Diablo® III

Archon users... what's the deal?

Just some numbers for fun:

I did a few runs with archon vs ghom just to try this out. I was able to get him down 47.5% of his health before refreshing. Assuming you never have to refresh, this was 3.65 mil dps / sec. This is full glass cannon (not even using cm) so I'm kinda of cheating in archons favor.

In comparison, with the same equipment with sleet storm averaged about 4.3 mil / sec and killed him w/out having to refresh.

Disintegrate (intensify) was 3.46 mil and also no refresh on arcane dynamo. Disintegrate chaos nexus (best for pve) was at 3.37 mil / sec. So i guess it's a little closer than I thought with disintegrate, but with chaos nexus in an actual game, the kill time is way more sped up.

If I had to refresh archon, i did a few runs like that... roughly 2.76 mil dps / sec using cm / ww. But refreshing vs a single target is much harder than in game because of enemy density.

Ok now it's time to grab a beer and watch the hot dog contest re-run!
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In comparison, with the same equipment with sleet storm averaged about 4.3 mil / sec and killed him w/out having to refresh.


What's the point in using the same equipment? My gear for archon is optimized for archon. If I used that gearset to test Sleet Storm, of course Sleet Storm would fail. I don't use my Sleet Storm gear to test crit mass.
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The point is, sleet storm was considerably better using equipment optimized for archon, perhaps you missed that?

edit: actually I wouldn't say it was optimized for either build, it was just the best dps equipment I have at the moment, which should suit archon well.
Edited by Blizzz#1105 on 7/4/2013 2:11 PM PDT
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Since when is an oculus and a storm crow "equipment optimized for archon"?
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07/04/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Blizzz
The point is, sleet storm was considerably better using equipment optimized for archon, perhaps you missed that?


I didn't miss anything.

My gear for archon would make Sleet Storm fail because of the attack speed, plus no APoC. I don't see how my archon gear would make Sleet Storm "better."

I logged out in my Sleet Storm gear, and of course, I can switch skills and use it for archon, but why would I do that? I have a set of gear for the build I'm trying to use. I don't use dual-wielding, fast attack speed for Tempest Rush on my monk. That makes it fail hard. I not only change skills, I change my gear to optimize for Tempest Rushing in VOTA.
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07/04/2013 02:11 PMPosted by silverfire
Since when is an oculus and a storm crow "equipment optimized for archon"?


because of +Elite damage %. I'm getting +10% from those items alone, which at say 300k dps is an additional 30k dps that you don't see on the sheet, it takes a really good trium + mempo combo to beat that, sure it can be done but it's probably going to be expensive. Archon melts mobs, the biggest hangup is elites, and that's why those items are beneficial.
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07/04/2013 02:30 PMPosted by jenpeezey
The point is, sleet storm was considerably better using equipment optimized for archon, perhaps you missed that?


I didn't miss anything.



You did. When doing these runs I was in the highest dps mode possible with my gear, that should be best scenario for archon right?
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Since when is an oculus and a storm crow "equipment optimized for archon"?


because of +Elite damage %. I'm getting +10% from those items alone, which at say 300k dps is an additional 30k dps that you don't see on the sheet, it takes a really good trium + mempo combo to beat that, sure it can be done but it's probably going to be expensive. Archon melts mobs, the biggest hangup is elites, and that's why those items are beneficial.

Do you realize that each point of elemental damage is worth the same as each point of elite bonus %...and that it carries over to everything, not just elites? There's no contest between trium and oculus for raw damage, not even one as well-rolled as yours. Crow is competitive but will still lose to a mempo, especially when you take into account how much EHP it can free up from the rest of your gear.

That aside, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove attempting to use archon against ghom. It's not the best skill against a single target in isolation? I'd never have guessed...
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 7/4/2013 2:55 PM PDT
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My multiplier for Archon is 5-6x my sheet DPS.

My gear for Archon will not work for SS.

My SS gear cannot sustain as long as Archon because of lower EHP. In addition, I'm not fond of SS for the limited range without Teleport.

I'm not sure what kind of test you're running, but from what I can tell, you're not using sets that are fair for both builds.

By no means will I be able to run 550K+ DPS SS, but by your logic, my 400K+ DPS SS set should blow my Archon set out of the water.

Bottom line is that a top-end Archon set will outperform SS sets, and that's the "deal" with Archon users. You're working toward perfection in this game (on top of what fun you're having), and the cap for Archon is essentially limitless as long as gear's concerned.
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07/04/2013 02:53 PMPosted by silverfire
There's no contest between trium and oculus for raw damage, not even one as well-rolled as yours.


Well I got the oculus specifically for elite damage. I also own a triumvirate. Looking at the AH even triums much better than mine (just without APoC) will net me about 17k dps. Still 6% from the oculus on 300k dps is 18k dps. So yes they are comparable, but only vs. elites, otherwise trium wins hands down.

Regardless, if I used my trium, the results would have been the same, just both runs would have been a little slower, that's all.
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07/04/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Jaetch
By no means will I be able to run 550K+ DPS SS, but by your logic, my 400K+ DPS SS set should blow my Archon set out of the water.


Jaetch, you could try it with all your skills activated on d3up -- Deep Freeze, Cold Blooded, Force Weapon, Sparky, and Time Warp. Does that put you over 570?
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Jaetch, do you also own SS gear? I'm curious to see what your results would be with a better archon setup. I'm able to interchange all my gear pretty seamlessly so I don't understand the gearing issue personally. If anything it should be harder to run SS / Disintegrate coming from an archon build, not the other way around. The only thing I swap is the stone of Jordan for whatever skill I need to use.
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400K+ is buffed (no DF, though). I alternate between FN and Wormhole because I don't like SS's limited range. And FN is kinda counterproductive sometimes so I replace that with either Time Warp or Prism DS.

@Blizzz, I have a SS set and the only items I replace are my Trium and helm (current Trium to 10 APoC one and Mempo to SC).

I have a SS video on my YouTube channel running Act IV MP10. Not optimized, but the DPS is there. The downside is the AOE that SS covers, which is nowhere near Archon's.
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 7/4/2013 3:22 PM PDT
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Oh also, does anyone know if archon snapshots? Say you deep freeze on 4 flashes of insight, get the bonus, then cast another sig spell for 5th flash of insight, then activate archone at the full CC% bonus? That would be pretty sweet.
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07/04/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Blizzz
Oh also, does anyone know if archon snapshots? Say you deep freeze on 4 flashes of insight, get the bonus, then cast another sig spell for 5th flash of insight, then activate archone at the full CC% bonus? That would be pretty sweet.


No for DF. Once the buff wears off, it wears off, no exceptions.

Dynamo only works for the initial cast and will work as long as you don't lift your finger off the right click button. Once you move or left click or whatever, no more Dynamo bonus. Thus, it's really not useful for Archon unless you use Dynamo for Arcane Destruction.
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07/04/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Jaetch
I alternate between FN and Wormhole because I don't like SS's limited range. And FN is kinda counterproductive sometimes so I replace that with either Time Warp or Prism DS.


The range is the worst part of it. It plays almost one-button like archon if you mostly just swirl and not worry about EB, Time Warp, etc, but it also plays like crit mass with you having to be in the middle, get in the middle while pounded a bit, and quickly activating left-hand keys for the extra dps.

Anyway, I activated all my skills on d3up for Sleet:
DPS 650,189.73
DPS vs Elites 669,695.43
DPS vs Demons 819,499.14 (Tyrael's setup)
DPS vs Elite+Demon 833,925.55 (Tyrael's setup)
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Just some numbers for fun:

I did a few runs with archon vs ghom just to try this out. I was able to get him down 47.5% of his health before refreshing. Assuming you never have to refresh, this was 3.65 mil dps / sec. This is full glass cannon (not even using cm) so I'm kinda of cheating in archons favor.

In comparison, with the same equipment with sleet storm averaged about 4.3 mil / sec and killed him w/out having to refresh.

Disintegrate (intensify) was 3.46 mil and also no refresh on arcane dynamo. Disintegrate chaos nexus (best for pve) was at 3.37 mil / sec. So i guess it's a little closer than I thought with disintegrate, but with chaos nexus in an actual game, the kill time is way more sped up.

If I had to refresh archon, i did a few runs like that... roughly 2.76 mil dps / sec using cm / ww. But refreshing vs a single target is much harder than in game because of enemy density.

Ok now it's time to grab a beer and watch the hot dog contest re-run!


Its simple. Unlike sleet storm, you dont need to be on top of enemies to do dmg with archon destruction wave, it also goes thru obstacles like walls so you can pretty much hit anything on the screen, these benefits dont show up on a ghom test.

Also I dont think its fair to compare intensify and chaos nexus with destruction wave. Intensify does far less avg dmg in the real world because you wont normally channel long enough for it to hit max dps, and the additional 44% dmg from chaos nexus is only close range dps.
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range, nuff said

knockback smash against trash, nuff said

aoe aoe aoe

come on, lasers man
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archon > ss as far as edps goes
lol
this thread for real?
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07/04/2013 03:30 PMPosted by TasteDeath
Its simple. Unlike sleet storm, you dont need to be on top of enemies to do dmg with archon destruction wave, it also goes thru obstacles like walls so you can pretty much hit anything on the screen, these benefits dont show up on a ghom test.


Sleet Storm has Teleport in the build. Archon won't if you have Improved Archon. And you'll need Improved Archon to match the dps output of Sleet Storm.

Sleet Storm applies Cold Blooded 100% of the time to everything you hit with it. Archon has to rely on Scoundrel with a Buriza with very high pierce, who may or may not be hitting everything you're hitting. And he dies sometimes which is largely outside of your control.

Both the best Sleet Storm builds and the best Archon builds will have the following abilities: Glass Cannon, Magic Weapon, Cold Blooded, Critical Mass. Archon will have Sparkflint, whereas Sleet Storm will have Deep Freeze. Archon typically runs with Pinpoint Barrier, and Sleet Storm can as well, or they can use Shocking Aspect which actually procs quite a bit with channeled spells (see Apo's sticky and the tests that they've been doing with regard to CM and SA procs).

Archon has a much higher EHP potential, and a sheet dps advantage over Sleet Storm. But a 1H Sleet Storm build will be using Chain Reaction, which does about 100% more weapon damage than Improved Archon's Arcane Blast. You have to be in melee range with both builds in order to take advantage of these, so if Archon wants to use it, it negates the ranged advantage everyone likes to boast about. That means that if Archon stays at range and Sleet Storm Teleports right into a pack, Sleet Storm will be doing an extra 291% weapon damage per cooldown period (which is basically 1 second or less against trash packs and clustered elites). So the sheet dps disadvantage of Sleet Storm is more than made up for by Chain Reaction in a lot of situations. Some of the higher EHP potential of Archon is made up for with Safe Passage and Frost Nova for Sleet Storm. Both take attack turns, so that can cut into dps times a little bit for Sleet Storm.

1H Sleet Storm with 3 sources of APoC can sustain perfectly fine, even against singles and even while spamming Chain Reaction on cooldown, and even when adding IAS everywhere it can.

If you want to compare potential with gear, you have to compare the very best Mempo for Archon versus the very best rare Wizard hat for Sleet Storm. Rare Wizard hat can potentially be 300 int, 6cc, and 7 extra RoF CC. Compare that to 9 ias, 6 cc, and 200 int on Mempo, and Sleet Storm's best helm - from a dps perspective - is better than that of Archon's best. However, 6cc Mempo's are easily available (if you have the gold) whereas a rare Wizard hat like this for Sleet Storm probably doesn't even exist yet.

The very best amulet for Archon versus the very best Mara's with an extra int roll, CHD, CC, and bonus RoF CC is another comparison to make. From a dps perspective, a trifecta Tals would be the best for Archon I would think. That would be a slight dps advantage over the Mara's for Sleet Storm.

If you go with 3 APoC sources for SS, they'll lose a lot of extra CHD if you go with LS on the wand, so Archon has the advantage there. Archon also gets more int on source since SS will have to go with an APoC roll on their Triumvirate.

Other than that, both builds can use the same exact gear in the other slots.

And the biggest thing everyone forgets about is that when you're surrounded by mobs, Sleet Storm is hitting everything around you, whereas Archon beam is only hitting the stuff in front of you. That means that after Archon is done killing the stuff in front of them, they then have to swing their beam around to kill the stuff behind them and to the sides. Sleet Storm doesn't have to do this since everything around them is dying at the same general pace. This advantage that SS has over Archon might not be as apparent during trash sometimes, but it is against melee-type elites that come at in you groups of 3 or 4 and completely surround you. In those situations, Sleet Storm is killing all of them at about the same time, whereas Archon is only killing 1 or 2 at a time, then has to swing over to kill the other 1 or 2 that are left, effectively almost doubling their kill time. Archon has an advantage over SS when it comes to ranged mobs, but with skillful use of stutter-stepping, Teleport, and Frost Nova, the advantage isn't as big as everyone makes it out to be.

Sleet Storm can easily Teleport out of things like Frozen and recover easily from knockback and fear with Teleport as well. Archon can run out of Frozen and then continue to dps from where they end up, and can also continue to dps from where they end up after a fear or knockback. The difference in the dps loss between the two is probably negligible since the cast time of Teleport is static at .333 seconds no matter how high or low your APS is.

So it's not as cut-and-dry as a lot of people believe between the two specs. Both have their advantages and disadvantages over each other. Archon is generally much, much easier to play and gear for, but a skilled Sleet Storm user will know how to work their strengths and deal with the disadvantages in order to make up for lost ground and put them on more equal footing. I'd put my Sleet Storm against an equally geared Archon any day. Not saying I'd necessarily win (unless it was VoA, where I'd trounce all over them due to Teleport shortcuts and never having to worry about refreshing Archon cooldown on trash), but I'd give them a DAMN good run for their money. Anyone up for the challenge? :)
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