Diablo® III

Game punishes you for being different.

Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


0dogs is. Although the gear is highly prohibitive (cost) and really it's the same exact play mechanic as bats, you stay in one spot and tank, instead of channeling you're casting 2 skills, but it's tank/boom/tank/boom -no mobility, no efficiency...the main reason I don't play my WD anymore. Yes, you can use jaunt almost infinitely, but it's still not very fun (IMO) to bounce between large groups just to stand still.

Other classes do not suffer from this mechanic, archon does stay immobile for a decent chunk of time but you have 2 (or 3) other useful skills to cast, punch to break mob attacks, explode to clear stragglers near you, and then your alt skill if you're not using improved archon. It's a much more dynamic limited mobility build. If a monk specializes in WOL TR can be used, cyclone strike, etc. lots of other skills to throw in the mix. Barb-HoTA, WW, sprint, etc. DH-Rapid Fire, vault, strafe, evasive fire.

There is a distinct balance with every other class as far as being able to pause, deal massive damage, get away/engage new enemies quickly....poor WD :(
Edited by runit3#1931 on 7/2/2013 7:28 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8285
07/02/2013 07:27 AMPosted by JaqenHghar
I feel your pain but good luck with that. It takes them a minimum of 6 hours a week just to maintain servers. Do you really expect them to invest time in statistical data that is offered elsewhere on the net?


Message from Hell: Diablo's future
Book of Tyreal
Comunity Commentary
If you could have any monster Affix
The list goes on.... but MOST IMPORTANTLY

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/9691895/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=launcher&utm_campaign=d3&utm_content=community-textlink
TO HELL AND BACK

So actually.... instead of investing so much time in PR crap just to make themselves look half way decent.... Yes I kind of actually do expect them to invest time into their own game, see the major flaws in it, the community complains/concerns, and actually put their collective noggins together to actually come up with a meaningful fix rather than what they've accomplished thus far.

Hell PvP is still an absolute mess you'd figure spending this much time keeping their butt cheeks clean they'd actually think for once to wipe in between.

EDIT: Also add a rolls like in the console. Or is that ability console exclusive too?
Edited by ODurren#1683 on 7/2/2013 7:34 AM PDT
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JaqenHghar
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Simply tweaking some numbers on a couple of skills ain't going to be enough to fix the underlying problem - we are all the same...
Since every wiz and every baba is identical every individual skill in this system has to be "balanced" in order to create diverce builds.. And that is just not an ARPG design, but a MMO...
Like some guy said - D2 overcame this by giving skill points so we could choose what skill we wanted to kick !@#...
In D3's LVL - Unlock system Blizz does that for us and before the core system in this game is fixed to give choices in our build it will always be this "one build will rule them all"

It is obvious that the devs of this game only knows how to make MMOs...

Holy s^^t! Someone who actually reads all the postings! +1

"Some guy", hmmm, maybe that's what I'll name my next barb, LOL! ;-)


Hehe sry for the name - or lack of same (didn't expect anyone to read ;) )

I follow these threads to see if Blizz is acually aware of the fact that they are trying to make an ARPG based on a MMO system.. Many of the problems in D3 are based on the design of only needing one charater per class... And the Paragon System is a big symptom of that!
Such a big gamehouse as Blizz should atleast have their genres in order so its quite entertaining (and very disparing and destructive for the Diablo title) to see them trying to please all..
Let the MMO players have WOW and let the ARPG players have Diablo is my simply advise.. Many problems in D3 can be solved if Blizz realise this..
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there are NO true custom builds.

This isnt a true sequel to Diablo II due to the fact that the game has CLEARLY been designed to be World of Warcraft user friendly. Ultimately the game will not live long enough to be noteworthy in the series unless steps are made to right all of the wrongs that Mr. Wilson committed. I do respect the IDEA of the changes that were made, i do not however agree with them. Nor does 99% of the player base.

Now to be clear. i do not hate the game. i'm just not pleased with the direction it was taken.
I still play every now and then but wish for something better constantly.

Things EVERY PLAYER WANTS:

-Assignable Stats
-Proper Skill tree System
-NO RMAH
-8 player games
Among others i would imagine.

Now talking about the Build Diversity..

I believe the ONLY way to fix all of the negative feedback is to completely rework the system we currently have in place. I believe that would not be as difficult as many would suggest it to be as i could also believe such a system (that of D2) was at some point a part of the build for Diablo 3 and then discarded for the current design for some reason.
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I'd have to STRONGLY dissagree. My hardcore DH build is nothing like anything I've ever seen anyone else running.... and its devastating I came up with this build 100% on my own and people tell me all the time that my build is awesome I have 4-5 friends that have copied it. Not only that now i see the items i use are SOOO expensive now on the AH. Before i did this build the gear was dirt cheap cause most people thought that the items im using are trash. and I slapped my dh together for next to nothing and now shes worth over a bill.

I paid roughly 400m total for my gear over a VERY long time.... My DH does 840k-1.1m DPS in rapid fire cause of tals 3% fire skill bonus added over 100k dps to rapid fire bombardment (because its fire) It kills elites in 2-3 seconds on mp4 or lower... This isnt a cookie cutter AT ALL... look it up you wont find it... I think the biggest problem is people confusing items like tals as wiz only or WD only and its these peices that are being ignored for classes they are the most powerful for.
Edited by LastRights#1958 on 7/2/2013 8:04 AM PDT
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Maybe I'm crazy but to me one point of build diversity is to take a non-cookie cutter build and prove it can be viable.

Which means you may do less DPS overall or clear a bit slower but you're still having fun and proving other skills can work too.

There will always be some sort of "optimal build" the challenge is to find others which are almost as good.

I've never played cookie cutter and I've gotten very far. I see many who do similar to be honest.
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Maybe I'm crazy but to me one point of build diversity is to take a non-cookie cutter build and prove it can be viable.

Which means you may do less DPS overall or clear a bit slower but you're still having fun and proving other skills can work too.

There will always be some sort of "optimal build" the challenge is to find others which are almost as good.

I've never played cookie cutter and I've gotten very far. I see many who do similar to be honest.


DING DING DING WINNER!!!^^^^^^^^

I think he nailed it with this post.
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I think that Bliz can have items that would improve the skills that need work

Builds that work!
Barbarian-whirlwind, hammer of the ancients, and the insanity build for DE farming.
Builds that need work Slam, throwing, call of the ancients.

Demon Hunters- Rapid Fire, spike trap, Cluster arrows and Bola build.
builds that need work Strafe, Fan, and elemental arrow

Monk-Cyclone, Palm, and Bell
builds that need work tempest

Witch Doctor-firebats, zombie bears, and zero dogs
builds that need work pets

Wizards- archon, meteor and cm
builds that need work disintegrating,
Edited by Angel#11647 on 7/2/2013 8:45 AM PDT
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?

Plague bats is very good as well, tradeoff some damage for a lot of utility. Zombie Bears works ok but really falls short due to the higher mana cost.

There are an awful lot of skills that are just plain terrible though. Case in point for Witch Doctors: primary skills deal atrociously low damage AND still cost mana. Not a lot, but enough so that you can't really run a build with Pierce the Veil intending to spam primaries between mana dumps.

Mostly it's simply a lack of damage. There are a lot of cool utility spells, but they just fall so short in the DPS department. Haunt is a great example here, less than 100% weapon damage per second? That's barely noticeable.

However, do be careful who you listen to about build diversity. Some people will declare there to be no build diversity because you can't just pick any random set of skills and do as well as a carefully-constructed build. These people are not smart. A good build requires a way to survive, a way to deal damage, and a way to regenerate resources. Build diversity comes when we have many different ways to do each of these individual things, where some survival skills may work better with some damage skills. It's all about being able to tinker with your build.
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Blizzard reps are constantly spewing build diversity this, and build diversity that. it's usually the goto line for a nerf of any sort; "we're trying to promote build diversity, so we nerfed the crap out of your favorite build, and just made you lose millions of gold because since your toon is no longer relevant, neither is his gear......SORRY". The OP hit the nail on the head, build diversity in this game is a joke. There are 2 key things in this game that prevent people from creating diverse builds. 1) No Stat Allocation. This is a big, BIG downfall with the game, that most people wish would just be put in already in some way shape or form. It was literally the equivalent of ripping the heart clean out of the game. 2) Unwarranted, Unexpected, Costly Nerfs. The prime example I can give for this, which actually convinced me to not even bother playing any other classes afterwards, was when the absolute most DIVERSE class in the game, the DH Facetank class, was nerfed so rediculously badly that all gear was rendered useless....and I mean USELESS, 30m pieces dropped to 200k, etc.

Devs need to realise that players don't concider 1-2 different runes to be a different build. Running a WW/Rend build on a barb, and changing Overpower:Killing Spree to Overpower:Crushing Advance, is not concidered a new build, or using Warcry instead of Overpower, or vice versa. Because of this, each class has 1-3 viable base builds, with very, VERY minor variations. These variations only change for the most part, when you can give up a defensive skill/rune for an offensive....aside from that, the playstyle of the class remains untouched, and you just get to kill a little faster.

Unless you're willing to allow the player to allocate their own stat points to acheive certain breakpoints that will allow them to utilise skills that would otherwise be rendered useless (this can be acheived by simply allowing to re-spec stats at plvl 100), stop saying that Build Diversity is a big topic. Until we can make builds that are functional, that most people wouldn't even touch (good example would be an Enchantress from D2, which required very specific stat allocation to use) than there's no such thing as build diversity.

The biggest problem now is the fact that, the big change that needs to be made (stat allocation) is actually POINTLESS, because they took stat requirements away from items....so with Stat allocation rendered moot, and skill builds concidered a joke (no offense, but you should have stuck with the oldschool skill trrees. That was a "shoot yourself in the foot" situation) build diversity cannot, and will not exist in the way that Blizzard Devs want/expect it to.

In summation, can we please stop talking about build diversity, because everytime it's brought up, it just pisses people off lol.
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There will always be one build that is the strongest. It is up to you to decide whether you want to be the strongest and get bored or prefer to have fun and not be the strongest.

07/01/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Hardcore
Ironically Diablo 2 the game Jay Wilson loved to bad mouth every chance he got has more build diversity than this game.

[x] Nostalgia goggles.
Edited by vexorian#1817 on 7/2/2013 9:03 AM PDT
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Maybe I'm crazy but to me one point of build diversity is to take a non-cookie cutter build and prove it can be viable.Which means you may do less DPS overall or clear a bit slower but you're still having fun and proving other skills can work too.There will always be some sort of "optimal build" the challenge is to find others which are almost as good.I've never played cookie cutter and I've gotten very far. I see many who do similar to be honest.


GJ saved me some typing!!
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Although I agree that build diversity could be improved, in my experience it seems that players far too often seek builds that have been 'proven' to be effective. (e.g.. player searches internet for 'best witchdoctor build" and finds more 'bat builds' than anything else--resulting in player making a bat buld wd.)

However, also in my experience, experimenting with the many skills each class has can yield a very unique and satisfying gaming experience that is based on 'being different.' I have felt this way specifically regarding use of monk skills like dashing strike--not as commonly used in the 'cookie cutter' monk builds--and more recently, with my Wizard build

(http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SkillBilly-1558/hero/14165120)

based on sleet storm and blizzard that is more than viable at Inferno mp10--including a whole skill set and some gear choices that vary greatly from the ad nauseum claim of dominance of CM freeze wiz builds and the widely accepted alternative Archon build.

My point, there are viable builds--even at mp10--other than those labeled as 'cookie cutter'--some of which may have not even been discovered due to players succumbing to what has been shown to be effective.
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My opinion for ranged class

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9362896564

@Blackjack
Cheer for ur topic.

From one that get punishes for being different as WD and DH player.
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Sure not all the skills can be equal but if you don't pick exactly the cookie cutter build of the moment you simply suffer in terms of performance. In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage (cloud of bats) for 66 mana and not expect every single WD to jump on it?

I'm sick of trying to have a different kind of build, im sick of being punished for not wanting the same build as everyone else.

Build diversity is joke in this game.


Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


Are you even serious? This concern is as old as Diablo 3 is (mid 2012), your/devs answer to "build diversity" was just to flip around with some numbers (changed damage a from xxx% to xxxx%, etc.) Its just a broken skilldesign and has nothing to do with diablo anymore, whoever created that didn't play D1 or D2 for more than 10 hours.

Reading this, acting like you guys care about it, makes me mad really

And where is arena pvp even? man really.
Edited by Odin#1507 on 7/2/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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NO builds come close.
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