Found for what I'm actually doing) while totally resisting AH makes for a much more enjoyable experience in between runs when we are all in town, salvaging our gear, crafting items, and sharing the results (and the occasional insults...lol). There's a lot of movement of gear between each other's stashes and it's been a very enjoyable experience (for me, anyway). And as for playing HC instead of SC... in some weird way, I feel "closer" to my team in this form of playing than I have ever felt playing SC (with AH). Maybe it's because we are fighting through the trenches and making sure we are watching each other's backs (or thankfulness that I have my team watching mine)

To contrast that experience with the normal way (that relies on AH), going back to town to salvage and go through stash is largely seen as a nuisance. There is the occasional e-peening on a GG item that you may have picked up but 90% of the time, it's a very solitary and boring process. Very little discussion on items and upgrades, etc. The sense of comraderie isn't as much there, as nobody really cares if they die except for the sake of pride and possibly being a nuisance for the team.

All I can say is that I've only done HCTF for 5+ acts, and I just gotta say that doing it in this way has been a much more enjoyable experience so far than doing it in SC. There is a part of me that wonders how much I will be picking up my SC character the further I get into HC. Yes, it's that much fun! :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 7/3/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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It also helps that the quality of guys we run with is top notch (well except for the one bastard that keeps taking breaks to change diapers...sorry guys :P)!

To second what Nameless said, it is that fun!!
Another point for people who are reading this thread with any remote degree of interest in this way of playing. Playing it SF (or maybe call it TF for Team Found for what I'm actually doing) while totally resisting AH makes for a much more enjoyable experience in between runs when we are all in town, salvaging our gear, crafting items, and sharing the results (and the occasional insults...lol). There's a lot of movement of gear between each other's stashes and it's been a very enjoyable experience (for me, anyway). And as for playing HC instead of SC... in some weird way, I feel "closer" to my team in this form of playing than I have ever felt playing SC (with AH). Maybe it's because we are fighting through the trenches and making sure we are watching each other's backs (or thankfulness that I have my team watching mine)

To contrast that experience with the normal way (that relies on AH), going back to town to salvage and go through stash is largely seen as a nuisance. There is the occasional e-peening on a GG item that you may have picked up but 90% of the time, it's a very solitary and boring process. Very little discussion on items and upgrades, etc. The sense of comraderie isn't as much there, as nobody really cares if they die except for the sake of pride and possibly being a nuisance for the team.

All I can say is that I've only done HCTF for 5+ acts, and I just gotta say that doing it in this way has been a much more enjoyable experience so far than doing it in SC. There is a part of me that wonders how much I will be picking up my SC character the further I get into HC. Yes, it's that much fun! :)


I couldn't agree more with this statement. Playing self-found hardcore has revitalized my passion for this game. Diablo is all about loot and playing self-found makes the loot in this game so much more exciting! I have to admit though, I'm jelly that you have a crew of other self-found players to roll with. I've been playing mostly solo through my journey so far, so I guess I just need to network more on these forums to help find a good team. If anyone wants to join me on inferno Leoric runs to find archon plans let me know!
Edited by Millhouse9#1885 on 7/3/2013 2:24 PM PDT
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