Diablo® III

CoB End-game Progression Guide

its easier to run higher aps with a visage because you get more mana regen added to blood ritual, if you were gonna go with vision with higher aps as 2.01 mentioned above your going to need a hell of a lot of pick up radius if you aren't running visage. So your gruesome can feast upon mana regen. I run 1.82 aps with a visage and I rarely come across a pack that eats up all my mana and I am using bears. Make sure also if you want infinite bears either run WoS with RoE or you can run locust with devouring swarm which I do because I can run gruesome feast and not worry about any mana issue's rather than running WoS RoE.

-many others like paul, reaper, and other well known docs who submit their idea's and may be different from mine is completely fine as well and you should hear their input as well as mine is just through my personal experience. Just remember its gonna be hard to run high aps with a SoJ unless you want to run in a way glasscannon and ehp deprived. Just be ready for major tweaking.

-thanks
Reply Quote
Thanks for your input, running ZB isn't realy an option for me atm.

If i got the breakpoints right i should either stay as close as possible to 1.52 or go for 2.001?

As far as passives go i enjoy SV quiet a lot and i would really like to avoid taking a mana passive instead. Taking the mana rune on locust and Soul harvest is currently my best option.
In theory my mana itself should be ok for my build and play style, since i can handle PtV at the 1.52 breakpoint which results in almost the same mana per second usage as an 2.001 build without PtV.

I guess my biggest question would be: is 2.001 aps CoB worth it? (in theory it should be 1/3 more dmg due to the extra tick)

About the Visage, you are right the extra mana reg and reduction would help, however i would loose my 2 piece tal and a lot of int. Without the 9% on my tal armor, reaching 2.001 aps is a lot harder with my current gear. So overall that sounds like a lot of sacrifices to me.
Reply Quote
10/04/2013 03:34 PMPosted by RambaZamba
First of my question would be how much of an dmg upgrade is the jump from the 1.52 breakpoint to the 2.001? Is it comparable to, for example barbs WW ticks (where hitting breakpoints actually might increases your damage even if your screen dps went down).


1.501 APS provide more DPS than 1.57 APS.
1.701 APS provide more DPS than 1.76 APS.
2.001 APS provide more DPS than 2.14 APS
Yes, "wasted" damage optimization throws out the character sheet DPS, details in Topic (3) Part 1 CoB Mechanics.

1.501 APS = 19 frames per tick
2.001 APS = 14 frames per tick
Assuming everything else is unchanged, DPS goes up by 35%. However, a WD can upgrade 35% damage via stats, CHC, CHD, and +Average damage too. After that, adding some IAS to push the DPS to limits where the mana can be sustained.

10/04/2013 03:34 PMPosted by RambaZamba
My second question would be how playable the 2.001 actually is. Is it possible to run it with only 4p Zuni, SoJ, an Mana reg mojo and Jaunt?


Topic (4), I listed and compared all the 1H weapons to push the IAS limits. Your SoJ will need to be -FB, and your Mojo will need to have Max Mana and Mana Regen. That means, every gear slot that can be mana related must have 2 stats to support mana. Even so, you will still need 1 mana passive (BR or SA).

It is not practical to keep pushing APS higher, the eHP and mitigation will be affected, and you won't be able to use PTV or BBV. At lower APS, you can still achieve the same DPS, and you have the options of using PTV or BBV to push your DPS higher. Many 1H players settle at 1.501 to 1.801 APS region.

GI and GF are conditional mana tools, there are many situations where such conditions are not favourable.

Edit: Be careful with the 2-pc Tal's bonus. If your APS gets messed up, your "wasted" damage can exceed 3%. If you planned for Zuni 4 pc + Tal's 2 pc, you also need to plan for APS.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 10/5/2013 12:36 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Hey Paul,

Thanks for your great feedback.

I guess i am still a bit confused by the breakpoints...How does the 1.501 breakpoint compare to the 1.701 in terms of wasted dmg? (usings 4 pc Zuni + 2 pc Tal).

In terms of CoB at 2.001: With a 1.2 Weapon i'm sitting at 1.52 aps. What got me thinking is the fact that it can be really hard to get a very good weapon with 1.2 aps (even with decent funds).
Pushing my aps to 2.001 would be quiet expensive but "easy" ( the ah has enough 1.52 aps swords etc.). Though i'm really afraid of the mana usage of this set up.

As far as PtV goes, i love playing with SV so every other passive is not interesting for me atm. Actually the 2.001 Breakpoint sounds like getting the mana usage and dps output from PtV without using it, maybe i'm getting it wrong?

As far as dmg goes, in my current gear it's quiet hard to achieve 35% more dmg especially without touching my aps.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/RambaZamba-2778/hero/34296
Edited by RambaZamba#2778 on 10/5/2013 1:51 AM PDT
Reply Quote
10/05/2013 01:19 AMPosted by RambaZamba
I guess i am still a bit confused by the breakpoints...How does the 1.501 breakpoint compare to the 1.701 in terms of wasted dmg? (usings 4 pc Zuni + 2 pc Tal).


Copied my post from another thread:
-----
The concept is that 500.5% damage (ramp up portion) gets equally distributed over 5 seconds. Let's say the 500.5% damage is worth 100k to make the maths simpler.
We get Tick Increment Damage:
100000/12.95 - case 1
100000/13.67 - case 2
100000/15.10 - case 3
100000/16.47 - case 4
100000/17.39 - case 5
100000/17.69 - case 6

Over 5 seconds, we expect:
12.95 ticks - case 1 - we only get 12 ticks of increments
13.67 ticks - case 2 - we only get 13 ticks of increments
15.10 ticks - case 3 - we only get 15 ticks of increments
16.47 ticks - case 4 - we only get 16 ticks of increments
17.39 ticks - case 5 - we only get 17 ticks of increments
17.69 ticks - case 6 - we only get 17 ticks of increments

Reason is, we either get a tick or no tick in the game. The final decimal tick is discarded because if we get another tick increase, we will overshoot the tooltip damage.

In this example 500.5% half-melee per-hit-damage (not sheet DPS) = 100k damage,
Wasted Damage
12.95 ticks - case 1 - [100000 - (100000 / 12.95) x 12] = 7.3% of the 500.5%
13.67 ticks - case 2 - [100000 - (100000 / 13.67) x 13] = 4.9% of the 500.5%
15.10 ticks - case 3 - [100000 - (100000 / 15.10) x 15] = 0.7% of the 500.5%
16.47 ticks - case 4 - [100000 - (100000 / 16.47) x 16] = 2.9% of the 500.5%
17.39 ticks - case 5 - [100000 - (100000 / 17.39) x 17] = 2.2% of the 500.5%
17.69 ticks - case 6 - [100000 - (100000 / 17.69) x 17] = 3.9% of the 500.5%
-----
In your case, 1.701 will have less wastage than 1.501 because the ramp-up portion (500.5% damage) is divided by 17 instead of 15. The difference however, is very small. I'm guessing 0.1%. Just punch the numbers into a calculator and you can see the difference.

10/05/2013 01:19 AMPosted by RambaZamba
Pushing my aps to 2.001 would be quiet expensive but "easy" ( the ah has enough 1.52 aps swords etc.). Though i'm really afraid of the mana usage of this set up.


A weapon with in-built %IAS pushes up the base APS when multiplying with gear IAS. From this viewpoint, An axe without in-built IAS should serve your intentions better. A sword just consumes a lot of mana.

10/05/2013 01:19 AMPosted by RambaZamba
Actually the 2.001 Breakpoint sounds like getting the mana usage and dps output from PtV without using it, maybe i'm getting it wrong?


I would use the reverse way of describing it. Using PTV at lower APS allows a player to output damage equivalent to far higher APS, provided the mana can be supported. More importantly, having lower APS gives you buffer for group buffs and skills used by other players. If you gear to the limiting APS, any APS buff by any player will break your WD.

10/05/2013 01:19 AMPosted by RambaZamba
As far as dmg goes, in my current gear it's quiet hard to achieve 35% more dmg especially without touching my aps.


When I previously looked at your profile, I saw several IAS pieces, so I meant to say that if we remove all the IAS pieces, estimating a 35% DPS drop, we can gear this 35% DPS through other stats. From there, any additional piece of IAS you add on will enhance DPS by a lot, and you balance this with mana management.

For WD class, pushing IAS is the "final move", after all the other stats are in place.
Reply Quote
Thanks again for your great feedback.
I think i ditched the idea of 2.01 aps for now ;).

My question now would be where to settle instead? You mentioned that something between 1.501 and 1.801 would be good.

As far as ias goes i'm only using 3 pieces atm and i would be glad to not buy more of them.Since all of them are 9% i could get -3% IAS over all.
After initially reading your threat i wanted to get as close as possible to the 1.5 breakpoint.
With a 1.2 spear i'm currently sitting at 1.52 aps an axe with 1.3 will put me to 1.63 and the 1.4 sword will en up at 1.78.

So with an spear or axe i actually still want to loose some IAS in order to get closer to 1.501 or 1.601? And assuming i have the sam screen DPS with an spear or axe will the spear come out on top?
Reply Quote
10/05/2013 03:18 AMPosted by RambaZamba
My question now would be where to settle instead? You mentioned that something between 1.501 and 1.801 would be good.


I'm afraid only you can answer that question, depending on your preference. 1.501, 1.601, 1.701, 1.801, 1.901, 2.001 are all good for CoB "wasted" damage.

I'm known to be a loyal supporter of Skorn. There are just too many combinations and number crunching scenarios that wipe out my interest in the weapon path. I suggest you choose your favourite weapon and stick with it. There will be many more factors to consider for your chosen weapon (stats on mojo and helm, skill combo, mana management, buffs, etc).

For 3 pieces of IAS
Spear - 1.2 x 26% IAS = 1.512 APS (19 frames)
Axe - 1.3 x 24% IAS = 1.612 APS (18 frames)
Sword - 1.4 x 22% IAS = 1.708 APS (17 frames)
Sword - 1.4 x 27% IAS = 1.778 APS (higher wastage but higher APS bracket also, 16 frames)
For the sword, you need to calculate if the minimal "wastage" is better, or whether higher frequency + higher "wastage" is better.

So with an spear or axe i actually still want to loose some IAS in order to get closer to 1.501 or 1.601?


That is right. Those APS provide higher DPS even though the character sheet tells a different story.

10/05/2013 03:18 AMPosted by RambaZamba
And assuming i have the sam screen DPS with an spear or axe will the spear come out on top?


If you have the same sheet DPS, it means one weapon is hitting slower but harder, and the other weapon is hitting faster but each time having less damage. There shouldn't be any difference in the DPS unless due to "wastage".
Reply Quote
I think i finally understood everything ;).

Thanks for your patience you helped a lot.

I agree with you about Skorn, i also think it's usually the better choice. I did take a break before the CoB patch hit and sold all my Gear in that process was able to achieve huge profits.

Back then i was 100% Skorn user and was lucky enough to own one of the top 3 Skorns on EU.
For me a huge part of the fun is gearing itself, so instead of hunting my "old shadow" i choose to take some of the fun new gearing choices that opened up after the patch. Which ultimately lead me the 2 pc Tal's.
Reply Quote
10/05/2013 05:09 AMPosted by RambaZamba
For me a huge part of the fun is gearing itself, so instead of hunting my "old shadow" i choose to take some of the fun new gearing choices that opened up after the patch. Which ultimately lead me the 2 pc Tal's.


Glad you're enjoying the game in your own way. For most of us, we stopped getting new gear. We're just doing "copy and paste" and transferring all gear to the next new character and getting to P100 again and again.
Reply Quote
Well i'm still in the progress of re-gearing and getting my first p100 char.
So the next stop will be a copy and paste WD ;).
Reply Quote
07/02/2013 11:32 AMPosted by PaulNg
What’s so special about 50% CHC? It is the breakpoint such that 1 out of every 2 ticks is going to be a critical multimillion damage tick, which also means that you will get at least 1 critical tick every second as long as you don’t die within 1 second and you’re hitting something, you will tank very well. If you die within 1 second, please reduce the MP level.


Did you make this statement upon observations? That is you were critting every second?
Reply Quote
10/07/2013 02:17 AMPosted by konieczny
Did you make this statement upon observations? That is you were critting every second?


You can watch any of my videos, the proof is all there. Every topic. Actually I crit more often than that.

Edit: Unless you mean to zoom into the microscope about how random numbers work, and the statistical probability of getting a series of non-crits (which will surely happen) and see if the WD can live through that battle using an Emerald instead of a Ruby. Either way, I do recommend that if the player cannot survive 1 second, he/she should lower the MP level.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 10/7/2013 2:25 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Thats quite surprising that propability of two independed events with a chance to occur of 50% is 100% :)
Reply Quote
10/07/2013 02:31 AMPosted by konieczny
Thats quite surprising that propability of two independed events with a chance to occur of 50% is 100% :)


Ahhh.... haha, well... that's the "secret" of CoB. There's something intricate you have yet to uncover! Discover the power of the build, long read, but definitely worth it. The details and videos will guide you through MP10.

Edit: ok I will save you the trouble of reading through the whole guide, although I will appreciate if you bothered to do so.
Typical multiple targets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oRn8mVTvGc
Single boss target: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzaiVabKnUc
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 10/7/2013 2:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Hi PaulNg,
I just made some upgrades for my WD
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/QHTran-1403/hero/22163175

crafted amy and bracers for alot more dps but drop quite a bit of HP
got her own WH (instead of having to share) that uped dps and HP but drop a bit of armor
crafted gloves to maintain the 2 ias slot for the break point

I check the pricing of the tal rasha's ammy and they were too expensive
Can you let me know what else I should look at?
Is my HP okay at this level?
Reply Quote
Can you let me know what else I should look at?Is my HP okay at this level?


Are you actively in MP10 group runs yet? If not, I have a suggestion:
1) Get blackthorne's pants with >260 Vit and 12% Life. Hopefully your budget allows for some AR or +Armor. Keep your rare pants in your stash until Paragon levels provide the necessary Vit.

2) Get a 6% CHC Zuni Pox. The basic Pox without Vit is cheap, it is getting the socket or double intel that shoots up the price.

3) Your shoulders look quite odd being a Vit roll. See if you can get a good Intel craft.

Go for the popular group farming routes in MP10 (avoid Vota for the time being). Get your loot, gold and exp up rapidly. With much higher life, and keeping to the easier routes, you can take out JF and put in GF (or PTV). It will speed up your efficiency.
Reply Quote
07/02/2013 11:32 AMPosted by PaulNg
CoB Mechanics (Part 1): Wasted Damage


    Edit: My below math is wrong, don't rely on it for any calculations. End edit.


Math Session
BFG
weapon damage 850-1150
attacks per second 1.0
+
Ring of Haste
increases attack speed by 5%
1.05aps | 1050dps | 10.5 increments | 0.5 wastage
1050 / 10.5 * 10 * 10.01 = 10010edps

BFG
weapon damage 850-1150
attacks per second 1.0
+
Ring of Quickening
increases attack speed by 8%
1.08aps | 1080dps | 10.8 increments | 0.8 wastage
1080 / 10.8 * 10 * 10.01 = 10010edps

Result: same wastage increment, identical edps

--

ChopChop
weapon damage 400-1000
attacks per second 1.4
+
Ring of Haste
increases attack speed by 5%
1.47aps | 1029dps | 14.7 increments | 0.7 wastage
1029 / 14.7 * 14 * 10.01 = 9809.8edps

ChopChop
weapon damage 400-1000
attacks per second 1.4
+
Ring of Quickening
increases attack speed by 8%
1.512aps | 1058.4dps | 15.12 increments | 0.12 wastage
1058.4 / 15.12 * 15 * 10.01 = 10510.5edps

Result: different wastage increment, different edps

--

Been back and forth in my mind over this for quite a while, hopefully this cements it with a working example.
Edited by Surijak#1957 on 10/8/2013 8:13 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Holy crap what an awesome guide! I just started leveeling a WD (currently level 43) and am looking forward to gearing one up. Thanks for all your work on this Paul et al.... I am interested in gearing one up using a skorn because I like the idea of the lifesteal... do you help people build sets at all? I don't even know how that would work if you do.. I don't have tonnes of gold so I was going to use the one link in your guide (http://d3up.com/b/826735/p100-price-details#gear) to try and gear him but I am screwed if I mess it up...
Reply Quote
10/08/2013 05:53 AMPosted by Surijak
Been back and forth in my mind over this for quite a while, hopefully this cements it with a working example.


And your question is?

1.05aps | 1050dps | 10.5 increments | 0.5 wastage1050 / 10.5 * 10 * 10.01 = 10010edps


I wouldn't calculate the eDPS that way.

Using your weapon damage 850 - 1150, I'd take the average at 1000 damage per hit.
Step 1: Consider half a hit, because that's how each tick is calculated at baseline. That will be 500 damage per tick.

Step 2: I'll look into the APS @ 1.05
Wasted damage = (5.005 x 500) - [(5.005 x 500 / 10.5) x 10] = 2502.5 - 2383.33 = 119.17
Max channel damage output = 2383.33 per tick.

Step 3: Follow Nubtro's APS bracket table,
@ 1.05 APS, we tick every 28 frames, that is 2.14286 ticks/sec
eDPS = 2.14286 x 2383.33 = 5107.14 DPS

Step 4 (if you like): sheet DPS = 1050 DPS, half-DPS = 525
CoB multiplier = 5107.14 / 525 = 9.73
----------
Example 2:
Using your weapon damage 850 - 1150, I'd take the average at 1000 damage per hit.
Step 1: Consider half a hit, because that's how each tick is calculated at baseline. That will be 500 damage per tick.

Step 2: I'll look into the APS @ 1.08
Wasted damage = (5.005 x 500) - [(5.005 x 500 / 10.8) x 10] = 2502.5 - 2317.13 = 185.37
Max channel damage output = 2317.13 per tick.

Step 3: Follow Nubtro's APS bracket table,
@ 1.08 APS, we tick every 27 frames, that is 2.22222 ticks/sec
eDPS = 2.22222 x 2317.13 = 5149.18 DPS

Step 4 (if you like): sheet DPS = 1050 DPS, half-DPS = 525
CoB multiplier = 5149.18 / 525 = 9.81

*At higher APS, 1.08 has higher wastage than 1.05, but 1.08 still output higher DPS because it belongs to the next APS bracket (tick frequency).
----------------

Since you've got the steps worked out in the post below this. I'll not calculate for the 1Hander, but for sure the 1.512 APS is going to be much better due to lower wastage and higher APS bracket.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 10/8/2013 8:16 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Ah I see, I was ignoring part 2 with the brackets trying to isolate the wastage. It's not going to boil down so simply, I'll review. Thankyou.

10/08/2013 07:43 AMPosted by PaulNg
And your question is?
You've answered it. :)
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]