Diablo® III

Tyreal's Might is awesome. (must read thread)

Alright - It's a really cool idea, but the numbers don't add up.

I just went to D3up.com and changed my zuni marrow out for an equal in intell tyrael's might, and my inna's pants out for the best rare pants I could find on the AH (150 int 250 vit 600 armor 70 AR 2 OS). Here are the results (unbuffed DPS)

DPS Before: 318k DPS After 298k
DPS Elites: 328k DPS Elites 319k

EHP Before: 480k EHP After 453k

Yes, I a part of that DPS loss is the 9% attack speed off my inna's pants, but frankly I don't have mana issues with COB so lost attack speed IS lost DPS for me

Not to mention lower EHP.

Go Tyrael's if you want to switch it up, or farm Act IV exclusively (or other select areas) but you really have to settle down a bit about this Tyrael's madness :)


do you not have a good SoS?

if not it doesn't work for you anyway.

it's tyr might + SoS that makes this combo work.

tbh i gained all around so i don't see how you lost lol.

and its not just act 4, its more than 50% of act 2, more than 75% of act 3, and all of act 4. only about 25% of act 1 but hey the 14% elite dmg bonus is 100% of this games elites.
Edited by lameboi#1117 on 6/25/2013 8:48 PM PDT
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http://d3up.com/b/640677
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/battletag-11838/hero/2605279
Here's my Maximus, it doesn't show the 24% bonus of Fire though, we'll have to just add the math ourselves. This is FUN!
Edited by battletag#11838 on 6/25/2013 8:52 PM PDT
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well that looks interesting. ;) now you're talkin
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Yes, this concept works only if the 4 pc Zuni is maintained, which means, end-game SoS mojo. Now if only 1H weapons provided the 25% Fire damage and LS and OS, something that can be the WD's version of what WKL is for Monks.
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Ran a tyreal's for months, switching out my tyreal's/blackthorne's for zunimassa's/inna's has to be one of the most beneficial gearing changes I've made thus far. No way I'm going back to that pos item.
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I've run tyraels for a few months myself and it works even with my less than decent gearing. But wanting paper DPS made me drop tyraels for tals when I was running with a skorn. dropped tals for zuni now that I'm running 1H and mana became a problem for me =D

But to make tyraels outshine zuni you will probably really need some blockbuster gearing.
Also you lose a fair bit of EHP/mitigation.

correct me if I'm wrong but your reasoning is built a lot around giving players an alternative gearing for 24% MS with higher EHP while maintaining similar DPS in non-AS gearing. If that's the aim then tyraels is awesome. But for players who do not need 24%, going with a zuni chest might be better.
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I've run tyraels for a few months myself and it works even with my less than decent gearing. But wanting paper DPS made me drop tyraels for tals when I was running with a skorn. dropped tals for zuni now that I'm running 1H and mana became a problem for me =D

But to make tyraels outshine zuni you will probably really need some blockbuster gearing.
Also you lose a fair bit of EHP/mitigation.

correct me if I'm wrong but your reasoning is built a lot around giving players an alternative gearing for 24% MS with higher EHP while maintaining similar DPS in non-AS gearing. If that's the aim then tyraels is awesome. But for players who do not need 24%, going with a zuni chest might be better.


numbers don't lie. my ehp didn't suffer, the only thing i've "lost" is extra IAS and i still have over 226k sheet dmg WITHOUT any IAS gear.. meanwhile i also have 29% damage to certain elites and 14% dmg to all elites. if i swap to my vit SoS (i like the 13% SB one with 6k globes bonus) i even keep over 70k HP. find me the downside? ;)
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I ran a TM a good while back on my WD when I leveled him. I did like it for the 24% MS without needing Inna's or Lacuni. One thing that is tough is finding a SOS with at least 9% CC and high avg dmg. A good one like that with 285 or better will cost you bils unless you are lucky enough to snipe one cheaper. I have been keeping an eye on them and any one I would want is 2 bil and max bid instantly.

I am doing pretty well right now with my Doc though. I have zero mana issues, and not much gold invested at this point. I think a 3 socket TM would work pretty damn good with a 4 piece Zuni and Unity, but a good enough SOS would cost more than everything I have combined, plus anybody that had a good TM has jacked the price up now. I am fine where I am at this point, I just need an amulet like I have with 80+ CD instead of 15 max dmg.
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not really saying there is a downside. I think you went a lot towards damage and less towards mitigation. nothing wrong with that. just preference I guess.

With your current gearing if you took out tyraels for zuni, you get more EHP but less damage and MS.
You also get the option to play around with the offhand instead of having to use a sos if you wish to keep 4 zuni pieces.
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I ran a TM a good while back on my WD when I leveled him. I did like it for the 24% MS without needing Inna's or Lacuni. One thing that is tough is finding a SOS with at least 9% CC and high avg dmg. A good one like that with 285 or better will cost you bils unless you are lucky enough to snipe one cheaper. I have been keeping an eye on them and any one I would want is 2 bil and max bid instantly.

I am doing pretty well right now with my Doc though. I have zero mana issues, and not much gold invested at this point. I think a 3 socket TM would work pretty damn good with a 4 piece Zuni and Unity, but a good enough SOS would cost more than everything I have combined, plus anybody that had a good TM has jacked the price up now. I am fine where I am at this point, I just need an amulet like I have with 80+ CD instead of 15 max dmg.


yea i got the one i use for 800m so i was stoked. it's a pretty huge dmg spec reflect REALLY hurts haha.. but popping horrify balances out

huge dmg vs elites / demons without really sacrificing sheet
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Maximus
Tyrael's might
Visage of Giyua with -cost to firebats

I wanted that set up, but I didn't want to spend a billion on the right INT/CRIT/Lifesteal Maximus.

Want to see if ilvl63 magefist will outshine crafted gloves for cloud of bats.

Also, don't need a SoS and the full zuni set if you use a VoG and a 2 hander.
Edited by MCP#1477 on 6/26/2013 8:54 AM PDT
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06/26/2013 07:30 AMPosted by lameboi
numbers don't lie.


Sure they do, when you maximize the wrong function.

Marrow, Inna's and a quality rare ring is going to outperform Tyrael's, Blackthorne and Pox for general use. You've traded 9% IAS, 1% CC, about 300 stats (assuming a 12% life, high end Marrow) and 17% CD for 4% elite damage, 80 all res and some irrelevant LoH and MF. Rare pants aren't much better; you're basically trading the % life for Armor and the socket stats, which is a mild improvement. Unless you're fighting demons, the Marrow setup is going to be stronger.

The argument for String is definitely there. Tyrael's is a mistake.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Luffy-1946/hero/19397098

@Lame boi
I hate you man....

:P
Edited by Luffy#1946 on 6/26/2013 12:42 PM PDT
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numbers don't lie.


Sure they do, when you maximize the wrong function.

Marrow, Inna's and a quality rare ring is going to outperform Tyrael's, Blackthorne and Pox for general use. You've traded 9% IAS, 1% CC, about 300 stats (assuming a 12% life, high end Marrow) and 17% CD for 4% elite damage, 80 all res and some irrelevant LoH and MF. Rare pants aren't much better; you're basically trading the % life for Armor and the socket stats, which is a mild improvement. Unless you're fighting demons, the Marrow setup is going to be stronger.

The argument for String is definitely there. Tyrael's is a mistake.


how wrong can you be?
giving up a vit roll and either an armor or a life% roll

for 24% move speed
15% demons
4% elites
with higher base int roll + 3 sockets

clearly vit can be made up (i still rock over 65k hp without even a vit roll on my SoS or WH)

and i run either 14% elite bonus damage BASE (29% vs demon elites)
or
10% elite damage, 25% bonus demon elite damage, and 7% elite reduc with 1,000+ base AR. (if i run my litany).

the litany setup is actually the clear winner for survival. i'm just showing that you can run an SOJ without actually running an SOJ.

Luffy, beastly setup. nice job.

edit
btw luffy
run a red gem in your weapon. you will have lower sheet, but better overall sustain for 1h. trash will also go much faster.
Edited by lameboi#1117 on 6/26/2013 1:38 PM PDT
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Lameboi -

You need to stop throwing out numbers of damage that pertain to multiple items (unity, mojo, etc) when trying to prove a point. You need to simplify for the sake of your argument.

The comparison essentially boils down to Zuni Chest + Inna's Pants vs Tyrael's + Rare Pants (or Blackthorns)

For me (and most people) switching to the Tyreals set results in a pretty big loss in DPS vs. whites, and even a small DPS loss against elites, even with the 4% elite damage of Tyrael's. I also lose EHP, even using the best rare pants I could find. (All calcs done on D3up.com)

So really, you are praying you run into demons. That's the ONLY way Tyreal's is superior.

I appreciate the effort, but I don't want the entire forum to be mislead by your outlandish excitement and numbers that are very confusing to follow.
Edited by James1v12#1875 on 6/26/2013 1:45 PM PDT
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so i tried tyreal might/maximus combo 90kdps non zumi set out of boredom lol i think it still viable mp10

heres a quick video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Wl28Lplgo
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No one's denying that it's great, but it's just hard to keep the needed stats if you go with that instead of a zuni's marrow. If money isn't an issue then yeah, go with TM, otherwise it's going to be really hard to both have enough EHP without sacrificing a lot of DPS.
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06/26/2013 02:09 PMPosted by Zoid
If money isn't an issue then yeah, go with TM


No, not even that. Take the best rare pants you can find and the best Tyrael's. Unless you're fighting demons its not worth it in DPS or EHP.
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@lameboi
yea.....I only spent like 5 mins to put thing together out of the stash... a playable setup.
pulling out the red gem from my other sword is expensive....lol...

it's kinda fun... glad that i have a vital sword somewhere... the armor kinda sux tho...
had to watch my steps more carefully in VotA....

@james,
yea, the numbers are confusing...lol..
it's like.. from what buffed? where? what? LOL..
I usually use www.d3rawr.com to look at the dps numbers.
there you can add buffs like soul harvest, GF..but it doesnt have BBV.

base 232826.44

with only 5 soul harvest, (a general case in game)
DPS: 278867.57
vs. Demons:
DPS: 315120.35
vs. Elite:
DPS: 312331.68
vs. Elite Demons:
DPS: 348584.46

with GF: (5 stack may not happen often, but it can...)
DPS: 345698.04
vs. Demons:
DPS: 390638.79
vs. Elite:
DPS: 387181.8
vs. Elite Demons:
DPS: 432122.55

The only question i have...
What are elite demons and demons? I am not very clear ....lol

and how does is it comparing with our general setup zuni chest + 30% perfect roll SoJ?

I was testing sever too.. if anyone interested
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Luffy-1946/hero/28934550
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Luffy-1946/hero/28829072
Edited by Luffy#1946 on 6/26/2013 2:21 PM PDT
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The comparison essentially boils down to Zuni Chest + Inna's Pants vs Tyrael's + Rare Pants (or Blackthorns)


And everything you said from here gets even uglier once you realize that a rare ring is going to work over a Pox due to the lost CD from the Pox being capped at the ilvl 62 CD roll.

Pox has always been the weak link in the Zunimassa's set. This isn't news. If lameboi wants to boot Pox for a Litany, he can, but the smart play there remains grabbing the 12% life on the rare ring and the 7% elite damage reduction on the Marrow.

Long story short, you run a Marrow on WD. This isn't even remotely debatable.
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