Diablo® III

Game punishes you for being different.

I laugh everytime one of these threads come up. In virtually every game (incl d2), there's a cookie cutter build/skillset. No matter how you twist it, there will always be one that is better than the rest. in every single game. For some reason, d3 playerbase expects all skills to be perfectly balanced and useful. IMO, it's just another item people whine about on these forums.

All classes have plenty of viable builds, especially when you consider the different MP levels available to play. For ex:
Monks can run TR for low-mid MPs, or run SW or Bells at higher MP.
Barbs can run Rend or WW for low mp (or high MP trash), and HOTA for high mp elites.
WDs can run AC for low mps, bears for low-high MPs and 0dog/COB for mid-high MPs.
Wiz can run archon for low-mid MPs, hybrid builds (for ex ruleeric) for mid mps, and different variations of CM (SNS/sleetstorm) for mid-high MPs
DHs can run strafe/multi/BL for low-mid MPs, and spikes or RF for mid-high MPs.

Quit expecting the game to be perfect. Nothing in life is.
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My major problem with the game CURRENTLY is lack of choice as well. Skills I feel are mandatory for specific classes I.E. mantra of conviction/wrath/archon/shadow power gloom/ ETC ETC ETC... Some REALLY outshine others and its just silly if you pick those skills that aren't cookie cutter. Some added items that could really cater to certain skills would be really cool! Or adding choices to my character. Also as a side note of great importance I feel like that we don't get enough good items for our play time, sure you can get lucky and find something amazing but I'm talking about a side items/something that we would be able to fill in while we hunt for treasure. Example

Brawler- 30% more dmg if surrounded by 3 or more enemies within 8 yards.

(Prime Trinket)- increases the range of brawler by 10 yards

Stuff that can really change the gameplay of certain skills and abilities is what a lot of us are looking for. Everything feels so linear. Not being able to CHOOSE which games we want to join with people. You know how many people I met by trading with people back in d2? A lot, Now there is little to no interaction between players via the AH destroying what made a game so rich in commerce. Anyways I hope my voice is heard among the screaming voices and that you at least take something of what I have written.
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I use Plague Bats on my WD, not CoB.

Ive gone from playing consistently nearly everyday to playing maybe once a week now :(

When is this expansion out? Until then, Skyrim has me.
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07/02/2013 11:53 AMPosted by DuckOfDeath
Skill trees and allocating points would not solve the problem. 20 points in an OP skill will still be better than 20 points in a crappy skill. Its the skills themselves that need to be balanced to be as effective as the next skill. That is what made the skills in D2 better. Not the fact that they were in skill trees with points. No one ever dumped points into a crappy skill and thought it made it worth using over the good skills with the same amount of points.


Sure, but the crap skill was still viable in PvM (a Frenzy baba was the best for one target monsters, but I still leveled a new char to play a Concentrate (if you know what I mean hehe) and it created a much bigger need for different items.. And made leveling a new character exiting because you was eager to know the end result of your planning..

Not only that, but it also defined what the character was (something many ARPG players love, and basically what defines a ARPG in the first place)..

If D3 had the same hardcoded system, but made a lot more of the skills viable to PvM (and PvP?) then I dont think we would have been in the same situation today (a situation where you can choose between all skills in the end game, making strategizing your character progress redundant and end gear all that matters).
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The Need for more Synergy btw the skills.

If a player are using particular, a new effect is introduce.

Better reward system.

When you farm for 1000+ hours of the same thing, with all crap drops. The game will suck no matter what it is.
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I'm not having this problem. Granted I don't do hardcore or MP, but still I like shifting around with my builds and doing my "own" thing.

I'm finding that each person has a somewhat unique and different play style. What build works for one person may or may not work for another. My builds vary from time to time as I like to try out different things, but they are also usually different than other players. The "builds" I see may players go with don't work for me. And I'm sure it's vice/versa.

There are certain builds that work best in some areas, but not all areas, and even then I will find a skill that differs but that works better for my personal play style.

My only experience with lvl 60 is Monk at this point, Wizard will hit 60 soon and I've just started a DH. Again I haven't done MP, I play solo and don't do hardcore, so I may not qualify for input, but I wanted to input my 2 cents anyway. lol
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Other way to add build diversity:

Change skills granted by items:

1. Make them significant in damage/effect
2. Make them proc on click
3. Asssign to keys 6; 7; 8; 9; 0
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07/02/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Psychonaut
Skill trees and allocating points would not solve the problem. 20 points in an OP skill will still be better than 20 points in a crappy skill. Its the skills themselves that need to be balanced to be as effective as the next skill. That is what made the skills in D2 better. Not the fact that they were in skill trees with points. No one ever dumped points into a crappy skill and thought it made it worth using over the good skills with the same amount of points.


Sure, but the crap skill was still viable in PvM (a Frenzy baba was the best for one target monsters, but I still leveled a new char to play a Concentrate (if you know what I mean hehe) and it created a much bigger need for different items.. And made leveling a new character exiting because you was eager to know the end result of your planning..

Not only that, but it also defined what the character was (something many ARPG players love, and basically what defines a ARPG in the first place)..

If D3 had the same hardcoded system, but made a lot more of the skills viable to PvM (and PvP?) then I dont think we would have been in the same situation today (a situation where you can choose between all skills in the end game, making strategizing your character progress redundant and end gear all that matters).


The only thing hard coding characters does is require more space. In D2 you could make unlimited alts because you needed to be able to make a javazon and a burizazon and a pvp zon etc etc. In D3 they can limit you to 10 slots (5 hardcore and 5 normal) because they dont have to store each build seperately. Thats the only thing that really changes. Leveling is nothing but a grind that most people didnt look forward to and it really sucked when you made a mistake in the build and had to start over. In fact I believe the D3 system promotes trying new builds because you dont have to invest as much in trying it out.
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I do find that pointing at WD is funny. WD has a wide variety of builds. CoB is the flavor of the month and only has so many people with it cause its new. I actually find it not the most efficient, but it is one of the many WD builds that work well.

And to the comment of having more diversity on D2......seriously? Smiters was like 99% of paladins in pvp and by far had an edge. For PvE almost everybody was a hammerdin. And it is similar for most other classes as well.

The problem isn't in the skills, the problem is in that the gear to make other skills efficient is not present in this game (or at least easily accessible).
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the problems are everywhere from the depth of each skill to number of skills allowed to be used in combat during real-time. They sync and synergize together very poorly.

All because of one single person thought it was that's how you generate fun for players.
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90 Tauren Druid
7500
Other way to add build diversity:

Change skills granted by items:

I'd like to see an item stat that would increase proc rates.
My electric wizard would be awesome if http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/wizard/passive/paralysis could ACTUALLY proc 8% of the time.
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I hope a CM can read this, here is my thought after 1000 hours of gameplay,

Its not bad that a class have a skill that has the best perfomance, the problem comes when it has the best performance at EVERYTHING, bosses fights, normal mob farming, pvp, power levelling. and so on.

Its ok to have a skill that excels at something, its not ok if they excel at everything, I suggest blizzard to develope other skills in a way that they outperfom the others in atleast 1 different situation ( AT LEAST 1 situation when they are better than others, some skills dont even have that attribute).

In example a skill that damages elites or bosses even more than other normal skills, useful for ubbers but useless for farming. A skill that gives a lot of movement speed while dealing low damage around perfect for farming weak enemies but not against elites/bosses etc.

Thats the true form of variety one in wich you always aim for the best performance, BUT achieving that with several skill options according to your game session goals.
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Can someone please explain the skill runes that just add seconds to damage over time.

If a skill does x dam over 8 seconds. And the rune says 'increases seconds to 10' ... does this mean the same amount of damage is done but over a longer period of time ... so now with the rune it does x dam over 10 secs...

or is the damage increased by x/8 for every second applied?

The description reads to me like the same damage is done over a longer period of time, and makes me wonder who would ever choose this rune.
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07/02/2013 11:45 AMPosted by Psychonaut
I wanted to jump in and thank everyone for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I hope it keeps going. There are some great conversations here, and very interesting to read. I also want to make sure you know that I've been compiling notes based on your feedback, and look forward to passing it along.


No pain; no gain.

I hope you guys wouldn't filter out the bad critiques. The devs need them to grow to become better devs, to be honest.
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Probably wall of text is coming.

Sure, there are builds and skill combinations in this game that are way better than the others and that fact needs to be changed by either nerfing overpowered skills/loot combinations or buffing up others. But that's one problem. The other one are you guys.

I have never even once thought of Diablo players to be creative or subtle.If any of you hear about the best build, you will all go into it without thinking. You don't try to discover things by yourself, you don't try other combinations, you don't try to balance between fun and usefulness of your characters' builds. Why would you do that? For fun? But who's playing games for fun nowadays? I get an impression that they are being played just for wasting time.

If there is one thing that this game provides much more than Diablo II, it is opportunity to experiment on different builds, skill combinations or so on. Many of you, probably 99%, consider such skills as Hydra with Mammoth Hydra rune as a trash. Well, it deals 74% weapon damage, attacks slowly and generally seems less useful than other runes. Well, it's probably because of the damage. 74% is not too much, but how about 148%, 222%, 296%? By casting it multiple times with the right frequency (placing is crucial, too) you can make the Hydra attack 3 or 4 times as fast it normally would. And damage it's flame deals stacks, making it quite formidable. While I was beating the Inferno on MP3 first time with my Wizard, this skill saved my butt plenty of times (Belial, damage-reflecting elites etc.). I didn't need Streamers, need to read builds on the internet or anything. All it took me to realize the potential of this skill is my own experiments and usage of internal organ called brain.

I firmly believe that there is more examples of such skills.

Games are form of entertaiment. Games are played for fun. So, if you are complaining about lack of diversity or something like that, why don't you experiment? Sure, your character will probably loose some of it's power, but there is no point of having god-like character that can't even test it's strength, because overpowered build provides no difficulty at all. Without difficulty or challenges, there is no fun in playing. In short, you are stripping your gaming experience from fun.

What I just said is an opinion, and it's not directed towards anyone in particular here. Just a general statement.

Now, all what I said doesn't change the fact thet this game has some mechanics and skills that seriously needs attention (Hello, Blues!). For instance, Demon Hunter's Impale is a joke. 265% weapon damage for a single target, costs 25 hatred, is used by character that is quite vournable. Well, Barbarian has Hammer of The Ancients, 325% weapon damage, area of effect, costs 20 fury (and it increases CC).... Other broken thing is that only maxing CC/CD is the way to go to maximize your DPS. Attack speed was nerfed almost right away, but overpowered CC/CD is OK? That is absurd.

If we are to have diversity, there must be many viable choices. Regarding both skills and loot.
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I laugh at threads like this one...Inferno has been nerfed several times since launch (and rightly so)...just about ANYTHING you want is viable on he lower MP's...1-3 (3 being the strength of the old inferno pre 1.04 as I understand it).

This joke that you MUST RUN this build is not true...it's ONLY true on higher MP's...and here we go for the punch line....higher MP's are NOT mandatory, nor should people be entitled enough to think they have the RIGHT to play MP10 with any build and be successful. The game shouldn't be designed around that...no sir.

Now could skills be improved overall, could synergy between skills be improved....absolutely...but this BS line about "there aren't enough builds" for the game is exactly that.

I can close my eyes, pick 6 skills on my monk and play through MP1 inferno....how's that for diversity?
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With life steal almost anything can be viable with proper safety skills to keep you backed up. It's just that some do outrageous amounts of damage compared to others for a fraction of the cost.

The WD isn't that bad. I can handle MP6 just as easy with almost half the DPS of my wizard with glass cannon/sparkflint. It's the DH and wizard that really need their skills overhauled.
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Here are links to my builds:

Zero Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725050 | General zero dogs setup great for MP10 anything.

Reaper Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725077 | Great for gob hunting and any pt without permafreeze. Also Note that the Rain of Corpses that you cast (not mimics) has its speed rate tripled when casting while mimics are out.

Well of souls - http://d3up.com/b/725133 | Awesome crowd control and really fun to use.

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MP10 viable but more for fun.

Healer Dogs - http://d3up.com/b/725360 | For running in a party; creates mass globes for healing and other skills like gruesome and vengence. I get 284k Life per second with this build.

Permafreeze - http://d3up.com/b/725199 | Yes the WD can permafreeze. This build uses zero dogs as an infinate mana generator. Also abusable with other high cost spells switching the mainhand and acid cloud.

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Extra Personal fun

Life tank - http://d3up.com/b/725010 | 343k life! (focus LOH, tanking) works really well swapping the azurewrath sword for proc freeze.
Pileon - http://d3up.com/b/725258 | Just fun to use in general although the knockback can be annoying.
My Friends - http://d3up.com/b/725308 | I've got friends (on the other side)
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Blizz, check out my profile.

I am probably one of only a very very small handful of monks that have made a lashing tail kick build viable in mp10. It has taken a great deal of experimentation, and auction house searches to get it to work.

I think the build diversity is not as bad as many believe, but the problem is how the diversity is tied into items right now. With only a few exceptions, if you want a more unique build you have to spend countless hours looking for one in a million skull grasps, mara's amulets, SOJs, etc.

There needs to be a much easier way to allow players to customize their gear toward particular skills. Also, I have noticed a disparity in resource reduction rolls. For example, weapon throw can get - 5 fury, which is 50% of its cost. Whereas impale can only reduce its cost by 20% with - 5 impale. There are many examples, where someone needs to stack too many minus resource costs to get it to work, like lashing tail kick.

PS: Please add boots that can roll like +25-50% damage to lashing tail kick. Thanks in advance.
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07/01/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Grimiku
Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?


I feel there is no point in even entertaining your question with an opinion... although I guess that is my opinion.
Hope it helps.
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