Diablo® III

Diablo 3 vs Path of Exile

100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
07/05/2013 04:12 AMPosted by Kil
PoE really lacks casual appeal. It probably won't ever be amazingly popular. The races / ladders are great though, really the best part of the game as a whole. That's the kind of stunning innovation D3 should've had.


I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion.
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Aight, so it basically boils down to this:

PoE: Grind for hours, die, restart. Really focused on character builds and items. To even be remotely viable, you need to have exceptional gear, which takes forever to either find or craft. Screwed economy; good leagues and races. Too much depth, sometimes, and stupid item drop system where level 0-10 uniques can drop in difficulties above Normal.

D3: Rush through everything to get unrewarding stuff, for casual crowd. No depth.

Either way, you lose. With PoE, though, you are punched in the face whenever you fail and it really gets tiring quickly. In D3, there's really no drawback to sucking because Mp0 is easy-mode.
Edited by Mist#1713 on 7/5/2013 3:05 PM PDT
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PoE really lacks casual appeal. It probably won't ever be amazingly popular. The races / ladders are great though, really the best part of the game as a whole. That's the kind of stunning innovation D3 should've had.


I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion.


Won't ever happen because the D3 system both of you love so much isnt about making multiple characters. Its about trading/spending to get the most expensive item.

And appealing casuals are the worst plague in the gaming industry. Appealing to casuals is basically (not always but applies in this case) making games unchallenging and pay to win. For example WoW.

Its so ironic that you say PoE needs to attract casuals then bring up the most non-casual aspect of the game as what you want in D3. Fact is the D3 system doesn't have potential at all in fact is its biggest downfall which is basically that it caters to the most casual players. It allows players to make mistakes with no consequences (except being forced to buy more gold). Why wont D3 have ladders/race? Because then casuals which are the only people still playing this game wont be able to handle it.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 7/5/2013 10:55 PM PDT
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07/05/2013 07:46 PMPosted by TheCursed


I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion.


Won't ever happen because the D3 system both of you love so much isnt about making multiple characters. Its about trading/spending to get the most expensive item.

And appealing casuals are the worst plague in the gaming industry. Appealing to casuals is basically (not always but applies in this case) making games unchallenging and pay to win. For example WoW.

Its so ironic that you say PoE needs to attract casuals then bring up the most non-casual aspect of the game as what you want in D3. Fact is the D3 system doesn't have potential at all in fact is its biggest downfall which is basically that it caters to the most casual players. It allows players to make mistakes with no consequences (except being forced to buy more gold). Why wont D3 have ladders/race? Because then casuals which are the only people still playing this game wont be able to handle it.


The part of:

And appealing casuals are the worst plague in the gaming industry. Appealing to casuals is basically (not always but applies in this case) making games unchallenging and pay to win. For example WoW.


That's a load of crock, it's like saying all black men run super fast . Yeah... sure... appealing to casuals makes games super unchallenging.

I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion


If it makes them money, you can bet on it.
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07/06/2013 09:44 AMPosted by RockSalt
That's a load of crock, it's like saying all black men run super fast . Yeah... sure... appealing to casuals makes games super unchallenging.

how is it a load of crock, appealing to casuals does make games super unchallenging, tell me of a game that's challenging and was for casuals but hardcores found it hard? i'd love to play it.

ever hear of the word niche? because certain games cater towards a group and that's why no one else plays it cuz they either don't like it, or it's too hard, or there's too many things that filters them out.

I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion

If it makes them money, you can bet on it.


if you've even given a thought about their current character system you can bet it's going to be really short races and ladders(like not even a week long), gd luck with that with the current rigid stat system and common-most-efficient-gear+builds
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 7/6/2013 6:16 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
07/05/2013 07:46 PMPosted by TheCursed


I agree with this. Hopefully races, ladders and leagues are something Blizz can add to the expansion.


Won't ever happen because the D3 system both of you love so much isnt about making multiple characters. Its about trading/spending to get the most expensive item.

And appealing casuals are the worst plague in the gaming industry. Appealing to casuals is basically (not always but applies in this case) making games unchallenging and pay to win. For example WoW.

Its so ironic that you say PoE needs to attract casuals then bring up the most non-casual aspect of the game as what you want in D3. Fact is the D3 system doesn't have potential at all in fact is its biggest downfall which is basically that it caters to the most casual players. It allows players to make mistakes with no consequences (except being forced to buy more gold). Why wont D3 have ladders/race? Because then casuals which are the only people still playing this game wont be able to handle it.


I never said that PoE needs to attract casuals. I have no problem with PoE's difficulty. My issues have to do with the clunky combat, the uninspiring art style, the non-existent storyline, and the overly complicated barter system. I also don't like how the active skills rely on drops, making the active skill sets RNG-driven, while the passive ones are mostly end up being as many health nodes as possible to survive Merciless, with a few special nodes thrown in.

But, in spite of all that, I still enjoy PoE and hope that much of the above will be addressed at it's official launch this fall.

As far as ladders in Diablo 3 are concerned, I don't see why we can't get character slots just for a particular ladder race. When the race is over, the slots are wiped, leaving them available for the next one. Wasn't that how it was done in Diablo 2? The ladder characters separated from the normal ones?
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When the race is over, the slots are wiped, leaving them available for the next one. Wasn't that how it was done in Diablo 2? The ladder characters separated from the normal ones?

yes that's understandable but players can reach level 60 in a day in d3 whereas in D2 it's rather implausible to hit 99 in 1 go.

not only that if you're racing normal difficulty that'll be.. really fast, and really easy..
nightmare isn't even that bad
hell is somewhat trickling
and then you have inferno, the actual game or... is this even where the race starts?
because inferno and end-game was diablo3's core development and... that's really not showing much.

the difference with poe is if you are a newborn character or a newbie you'd have to know your builds and game mechanics and application of mechanics

d3 much of that is done for you and/or can be disregarded leaving no strategizing required
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 7/6/2013 10:09 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
07/06/2013 10:05 PMPosted by KradisZ
When the race is over, the slots are wiped, leaving them available for the next one. Wasn't that how it was done in Diablo 2? The ladder characters separated from the normal ones?

yes that's understandable but players can reach level 60 in a day in d3 whereas in D2 it's rather implausible to hit 99 in 1 go.

not only that if you're racing normal difficulty that'll be.. really fast, and really easy..
nightmare isn't even that bad
hell is somewhat trickling
and then you have inferno, the actual game or... is this even where the race starts?
because inferno and end-game was diablo3's core development and... that's really not showing much.

the difference with poe is if you are a newborn character or a newbie you'd have to know your builds and game mechanics and application of mechanics

d3 much of that is done for you and/or can be disregarded leaving no strategizing required


I only played D2 offline so I never experienced its ladders, but with PoE's leagues, you can have any kind of difficulty. I'm playing in one that's just like the regular game with its levels of difficulties: Normal, Cruel, and Merciless. It will last about four months. There are also races that are much quicker, i.e., one hour. Those are usually self-found hardcore; if you die you have to start over.

Again, I don't see why Diablo 3 can't do the same. Have longer ladders with characters moving through Normal, Nightmare, Hell and Inferno. Have faster races that are self-found hardcore. Or any combination thereof.
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Again, I don't see why Diablo 3 can't do the same. Have longer ladders with characters moving through Normal, Nightmare, Hell and Inferno. Have faster races that are self-found hardcore. Or any combination thereof.

the problem i see here is that PoE has addition of skills constantly being pumped into their game Diablo 3 doesn't.
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Diablo III and Path of Exile are the ARPG equivalent of Metro 2033 and STALKER, respectively; both complement each other well with their strengths and weaknesses. And since Path of Exile is 100% F2P, there's really no reason not to try it out. :)
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf#1953 on 7/7/2013 10:17 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
07/07/2013 10:02 AMPosted by KradisZ
Again, I don't see why Diablo 3 can't do the same. Have longer ladders with characters moving through Normal, Nightmare, Hell and Inferno. Have faster races that are self-found hardcore. Or any combination thereof.


the problem i see here is that PoE has addition of skills constantly being pumped into their game Diablo 3 doesn't.


What does that have to do with ladders and races?
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the problem i see here is that PoE has addition of skills constantly being pumped into their game Diablo 3 doesn't.


What does that have to do with ladders and races?

it changes things up where d3's race would stay same, well that's just my assumption with consideration that not much has changed in d3 :/
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 7/7/2013 3:11 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265


What does that have to do with ladders and races?


it changes things up where d3's race would stay same, well that's just my assumption with consideration that not much has changed in d3 :/


The goal of a race is to see who reaches the finish line first, not who has what skill set. And Blizz can mix it up by changing the parameters by making the race long, short, self-found, hardcore, different maps, different goals (i.e., whoever destroys the most zombies in 45 minutes wins), different end bosses, solo, group, world-wide, white gear only, blue gear only, no companions, etc.

There are so many possibilities, including the fact that there can be more than one race happening at the same time. And the prizes don't have to be some uber BiS gear; it can be an achievement or banner or both. Bragging rights go a long way.

I think ladders/races plus an endless dungeon would provide more than enough "end game" to keep players happily occupied for a long time.
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welp we can only hope then~
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I never said that PoE needs to attract casuals. I have no problem with PoE's difficulty. My issues have to do with the clunky combat, the uninspiring art style, the non-existent storyline, and the overly complicated barter system. I also don't like how the active skills rely on drops, making the active skill sets RNG-driven, while the passive ones are mostly end up being as many health nodes as possible to survive Merciless, with a few special nodes thrown in.


Please look at what you quoted. You included the reference to casuals and said you agree with it. You could have omitted the casual part but you didn't.

All your issues are also present in Diablo 3 except for the barter part. In comparison AH is much worse. You get skills from quests or did you forget that. Most race players dont rely on skills from drops. For non-race games, anyone can trade to get the gems they want easily. How is it RNG? My build has 0 health nodes and is finishing up merciless. Also didn't they reduce the effectiveness of health nodes a month ago? When is the last time you played?

As for story, PoE has a better story than D3, TL and MH despite the fact that is still isn't complete. Do you take time to talk to NPC's or do you skip them because you didn't get a reward? You can find out about the

-mysteries of the vaal civilization, their use of virtue gems and sudden disappearance.
-the journey of Kaom and his people, the Karui
-the fall of the the Eternal Empire. Emperor Chitus, Lady Dialla, Malachai, Shavronne, Lioneye, Voll.
-the twist and rise of the undying.
-the current empire and their goal. the reason why the land of wraeclast is cursed (dead rising, and murderous wildlife)

07/07/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Ryaskybird
I think ladders/races plus an endless dungeon would provide more than enough "end game" to keep players happily occupied for a long time.


People have been saying that a year ago, even before PoE came out. Its not going to happen because the games first priority is RMAH players. Unless the idea benefits or attracts the use of RMAH, they wont entertain it.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 7/7/2013 9:20 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
07/07/2013 07:39 PMPosted by TheCursed
Please look at what you quoted. You included the reference to casuals and said you agree with it. You could have omitted the casual part but you didn't.


Heh. I would think if you read my post you would've realized I was agreeing with Diablo 3 having ladders, especially since the part you cut out from my post talked about how ladders could work in D3.

07/07/2013 07:39 PMPosted by TheCursed
All your issues are also present in Diablo 3 except for the barter part. In comparison AH is much worse. You get skills from quests or did you forget that. Most race players dont rely on skills from drops. For non-race games, anyone can trade to get the gems they want easily. How is it RNG? My build has 0 health nodes and is finishing up merciless. Also didn't they reduce the effectiveness of health nodes a month ago? When is the last time you played?


You get a few skill gems from quests, but the majority of it comes from drops, especially since it's the same gems offered. And yes, you can trade--if the RNG gods were kind to you either with valuable orbs or other skill gems. I'm not an AH fan--I tend to play self found in D3--but damn the barter system in PoE is all over the place. Surely there's a middle road between pay-to-win and needing a spreadsheet in order to trade.

As far as your 0 health node build, which class? Can you link it? I'd love to take a look. Currently I'm playing a ranger and shadow in the Anarchy league.

As for story, PoE has a better story than D3, TL and MH despite the fact that is still isn't complete. Do you take time to talk to NPC's or do you skip them because you didn't get a reward? You can find out about the

-mysteries of the vaal civilization, their use of virtue gems and sudden disappearance.
-the journey of Kaom and his people, the Karui
-the fall of the the Eternal Empire. Emperor Chitus, Lady Dialla, Malachai, Shavronne, Lioneye, Voll.
-the twist and rise of the undying.
-the current empire and their goal. the reason why the land of wraeclast is cursed (dead rising, and murderous wildlife)


You might not like D3's story, but you are immediately immersed in it the minute you arrive outside of New Tristram. But after three acts in PoE, I'm still trying to figure out Wraeclast's lore and how the bits and pieces you've mentioned mesh together. And yes, as the story is one of the main reasons why I play RPGs, I always speak to all the NPCs. I want to know what is going on and why. As of right now, GGG hasn't pulled PoE's story together in a coherent whole. Hopefully that'll change when beta ends this fall.

07/07/2013 07:39 PMPosted by TheCursed
People have been saying that a year ago, even before PoE came out. Its not going to happen because the games first priority is RMAH players. Unless the idea benefits or attracts the use of RMAH, they wont entertain it.


Actually both Travis Day and Wyatt Cheng have been discussing implementing a ladder in D3:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9245745553?page=11#211

And this is the meat of my post. This is why I agreed with Kil. I would love to have ladders and races in Diablo 3.
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"Actually both Travis Day and Wyatt Cheng have been discussing implementing a ladder in D3:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9245745553?page=11#211"

---------------------------------

^ He said he is excited about it. He was also exited about arena PvP and the expansion at some point. This is how people in business talk to the masses. Remember what Jay Wilson said before launching the game? I wouldn't be surprised if they had the lawyers review the transcript and make changes before releasing it. What I would like to know is what they really talk about with other developers behind closed doors.

If we are serious about implementing new things, can we have a schedule with deadlines, instead of "i would like to see that in the future" or "we are throwing this idea around but we cant make any promises". If not, at least show us something of equal measure or better. Its been over a year and i still dont see any of the Blizzard inovation i used to see. Just stalling.

I agree about your point about the story, Act1 was very well done, Act 2 was ok (it had its ups and downs). Everything after that was a bad joke. The ending made me think if i replayed the game, it would change.... it didn't. I have always said that the scoundrel and templar individually had a better story than the main story. The voice acting in d3 was horrid, very emotionless and deadpan except for the voice of Shen. The only thing D3 did better was CGI although its a far-cry from D2 and warcraft 3 CGI. D3 story was also very straight forward and overused...
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 7/8/2013 2:19 AM PDT
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07/08/2013 12:58 AMPosted by Ryaskybird
You might not like D3's story, but you are immediately immersed in it the minute you arrive outside of New Tristram.

highly subjective, i was utterly bored throughout and mainly played to see if something hyped up or changed. it didn't.
linearity doesn't do well in this seat.

the minor choice of bandit's quest in PoE was more excitement than d3 could provide and to even have hostility in party from conflicting decisions was brilliant, in fact it's not even brilliant, that should be a freaking standard by today. All of D3's quest rewards grant next-to-nothing and there is very little choice in what your reward is let alone what they even do(exp+gold... really?) To have a player sit through a linear quest line to only further get linear restricted 0 choices is piss poor pathetic for a triple A game and a big name company.

D2 itself you didn't have to do your quests in order every act or even at all.


PoE has 3 acts, it's a bit puzzling with no background lore and having the player suck everything in the first time in with no prequel or predecessors. If by act 5, when they implement it, and it still doesn't make sense then i'll say the story sucks but as TheCursed mention I did speak with every NPC and watched that text scroll upward with its voice acting between every npc in PoE and so far it's doing a good job with what it has.

D3 has had D1 and D2 to expand on and further that. But instead it seems to have went backwards.
My cousin played D3 first time through he thought the story sucked, this coming from a teenager who hasn't played D1 or D2 so he's pretty uninfluenced. He'd rather go play skyrim or mass effect or borderlands2, he's tried PoE he thinks that's what diablo should be, and I told him to go play Diablo2, go figure.

I just remembered,

PoE's races also already have the no-trade, full self found aspect to it. They've pretty much soaked up that entire market for races already. Diablo3 doesn't really stand a chance at this point in that department imo. That's why I say it's highly unlikely and probably won't happen in Diablo3. Couldn't think of it earlier, was way too tired.

The thing about most players is they compete with their games too even if they play both. The things you mentioned lik endless maps and dungeons and races and ladders existing in Diablo3, sound a lot lik what's already offered in a free to play known as Path of Exile. The only thing Diablo3 is going to receive is a ton of backlash and uncreative minds at the helm running the thing for copying features from games that people who adore D3 that call their rival Pile of Excrement.

The devs themselves entertain themselves with the idea, but any plans for implementation is like dancing around a fire but never jumping into it to extinguish the idea and bring it into fruition. They just like to keep the fire burning and trying to attract as many people in as possible or keep them dancing *like fools.

Pretty much waht TheCursed said, I wouldn't be surprised if what the devs said went through a lawyer before even posting.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 7/8/2013 11:23 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10265
"Actually both Travis Day and Wyatt Cheng have been discussing implementing a ladder in D3:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9245745553?page=11#211"

---------------------------------

^ He said he is excited about it. He was also exited about arena PvP and the expansion at some point. This is how people in business talk to the masses. Remember what Jay Wilson said before launching the game? I wouldn't be surprised if they had the lawyers review the transcript and make changes before releasing it. What I would like to know is what they really talk about with other developers behind closed doors.

If we are serious about implementing new things, can we have a schedule with deadlines, instead of "i would like to see that in the future" or "we are throwing this idea around but we cant make any promises". If not, at least show us something of equal measure or better. Its been over a year and i still dont see any of the Blizzard inovation i used to see. Just stalling.

I agree about your point about the story, Act1 was very well done, Act 2 was ok (it had its ups and downs). Everything after that was a bad joke. The ending made me think if i replayed the game, it would change.... it didn't. I have always said that the scoundrel and templar individually had a better story than the main story. The voice acting in d3 was horrid, very emotionless and deadpan except for the voice of Shen. The only thing D3 did better was CGI although its a far-cry from D2 and warcraft 3 CGI. D3 story was also very straight forward and overused...


If this is an elaborate way of saying you'll believe it when you see it, okay. For me, all the signs point to ladders being implemented as they did the same thing for the mob density patch. They asked questions as to what the player base wanted and adjusted accordingly. Hopefully we'll see even more fine tuning when this goes to public testing, whether in the PTR or expansion beta. I think it'll most likely be implemented in the expansion as there will have to be massive additions to the game in terms of separate servers and whatever else is needed for ladders and races.

As far as D3's story goes, our tastes obviously differ so let's just agree to disagree. I will say, however, that I think that D3 cinematics are on par with both D2's and WC3's both in style and substance. In fact, Diablo's confrontation with Imperius at the Crystal Gates is one of the most compelling game cinematic I've ever seen, rating up there with Arthas killing his father, King Terenas.

But then, I much, much, MUCH prefer D3's color saturated palate to D2's grayer tones. D2 gave me eye fatigue, especially in the approach to final boss, Baal :P

By the way, you knocked me when you'd thought I hadn't played PoE for a while, yet I see that it's been ten months since you logged into D3, which means that you've missed both the Monster Power and the increased mob density patches. Some huge changes to gameplay that you haven't experienced, pilgrim.

P.S. I'd still like to take a look at your 0 health node PoE character. Is it possible to give me a link to the skill tree?
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