Diablo® III

Question on Skorn vs MCK/Mojo

Hi, I'm testing between Skorn and MCK/Mojo build recently.

For me, MCK/mojo allow me to kill faster, is it something wrong with my Skorn setup? As I though Skorn should can kill faster than 1 hander.
I only swap a glove (170 INT/70 VIT/43 AR/8% IAS/10% CC) for Skorn setup, the rest of gears will be same.
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It's not about kill speed for regular enemies (normally)

The reason to use Skorn is to stand in as much as possible or to be able to buy cheaper gear over all because one needs less mitigation with the higher life steal (and for reflects damage).
Being able to stand in more stuff means you can keep channelling CoB and since you don't have to run away, you'll kill those tough elites/enemies faster.

If you're on high MP, I'd guess your one handed setup dies to reflects damage quickly if you don't wait until the RD is done reflecting.

Also a Skorn helps manage mana easier, so you should be able to drop widowmakers for something else.
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IMO, skorn set up is more cost effective to get into mp10 and farm comfortably.

1h/mojo once your gear is really good, it gives your better efficiency, but of course more expensive

To use MCK, it is better to get a good gory fetch, that 130 int bonus is huge, but good gory fetch 1) is extremely to find 2) cost godly

another option is to use rare weapon like spear/mace with serpent, this will give you the highest dps, but again, rare black weapon costs godly plus a godly serpent

Also , you can use rare weapon + SOS, this will be even better, as SoS will set free with your zuni helom/chest or pox for higher dps gears.
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Posts: 1,024
high lifesteal skorn is good against reflect dmg elites.

With 1hmojo on mp10, you will have to do most of your attacking in spirit walk or when their reflect is turned off. It takes a little figuring to kill rd on mp10 without suicide.
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I only play Mp10. When I using MCK/Mojo, I will need to position correctly on 1st attack vs RD elites, and get SW ready, after that I can stand and attack until the elites die, don't need to run around/recast; While for Skorn I can just 1 click and watch TV.....the slow tick rate from Skorn sometime cannot kill the fallen maniac before it explode.

@ MCP
I use Spirit Barrage / Locust Swarm when equip Skorn.

@ Neuron
I sold my 9.5% CC Gory Fetch away as it only give 11% life, while the DPS with the bonus 130 INT still lose to my existing Serpent, unless I can afford a 2Beez chicken. Good SoS hard to find, while I missed a 1/11hr deal before, sad!

Maybe I will try get more IAS/CD to test the speed of Skorn build.
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For me, MCK/mojo allow me to kill faster, is it something wrong with my Skorn setup? As I though Skorn should can kill faster than 1 hander.I only swap a glove (170 INT/70 VIT/43 AR/8% IAS/10% CC) for Skorn setup, the rest of gears will be same.


06/27/2013 08:01 PMPosted by KentLau
the slow tick rate from Skorn sometime cannot kill the fallen maniac before it explode.


Surely you don't mean that 0.4 secs or 0.5 secs is too slow? You die within 0.5 secs? Get more CHC (near 50%) to go with your CHD Skorn. If maniacs 1-shot you, then you probably get 1-shot by charging bulls, dark berserkers, mallet lords, etc too? Sounds like you need more mitigation and/or life.

Now on to your topic. Skorn and MCK are different gearing paths. The gear set up favouring MCK is not entirely suitable for Skorn, assuming you have limited budget and cannot get perfect stats for every slot. For example, a +average damage ring (your rare ring) is more beneficial to your MCK set up while my rare ring (high intel) is probably more beneficial to your Skorn set up.

I don't think the glove swap was good for comparison. CHC & CHD work as a pair, which means that your current glove with the MCK is also the better choice for your Skorn. Your MCK is top-tier, are you comparing with a equivalent Skorn as well?

DPS is legitimate DPS when you have no mana problems. If your 1H set up has higher DPS, you are going to kill mobs faster. There's no reason for a Skorn to kill faster than 1H, unless your 1H needs to reposition and restart channel.

I've done some research about Skorns here - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377138145
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A 1h setup has the potential to kill elites faster than a Skorn, but it depends heavily on gearing. You need either a lot of dps or a lot of ehp to get by on mp10 with only 3% life steal - it's usually a glass-cannon build. Your damage mitigation is pretty average and your jewelry lacks high average damage modifiers (which is critical for a MCK build). Instead, you have a very high critical hit chance and intel. As Paul said, these factors tend to favour a Skorn setup.

Most people find they can nuke elites the fastest with a 1h setup, but average run times are faster with a Skorn. There's no defined best weapon though - it's up to you to test out both options and see which feels best.

PS. I agree with everything posted already
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In my opinion most people are better off
using a skorn you don't have to gear as
heavily for res and armor so you can gear
up a lot cheaper also you can play with a
more relaxed play style that being said the
1h and mojo can work very well you just
have to gear yourself for it I think the 1h
setup has the potential to kill elites and
bosses faster but you have gear correctly
to do it white mobs die so fast there not a
factor for either 1h or 2h the skorn will
have an advantage against reflect because
of the high ls also people say it's easier on
mana but if you use a slower 1h like an axe
or spear and mana regen on your mojo it can
actually be easier on mana again it all comes
back to gearing each setup correctly.
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A 1h setup has the potential to kill elites faster than a Skorn, but it depends heavily on gearing. You need either a lot of dps or a lot of ehp to get by on mp10 with only 3% life steal - it's usually a glass-cannon build. Your damage mitigation is pretty average and your jewelry lacks high average damage modifiers (which is critical for a MCK build). Instead, you have a very high critical hit chance and intel. As Paul said, these factors tend to favour a Skorn setup.

Most people find they can nuke elites the fastest with a 1h setup, but average run times are faster with a Skorn. There's no defined best weapon though - it's up to you to test out both options and see which feels best.

PS. I agree with everything posted already


Excuse my ignorance, but why does average damage affect a one hander more than Skorn?
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A 1h setup has the potential to kill elites faster than a Skorn, but it depends heavily on gearing. You need either a lot of dps or a lot of ehp to get by on mp10 with only 3% life steal - it's usually a glass-cannon build. Your damage mitigation is pretty average and your jewelry lacks high average damage modifiers (which is critical for a MCK build). Instead, you have a very high critical hit chance and intel. As Paul said, these factors tend to favour a Skorn setup.

Most people find they can nuke elites the fastest with a 1h setup, but average run times are faster with a Skorn. There's no defined best weapon though - it's up to you to test out both options and see which feels best.

PS. I agree with everything posted already


Excuse my ignorance, but why does average damage affect a one hander more than Skorn?


one handers have a lower damage range. for example a 1hand sword with 1k dps might be 450-1010 damage range. but a skorn with 1000 dps would prob be around 600-1200 dps. so the av damage helps make up for the lower damage range.

as for 1h/mojo vs skorn its to each his own 1h and mojo is a more expensive rought to take but imo its the best end game set up. thats just my oppinion though,. 1h/mojo requires better mitigation to do what a skorn user can do,.
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06/28/2013 12:47 PMPosted by GunnersDream
Excuse my ignorance, but why does average damage affect a one hander more than Skorn?


This is an interesting question, it set me thinking seriously about how to reply in a simple but convincing way.

Let's say MCK 1000 DPS (1.4 APS) and Skorn 1400 DPS (1.0 APS).
Due to attack speed, the MCK average damage is 714, and the Skorn average damage is 1400.

If a ring provides +50 average damage, it buffs the MCK by 7%, but it only buffs the Skorn by 3.5%. The "+average damage" stat benefits dual wielders the most because the stat goes into the character sheet and affects both weapons.

Let's consider another ring with +100 Intel, added to the character sheet from 3000 Intel to 3100 Intel. The additional 100% damage affects the MCK by 714 damage, and affects the Skorn by 1400 damage. So the impact of the +Intel is better for a Skorn. The impact on the MCK matches the original 1000 only if the player has enough mana to cast 1.4 times. Therefore, you can say that Intel is not biased or prejudiced against either weapon choice because it is already % based, but it does demand more mana for weapons with faster APS.

Off-topic #1 - Ruby in weapon
Similar to the "+average damage" stat, you can easily see how Ruby is more beneficial to the MCK than the Skorn. It is interesting to note here, that the Ruby only affects the weapon it is socketed into, and not directly into the character sheet. For dual wielders, it is like paying full price for half the effect only, whereas the Emerald adds the CHD to the character sheet and the character sheet CHD is applied regardless of which weapon attacks. This means the Ruby is gimped for dual wielders and always shows lower sheet DPS compared to dual Emeralds. The reason why you see many dual wielders with Ruby in main hand is because some of their key DPS skills calculate off the main hand weapon damage. The conclusion for this topic is that Ruby is most beneficial for the 1H non-dual wielder path. This does not imply that Ruby > Emerald for those on the 1H path, it simply means Ruby benefits the 1H path the most.

Off-topic #2 - %elemental damage
Using the same example as above, MCK as 714 average damage, and Skorn has 1400 average damage. All of the Skorn's 1400 is "black damage". For the MCK, the "adds 300 - 500" stat is the elemental portion (averaging at 400 in this example). That means, the "black damage" portion for the MCK is only 714-400 = 314. That is a miserable number compared to the 1400 for the Skorn. If a player uses 8% Zuni boots, 6% Tal's amulet, 6% SoJ, the 20% added damage will be applied to the full Skorn, but for the MCK, only the "314" portion receives the 20% added damage. That's why most MCK users choose Ruby in their weapon.

Overall for DPS, the 1H path will be superior, but more demanding on the mana. 1H mace or spear seems to be the best, considering all the factors listed above. This also comes with the opportunity cost of 3% LS. Skorn really solves a lot of the headache, and is budget friendly. I've proven in a separate thread that the lowest DPS Intel+LS Skorn available in the AH can fully clear MP10. Unfortunately that thread got deleted by Blizzard. Double dose of LS is simply amazing. Only thing you need to take note is that Skorn is a high CHD weapon, you need to pair that with high CHC to bring out its full potential.

Video proof here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciy4hqjQj1Y

Edit: typo
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 6/28/2013 1:57 PM PDT
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06/28/2013 01:54 PMPosted by PaulNg
Excuse my ignorance, but why does average damage affect a one hander more than Skorn?


This is an interesting question, it set me thinking seriously about how to reply in a simple but convincing way.

Let's say MCK 1000 DPS (1.4 APS) and Skorn 1400 DPS (1.0 APS).
Due to attack speed, the MCK average damage is 714, and the Skorn average damage is 1400.

If a ring provides +50 average damage, it buffs the MCK by 7%, but it only buffs the Skorn by 3.5%. The "+average damage" stat benefits dual wielders the most because the stat goes into the character sheet and affects both weapons.

Let's consider another ring with +100 Intel, added to the character sheet from 3000 Intel to 3100 Intel. The additional 100% damage affects the MCK by 714 damage, and affects the Skorn by 1400 damage. So the impact of the +Intel is better for a Skorn. The impact on the MCK matches the original 1000 only if the player has enough mana to cast 1.4 times. Therefore, you can say that Intel is not biased or prejudiced against either weapon choice because it is already % based, but it does demand more mana for weapons with faster APS.

Off-topic #1 - Ruby in weapon
Similar to the "+average damage" stat, you can easily see how Ruby is more beneficial to the MCK than the Skorn. It is interesting to note here, that the Ruby only affects the weapon it is socketed into, and not directly into the character sheet. For dual wielders, it is like paying full price for half the effect only, whereas the Emerald adds the CHD to the character sheet and the character sheet CHD is applied regardless of which weapon attacks. This means the Ruby is gimped for dual wielders and always shows lower sheet DPS compared to dual Emeralds. The reason why you see many dual wielders with Ruby in main hand is because some of their key DPS skills calculate off the main hand weapon damage. The conclusion for this topic is that Ruby is most beneficial for the 1H non-dual wielder path. This does not imply that Ruby > Emerald for those on the 1H path, it simply means Ruby benefits the 1H path the most.

Off-topic #2 - %elemental damage
Using the same example as above, MCK as 714 average damage, and Skorn has 1400 average damage. All of the Skorn's 1400 is "black damage". For the MCK, the "adds 300 - 500" stat is the elemental portion (averaging at 400 in this example). That means, the "black damage" portion for the MCK is only 714-400 = 314. That is a miserable number compared to the 1400 for the Skorn. If a player uses 8% Zuni boots, 6% Tal's amulet, 6% SoJ, the 20% added damage will be applied to the full Skorn, but for the MCK, only the "314" portion receives the 20% added damage. That's why most MCK users choose Ruby in their weapon.

Overall for DPS, the 1H path will be superior, but more demanding on the mana. 1H mace or spear seems to be the best, considering all the factors listed above. This also comes with the opportunity cost of 3% LS. Skorn really solves a lot of the headache, and is budget friendly. I've proven in a separate thread that the lowest DPS Intel+LS Skorn available in the AH can fully clear MP10. Unfortunately that thread got deleted by Blizzard. Double dose of LS is simply amazing. Only thing you need to take note is that Skorn is a high CHD weapon, you need to pair that with high CHC to bring out its full potential.

Video proof here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciy4hqjQj1Y

Edit: typo


very insightful expecially for new players. maybe u should make a new topic with this info and try to get it sticked just for general info for new wd memebr or people that just want to learn more about the different effects of the ruby emeralds and % elemental damage. just my 2 cents but nice info.
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@PaulNg

Good post.
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Excuse my ignorance, but why does average damage affect a one hander more than Skorn?


This is an interesting question, it set me thinking seriously about how to reply in a simple but convincing way.

Let's say MCK 1000 DPS (1.4 APS) and Skorn 1400 DPS (1.0 APS).
Due to attack speed, the MCK average damage is 714, and the Skorn average damage is 1400.

If a ring provides +50 average damage, it buffs the MCK by 7%, but it only buffs the Skorn by 3.5%. The "+average damage" stat benefits dual wielders the most because the stat goes into the character sheet and affects both weapons.

Let's consider another ring with +100 Intel, added to the character sheet from 3000 Intel to 3100 Intel. The additional 100% damage affects the MCK by 714 damage, and affects the Skorn by 1400 damage. So the impact of the +Intel is better for a Skorn. The impact on the MCK matches the original 1000 only if the player has enough mana to cast 1.4 times. Therefore, you can say that Intel is not biased or prejudiced against either weapon choice because it is already % based, but it does demand more mana for weapons with faster APS.

Off-topic #1 - Ruby in weapon
Similar to the "+average damage" stat, you can easily see how Ruby is more beneficial to the MCK than the Skorn. It is interesting to note here, that the Ruby only affects the weapon it is socketed into, and not directly into the character sheet. For dual wielders, it is like paying full price for half the effect only, whereas the Emerald adds the CHD to the character sheet and the character sheet CHD is applied regardless of which weapon attacks. This means the Ruby is gimped for dual wielders and always shows lower sheet DPS compared to dual Emeralds. The reason why you see many dual wielders with Ruby in main hand is because some of their key DPS skills calculate off the main hand weapon damage. The conclusion for this topic is that Ruby is most beneficial for the 1H non-dual wielder path. This does not imply that Ruby > Emerald for those on the 1H path, it simply means Ruby benefits the 1H path the most.

Off-topic #2 - %elemental damage
Using the same example as above, MCK as 714 average damage, and Skorn has 1400 average damage. All of the Skorn's 1400 is "black damage". For the MCK, the "adds 300 - 500" stat is the elemental portion (averaging at 400 in this example). That means, the "black damage" portion for the MCK is only 714-400 = 314. That is a miserable number compared to the 1400 for the Skorn. If a player uses 8% Zuni boots, 6% Tal's amulet, 6% SoJ, the 20% added damage will be applied to the full Skorn, but for the MCK, only the "314" portion receives the 20% added damage. That's why most MCK users choose Ruby in their weapon.

Overall for DPS, the 1H path will be superior, but more demanding on the mana. 1H mace or spear seems to be the best, considering all the factors listed above. This also comes with the opportunity cost of 3% LS. Skorn really solves a lot of the headache, and is budget friendly. I've proven in a separate thread that the lowest DPS Intel+LS Skorn available in the AH can fully clear MP10. Unfortunately that thread got deleted by Blizzard. Double dose of LS is simply amazing. Only thing you need to take note is that Skorn is a high CHD weapon, you need to pair that with high CHC to bring out its full potential.

Video proof here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciy4hqjQj1Y

Edit: typo


I would like to clarify some misunderstanding and elaborate on the topic a little more

DPS = DPH×weapon attack speed ×(1+ ias% from gears other than weapon + passive/skill ias%)×(1+ main stats/100)×(1+ crit chance%×crit dmg%)×(1+ passive/skill dmg bonus%)

Average dmg from rings/amulets and offhand mojos/sources add directly to the weapon DPH

So if the total dps is the same for 1h/mojo set and skorn, skorn will have higher weapon DPH, if everything else stays the same, the same amount of avg dmg, 1h weapons will get a higher percentage of increase, because the new DPH= (old weapon DPH + avg dmg)/old weapon DPH will be higher, and since your crit chance, your int, your crit dmg and ias from other gear don't change, 1h/mojo set will have higher dps increase, because the avg dmg will amplied by weapon attack speed too. So for MCK and skorn it will be avg dmg *1.4 VS avg dmg, with everything else stays the same.

For int contribution, skorn and 1h/mojo setup will benefit exactly the same, since the only variable here is int, then the increase in DPS will be

DPS gain=DPH×weapon attack speed ×(1+ ias% from gears other than weapon + passive/skill ias%)×( INT Bonus/100)×(1+ crit chance%×crit dmg%)×(1+ passive/skill dmg bonus%)

In reality, things are way more complicated, because usually for Skorn and 1h/mojo to achieve same dps, your main stats (int) and crit chance/crit dmg and ias% will be different. and it all depends. If your int was the same for both setup. There is no advantage for a skorn on additional int in terms of percentage of dps gain, unless skorn setup starts with lower int, which can be the case or can be the other way):

1) senario 1: Skorn VS Manajuma set:
Skorn have lower int

2) senario 2: skorn with rare weapon + mojo, skorn can have higher or lower int depends on the specific items.

Here comes the Ruby question:

Does ruby benefit more for SKorn or for 1h weapon?

The answer is again, it depends

What ruby does is exactly the same as avg dmg from amulet /rings, but it will be amplified by your weapon's ED% affix first, then add to the weapon DPH.

So let's say a weapon with 50% ED, and 1.4 attack speed, a marquise ruby will add

160 X1.5X1.4=336 to your weapon dps or 160 X1.5=240 to your weapon DPH

for skorn , the weapon attack speed =1 (unless it rolls ias%), let's say it also has 50% ED

Then marquise ruby will add 160X1.5X1=240 to your weapon dps, or 160 X1.5=240 to your weapon DPH ( in this case weapon dps = weapon dph, because weapon attack speed is 1).

But in reality, because not every weapon roll 50% ED, and their attack speed varies.

It is hard to say that marquise ruby will benefit better for 1 h weapon than skorn.
For MCK, yes, because MCK comes with 1.4 weapon attack spead and 45%+ ED.
but for rare weapon ,it is not always the case. Some weapon might come with no ED roll, then marquise ruby's benefit will be diminished in this case. Some weapon might come with additional ias% roll, then marquise ruby will benefit more.
Edited by Neuron#1807 on 6/28/2013 3:43 PM PDT
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