Diablo® III

Game punishes you for being different.

This skill / stat system is not working at all. Especially with monster power. The game is just too shallow

- No character customization outside of gear
- No elemental effects
- No Monster resistances
- Very little and in many cases no skill progression

These things alone make for a very bad combination. Even if they kept the currnet rune system but left a way to really develop skills / place your own stats and make your character specialized.

I still remember back in d2. I never went with the cookie cutter builds. I remember putting more stats or choosing not to lvl up a skill so I could get more mana / save mana cost at the expense of loosing some damage or hp or whatever else. Game lacks depth plain and simple. Lack of build diversity is just another symptom.
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Posts: 4,487
07/01/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Grimiku
Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


I stopped playing Diablo 3 when they nerfed the Demon Hunter - Shuriken Cloud/Gas Grenade - Life Stealing build. I bought items specifically for that build and then they nerfed it, leaving less viable builds. As soon as someone finds an alternative build that works, it's nerfed.
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I stopped playing Diablo 3 when they nerfed the Demon Hunter - Shuriken Cloud/Gas Grenade - Life Stealing build. I bought items specifically for that build and then they nerfed it, leaving less viable builds. As soon as someone finds an alternative build that works, it's nerfed.


Ahh.. A fellow TankDH..

If you'd read most or many of the threads then, you would've known who I am ;)

ANYWAYS.. Yeah.. they pretty much killed that build.

Anyways.. I urge people to try out DHs.. We have some diversity coming in on our Class Specific Forum.

There are fun builds and MP10 VIABLE(note, VIABLE) builds. There's the standard RF, Spike-Bola too.
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Posts: 4,487
Ahh.. A fellow TankDH..

If you'd read most or many of the threads then, you would've known who I am ;)

ANYWAYS.. Yeah.. they pretty much killed that build.


It's annoying that they keep killing builds for no apparent reason. I enjoyed finding gear for multiple builds so I could perform different roles for different situations. All the fun is being sucked out of the game.
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"Maybe more of skills would work that way - influence and work with others to raise different build, but first step is to regulate skills damage and resources all time. It can't be that hard, just start with skills that are weakest at damage or cooldown is unacceptable long."

For example : I set following skill set: acid cloud, locust swarm - devouring swarm (adds mana for each target), grasp. And what we got: When I enetr into crowd of mobs it works great - first grasp in a center, than spam acid cloud together with swarm witch instantly regenerate mana until all is laid down. BUT :
1. that works only with huge mobs crowd, otherwise swarm cannot infect enough mobs and bring mana.
2. Grasp does almost none damage.
3. Anyway cost of AC and DS is too high or mana bonus from devouring swarm too low.

That would be fine build if just those cost were regulated. I believe it may take like a couple of tries to make this balanced. Let it be a few hours of one develeper work. I cant't believe it just can't happen. Is there any policy stops you to do it. Instead of minimal but frequent balancing, you make one skill 50-100% buffed or nerfed every second patch. What researches are behind that? Or maybe such changes deals with heavy technical problems :)
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Yeah Mih (and everyone), I agree.

I don't see what the real problem is with just equalizing the damage per resource point spent per unit time for all skills for each class within +/- 5%, if not just even exactly equal. Then adjust based on the ability to hit multiple targets through splash/cleave, and for the risk/reward ratio based on range (CoB good example, as it forces you to be in melee range).

Maybe more importantly would be to AT LEAST do this for the RUNES within each skill. Far too many runes that are just un-usable, and way out of balance with the 'special' ability that gives each rune a 'reason' to exist.

I will admit that some skills/runes are okay to basically only have a place at low levels while leveling, but with how fast that goes these days, that approach is still a bit of a waste.

(I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of great examples out there. I'll just pick one - Plague of Toads: Toad of Hugeness!! I mean, it's so cool, but come on please? Can't even swallow an elite, right? And that piece of trash can't be damaged by outer attacks whilst in the toad? THEN compare that to Jinx or Mass Confusion?! It may as well be there as a challenge to handicap yourself with a wasted talent at 60, or as a test to see very quickly if someone you're playing with is just terrible).

Fun game, passionate team and company behind it, but some of the results are just a bit silly :) I get all into this stuff, but I guess it is just a game right...
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07/03/2013 08:39 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
- In D3, there is little point in using sub-par performance builds when you can switch to the most optimal in only a few mouse clicks away.


Have you ever played any build just for the fun of it.


I have, and through the use of AH which takes few mins to buy desired (low rolls) items and the ability to change skills so easily, I can play all of DH's gameplay styles in one hour.
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This is your quote, basically saying that farming is alpha and omega in the "end game" and leveling a character is nothing more than an obsticle before "the grind".. There are other things that should be important in the end, most of all if I can even play it in Inferno.. Don't care how "efficient" my build is to farm with as long as it is fun to create, and play him... But in D3 I cant even "create" a character since we are all the same..

The whole issue with D3 is that there is nothing to do, but to "farm the most efficient way" since everything is automated on your character.. Very much what Soulseeker78 explained earlier so feel that you are making us go in circles.. Maybe it's because you are the Spike gamer who enjoy it this way?


I was talking about two facts, which I see I need to make it clear to you buy stating the games involve. Even though I should not have to do that. Maybe I need to write five page plus posts in order to get my post across. Maybe I need to write as if I am talking to a computer instead of a person.

Builds and efficiency in all games there will always be builds that are super efficient in farming. Even ones that are miles ahead of others. This happens all of the time, the only way around it IMO would be to homogenize all abilities of all classes. Doing that would be boring to say the least.

Farming: Tell me what else is there to do in Diablo 3 but farming. I want to know what else is there do, is there some secret thing that I am not aware of that is a special thing to do other than farm. I cannot think of anything else in this game to do but farm. Some would say brawling would be fine. But even that would only be fun for a little while.

Also in that quote I did not say that farming should be the only thing to do. But alas in this game that right Diablo 3, D3, D3, D3, just in case you did not hear it right the first time is farming. Did I make it that way? Of course not, that is unless you think that I am Jay incognito using a different battle tag which I would not do.

I know that you are not used to playing without points to spend, but me I can live without them. I can choose many different builds that are for fun. Trust me each one has it's weaknesses and strengths just like all builds do.

Finally even you say that there is nothing else to do but to farm. So I could say the same about you that you think that farming should be the only thing to do at endgame. Would you please stop using the tired old argument if you do not want me to use it on you.

07/03/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Psychonaut
Here I say that not all builds should be viable otherwise i can't make a mistake in the first place..


1. Storm Armor
2. Energy Armor
3. Ice Armor
4. Familar
5. Magic Weapon
6. Magic Missile.

Passives whatever you like. Tell me how far it will go in MPs solo, I will wait for a response. Show me where the game would give you a handicap to allow such a build to really shine.


For some strange reason you did not want to touch my reply that I quoted a part of. What is wrong do you know that the above wizard build would not work at all. If so then you know that not all builds will work.

What I think that the real problem is that there are players that wanted a crap ton of builds that would be failures and only a small handful that would be able to clear inferno MP0. Then add in the permanence of D2. Then they would intentionally gimp their characters. Go into coop and say since I have a bad build and cannot respec without rerolling, would you carry me to the phat loot.

But since you know that all it takes to fix a bad build is an instant respec. You know that you cannot get away with it.
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Talking about different, look at me: A dual wilder, non Manticore/DML, Bola Shot and Rapid Fire Demon Hunter. Talk about suffering.

Even tho my DH is "cool", that's about it. I chose to try different build/gear, and paid heavily in DPS and survivability.

Most of the issues have already being discussed A LOT in other threads, like the Manticore and DML being ABSURDLY overpowered to even consider other gear.

DML also killed dual wielding for DH, since you only gain a measly 15% IAS for DW, while a DML gives you 20%, gives you CC, DEX and VIT, not to mention skill specific bonus.

Even tho all this issues are obvious and have been discussed in SEVERAL topics, Blizzard insists on stating that the DH is fine the way it is, or just ignores OBVIOUS problems, like the problem with DH dual wielding. We NEVER got a blue response on ANY of our threads about it.
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Just wanted to say that I don't feel there is a problem with CoB being so strong, or 0dogs, or (to a lesser extent) Zombie Bears - the problem is, CoB and Zombie Bears are just WAY STRONGER than EVERY other skill! My brother and I tried every other one - but the damage they deal is just abysmal. They're so unsatisfyingly weak! I mean, why is it that CoB does 500-1000%, but there's not a single other skill that does 500%, other than Zombie Bears? Just raise the damage of the other skills..

I think that the level of power that CoB is at right now is just fine. It's strong, very strong, but not broken. That level of power is exactly where the other builds should be - it should MOSTLY be a choice of "which skill is coolest?" There's no problem with some builds being SLIGHTLY more efficent, but as has been mentioned in this thread multiple times, most skills are horrific - and in most cases, it's literally just the numbers!!!

160% vs 500-1000%... hmmmmm.......
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really, how about you keep buffing all skills that aren't used until they hit a use rate of at least 10-20%

a) buff the proc rate, don't make lifesteal and thus dps the sole measure of survival (I mean thats the only reason COB works).

b) buff the resource cost, generation of resources

c) then buff dps


This is spot on. They nerfed the DHs so hard only a select few skills are useable to be efficent.

Reset all the skills back to the way it was on release and start over now that we have MP10 and inferno the way it is. then see what everyone uses for 2-3 months, then start tweeking things back to how they are now on certain skills. eventually making it to where no matter what skill setup you use, it will be effective with the right gear.
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


zombie bears is still better, l2p
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Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


ask this in the wizard forum.

Youll be in for a ride.


Exaclty, Im a wizard Oh wait I can only play two builds in MP playing, Guess what builds, Oh wait a sec, you got it in your mind, :D
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07/01/2013 05:07 PMPosted by blackjack
Build diversity is joke in this game.

What build diversity? Build diversity was removed from the game when they decided that all damage would be based on your items.
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Inferno was nerfed to the point where it is not any harder now than D2 hell.

Bring back immunities that will force people to balance their skills.
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@OP your so right! I feel like I'm really being punished for not having a cookie cutter build.....I want something fun powerful Unique....I don't mind working for it. There's just nothing to work towards besides very small expensive upgrades........I don't rmah so......I don't get the experience that blizzard intends........
Edited by Liberty#1232 on 7/4/2013 3:13 AM PDT
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Not only is it a joke, Blizzard seems to be mostly unaware at just how bad class balance is in this game. I dare say it needs as much or more work than itemization. It could be SO MUCH BETTER. There is literally almost no practical use for 75%+ skills/runes in this game. There is always a FAR superior ability.

I talked a lot about this in my Salvation of Diablo 3 post and I strongly recommend you check it out if you haven't.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170?page=1

Bottom line: Class/build diversity is absolutely horrible and I've seen very few steps in the right direction and quite a few in the wrong since release. Most skills are bad, boring or too simple, or all three. This is VERY bad! Blizz needs to take a step back and look at it objectively. Class balance needs a major overhaul on every class. If you want to know exactly why, check out the thread I linked and look in the class/build diversity section.
Edited by Gosu#1173 on 7/4/2013 3:22 AM PDT
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copy/pasted my response from a similar thread;

The variable in this game is the gear, the problem though is that the only thing that really impacts our skills is our raw DPS output. This results in "DPS" stats such as Crit, Main Stat and IAS taking absolute precedence over anything else.

What we need is interesting game-changing stats that actually enable builds by fundamentally changing how skills function. An example of this would be a legendary item for witch doctor's that triples the amount of minions that pet spells can summon. It's the equivalent of attributing skill points to make skills more powerful and in turn allows the character to spec a build based on them.

This is one prominent example of this already existing in the game with Witch Doctor's and that is with the Zero Dog build. It completely relies on a synergy of passives in conjunction with "Reduced cooldown.." and pick-up radius stats. The vast majority of other endgame builds simply rely on resource generation and raw DPS.

TL;DR: Without a skill tree, gear stats are our equivalent of allocating points to strengthen skills. What we need are properties that enable builds by directly affecting skills. And by all indications this what we will be getting with "Loot 2.0". Rejoice (patiently). :P
Edited by DamienJohn#1321 on 7/4/2013 4:39 AM PDT
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