Diablo® III

Game punishes you for being different.

Few points:

- In D3, there is little point in using sub-par performance builds when you can switch to the most optimal in only a few mouse clicks away.

- The attention given by Blizzard towards Monster Power has created a DPS-oriented/performance-oriented build culture. i.e. many people think MP10 is an endgame to reach for (partly due to lack of endgame content in D3), so who cares about subpar performance builds.

- For the DH at least, many of the runes are unbalanced or are not varied enough.

- Don't rule out stat points/skills points just because you want to be different to Blizzard North.
Edited by DaFemaleBoss#2450 on 7/2/2013 4:51 PM PDT
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Disagree, i dont use the most optimal builds and i do not feel punished.
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07/01/2013 06:36 PMPosted by blackjack
ALL builds are Life steal based. None are Life on hit based anymore. Procs don't matter.


I wish they did matter. I remember when i had a pets build with my 'Proc' Doc. Even though I had crap damage it was the most fun to stun/freeze/disable everything, and have insane LOH. Once they 'fixed' that it left no choice but to run bears, and more recently, CoB
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So much of the game tries to limit diversity.

  • Want to try a new skill? Got to lose your nephalem valor.
  • Want to try a new skill? There will be a seemingly random amount of timeout where you can't use that slot.
  • Want to try a new skill? The equipment you're wearing may need to be changed, requiring piece by piece substitution.
  • Want to try a new skill? You'll have to give up something you absolutely rely upon to keep you alive.


Given 3 Diablo wishes, I'd increase the number of active skills, I'd remove the skill timeouts, which don't make any sense anyway, and I'd stop the game from removing the nephalem valor. I would instead have it timeout as usual, but allow it to persist across sessions, and any style of play I choose. And if the Diablo Genie were in a generous mood, I'd use a 4th wish to have a hotkey for build swaps - magic find gear and appropriate skill set when I want to grind, protective gear and skill set when I must retreat and defend, and some power gear and skills when I'm feeling invincible.

Whenever I play, I don't consider it really counting until I've got 5 stacks again, so I know that I can hunt Keywardens, and get the extra boost to drops. ie. that I'm getting the maximum out of the game. Like crafting, there's never really a good time to play around with skills, because you're almost guaranteed to be disappointed.
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i got problem with my parental control i cant set
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1) I think you should bring back skill points - that way, any skill can become viable and you can call
yourself unique. We already have skill buffs on items (.e.g SOJ), to extend that I feel we should have skill buffs on the character too (skill points)

2) A lot of people here suggesting cooldowns are a problem. I agree.
e.g. DH's Rain of Vengeance instead of 30 Hatred and 30 sec cooldown, how about 120 Hatred and no cooldown? This is a very crude example but you can see already how much freedom you have already.
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Here are links to my builds:

Zero Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725050 | General zero dogs setup great for MP10 anything.

Reaper Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725077 | Great for gob hunting and any pt without permafreeze. Also Note that the Rain of Corpses that you cast (not mimics) has its speed rate tripled when casting while mimics are out.

Well of souls - http://d3up.com/b/725133 | Awesome crowd control and really fun to use.

-------
MP10 viable but more for fun.

Healer Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725360 | For running in a party; creates mass globes for healing and other skills like gruesome and vengence. I get 284k Life per second with this build.

Permafreeze - http://d3up.com/b/725199 | Yes the WD can permafreeze. This build uses zero dogs as an infinate mana generator. Also abusable with other high cost spells switching the mainhand and acid cloud.

-------
Extra Personal fun

Life tank - http://d3up.com/b/725010 | 343k life! (focus LOH, tanking) works really well swapping the azurewrath sword for proc freeze.
Pileon - http://d3up.com/b/725258 | Just fun to use in general although the knockback can be annoying.
My Friends - http://d3up.com/b/725308 | I've got friends (on the other side)


Uri sweet builds man.... nice WD
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


games like this will always boil down to efficiency what deals the most damage while clearing the most mobs the fastest. if nothing compares to bats then it wont even be recognized
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


As someone who plays a WD when I do play I will say no. There is no equal to Cloud of Bats at this time.

0 dog and zombie bears cannot compete. All specter builds are a joke. Fetishes do next to nothing in terms of damage. Wall of Zombies while fun, takes entirely too long to cast.

Cloud of Bats is really, really good. It reminds me of where Trail of Cinders was last year around this time.

By the way, that comment about there always being an optimal choice is false. When the design is broken down to a graded system for each ability, the balance comes about much easier. It is just a matter of putting schools and parameters around each ability, deciding which is the best and grading everything else behind that. Then add those to each possible build and see which ones lack.

This also makes it easy to add new abilities. Want to give wizards a pet? Look at their current total score in comparison to WD and DH to see how good their pet can be. It is a very granular system but you have a finite number of skills within each class. You can develop a grading system based on that with very little trouble.
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Cloud of Bats
Call forth a swirl of bats that damage nearby enemies for 501% weapon damage as Fire. The damage of the bats increases by 20% every second, up to a maximum of 100%.

If the skill starts off doing 501% weapon damage... well 20% of that is 100% weapon damage... so it would go from 500% weapon damage to 1000% weapon damage.


Since they phrase it "up to a maximum of 100%" it sounds additive over the 5 seconds.

That's why I read it:

500% + 20% per second. e.g. 521%, 541% up to 601% after 5 seconds.

The base 500% refers to weapon damage, so it makes sense to assume the 20% refers to that same weapon damage, and not to the stacked damage of the skill.

Note that the Plague Bats description is worded additively. And Plague 578% is very close to Cloud 601% which leads me to believe that's how Blizz has implemented it.

It's still ambiguous, though. Does anyone have some concrete testing on this?
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Cloud of Bats
Call forth a swirl of bats that damage nearby enemies for 501% weapon damage as Fire. The damage of the bats increases by 20% every second, up to a maximum of 100%.

If the skill starts off doing 501% weapon damage... well 20% of that is 100% weapon damage... so it would go from 500% weapon damage to 1000% weapon damage.


Since they phrase it "up to a maximum of 100%" it sounds additive over the 5 seconds.

That's why I read it:

500% + 20% per second. e.g. 521%, 541% up to 601% after 5 seconds.

The base 500% refers to weapon damage, so it makes sense to assume the 20% refers to that same weapon damage, and not to the stacked damage of the skill.

Note that the Plague Bats description is worded additively. And Plague 578% is very close to Cloud 601% which leads me to believe that's how Blizz has implemented it.

It's still ambiguous, though. Does anyone have some concrete testing on this?


Plague is better. The 5 seconds aren't really that noticeable with pets around and plague has a higher range in the cone shape.
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07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
Things EVERY PLAYER WANTS:


I call complete bogus.

07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
Assignable Stats


doubt it. it would be nice but im not begging for it, its a part of the past now.

07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
Proper Skill tree System


Funny, i think it is just fine as it is. just lacking in number of skills.

07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
NO RMAH


actually, a lot of people want this because not everybody can play diablo 3 as a dedicated player, yet they want to have fun smashing higher levels. and lo, the rmah is there to see this happen.

07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
8 player games


atm, the screen flashes so much... x2 would make me be unable to see.
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To all those wanting statistics about build diversity, they already exist;

Paragon 0-49

1. Witch Doctor (most popular build used by 0.74% of people)
2. Demon Hunter (most popular build used by 1.70% of people)
3. Wizard (most popular build used by 3.7% of people)
4. Monk (most popular build used by 8.79% of people)
5. Barbarian (most popular build used by 12.61% of people)

Paragon 50-100

1. Demon Hunter (most popular build used by 1.77% of people)
2. Witch Doctor (most popular build used by 4.27% of people)
3. Wizard (most popular build used by 8.46% of people)
4. Barbarian (most popular build used by 9.87% of people)
5. Monk (most popular build used by 11.76% of people)

So on average the Demon Hunter is the most diverse class closely followed by the Witch Doctor.
The least diversity is found in Barbarians and Monks.


Perhaps what the stats above show, regarding the demon hunter, is that, although he seems to have more diversity and is fun to play, the demon hunter is not effective at higher MP levels. So, for levels 0 - 49 people tend to play in lower MP levels and as they get better gear they venture into higher MP levels, only to be crushed by the fact that the demon hunter is not able to kill as fast and effectively as the other classes and dies a lot in comparison.

Hence another hero gets rolled, most likely a barb or a monk, because they can handle higher MP levels with more survivability and faster killing speed.

After all, most people leveling want to get to paragon 100 asap.
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[quote]
However, do be careful who you listen to about build diversity. Some people will declare there to be no build diversity because you can't just pick any random set of skills and do as well as a carefully-constructed build. These people are not smart. A good build requires a way to survive, a way to deal damage, and a way to regenerate resources. Build diversity comes when we have many different ways to do each of these individual things, where some survival skills may work better with some damage skills. It's all about being able to tinker with your build.


Zoid's remark is excellent. The biggest limiting factor in the game is that which players place on themselves. Check out my DH and see how cookie cutter he is. ;)

That said, the skills do need balancing, it's just not the wasteland that people make it out to be.
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Myself I could care less if someone has an OP setup. I play the game for myself and fun, it doesn't bother me one bit.

This all reminds me of how children act.

You all have a great time playing the game.
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You can't have everything. Look at my monk right now. My goal is to craft an amulet and bracers with AR. once i do that i will get an innas chest for the 4 piece bonus.

Getting the 4 piece bonus will let me bell spam AND perpetually keep sweeping wind at full stacks w.o having to worry about getting another hit.

That kind of thing is more of what this game needs.

Edit: usually run healing mantra with circular breathing, so thats where i get 5 spirit/sec
Edited by oneNil#1830 on 7/2/2013 11:09 PM PDT
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07/01/2013 05:07 PMPosted by blackjack
Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance.

Perhaps this will shed some light, not so much in terms of balance and the lackthereof, but otherwise in terms of diversity:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377319605
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You can't have everything. Look at my monk right now. My goal is to craft an amulet and bracers with AR. once i do that i will get an innas chest for the 4 piece bonus.

Getting the 4 piece bonus will let me bell spam AND perpetually keep sweeping wind at full stacks w.o having to worry about getting another hit.

That kind of thing is more of what this game needs.

Edit: usually run healing mantra with circular breathing, so thats where i get 5 spirit/sec


Thats it! But it works only with like 5-10% of all skill assortment. Maybe more of skills would work that way - influence and work with others to raise different build, but first step is to regulate skills damage and resources all time. It can't be that hard, just start with skills that are weakest at damage or cooldown is unacceptable long.
Edited by Mih#1536 on 7/2/2013 11:43 PM PDT
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Here are links to my builds:

Permafreeze - http://d3up.com/b/725199 | Yes the WD can permafreeze. This build uses zero dogs as an infinate mana generator. Also abusable with other high cost spells switching the mainhand and acid cloud.


ya...you didnt come up with the proc doc, its nearly as old as this game..and you dont need dogs for infinite mana lol...
Edited by Drippy#1932 on 7/2/2013 11:49 PM PDT
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Sorry, did not read past page 2, 10 pages are too much to go through.

My opinion is that there is good build variety, for the players that care. If you just google "Best wiz build" you will come up with the CMWW build. My personal experience is with the wizard, so I can testify that there are at least 4 builds that are viable and I have tried:

1) CMWW (I don't like this build)
2) Melee (Blades& Sleet Storm, many variations): I can play up to MP8-9 multiplayer. With better gear it would be effective is MP10 as well
3) Archon. The more dps the better, I can play single up to MP7-8
4) Raining Meteors (many variation too). I can play up to MP8 multi.

Also, there are infinite disintegration builds, blizzrd builds, etc.

I'd also like to link 4 monk builds, viable for MP8-9 multiplayer games. I've played with all of them very effectively in multiplayer games:
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Bombus-2506/hero/22642180
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/adamII-2489/hero/2009364
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Enno-2357/hero/6518916
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Hurricane-2286/hero/15895313
See how different each build and gear sets are.

Finally, I'd like to say that in multiplayer games the playstyle changes. It is much better to use a buff that makes enemies take 20% more damage from all team members, than a personal buff of 25% to your DPS only. So, builds should be modified for teamplay to be even more effective. The features to increase diversity are already there, players must learn about them, understand how they work, use their brain and come up with good and fun builds.

Any new tweaking to less used skills is welcomed though, since it would increase the diversity even more.
Edited by NYARLATHOTEP#2116 on 7/3/2013 12:09 AM PDT
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