Diablo® III

Archon users... what's the deal?

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@Malakai - I want to point out something regarding hitting one elite at a time and enemies behind you in Archon form.

You can actually hit enemies directly behind your beam for Archon at melee range. It takes judgment and practice to get used to positioning and the iniial AOE of Archon's beam. Also, you can purposely lure elites into a corner or at least an area where there is at least one wall or obstacle, there you can work the AI of melee elites and simultaneously hit all of them as they cluster around you. Only downside is if they have Frozen, that's all, and even as SS, you will have to reposition yourself so the lost time is the same.
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 7/4/2013 4:48 PM PDT
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Both the best Sleet Storm builds and the best Archon builds will have the following abilities: Glass Cannon,


I can't use Glass Cannon in my Sleet Storm setup. Not really. For archon I can because archon itself makes up the penalty and then some -- plus it's purple!

Malakai, check out my Tyrael setup. I wanted to keep 24% movespeed, didn't want to go Lacuni; however, I realize I could buy another setup -- Zuni chest & Lacuni -- but I didn't want to add attack speed yet. (sitting at 1.749 currently).

I tried EB, and I'm not sure things are going faster than Time Warp.

Oh yeah, Glass Cannon would wreck my wizard in Sleet Storm.
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archon > ss as far as edps goes
lol
this thread for real?


So typical of you, lameboi.
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@Malakai - I want to point out something regarding hitting one elite at a time and enemies behind you in Archon form.

You can actually hit enemies directly behind your beam for Archon at melee range. It takes judgment and practice to get used to positioning and the iniial AOE of Archon's beam.


I use Archon a lot in the Sleet Storm/Arcane Destruction hybrid build, and I've never been able to do that before. I know that I can sometimes hit the ones that are a little off to the side if they're close enough and I beam well off center. Sometimes I have to force the mobs to reposition by doing very slight stutter stepping, too. But I've never noticed the beam hitting anything directly behind me. I'll have to practice some more and see if I can pull it off.


Also, you can purposely lure elites into a corner or at least an area where there is at least one wall or obstacle, there you can work the AI of melee elites and simultaneously hit all of them as they cluster around you. Only downside is if they have Frozen, that's all, and even as SS, you will have to reposition yourself so the lost time is the same.


SS doesn't have to do anything like that to hit everything. You just Teleport right into the middle of the pack, maybe cast a Frost Nova if you need it to allow EB some time to wind up (and maybe get the CC buff going if there are enough mobs around), and then start blasting away with SS and EB. So I guess in some ways SS can be "easier" to play than Archon.
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I can't use Glass Cannon in my Sleet Storm setup. Not really. For archon I can because archon itself makes up the penalty and then some -- plus it's purple!


You should be able to get more dps out of using Glass Cannon instead of Astral Presence and replacing Pinpoint with Prismatic. You should also end up with more overall mitigation I think since you'll be gaining a lot of AR.

Two sources of APoC should be enough to fuel SS and CR on multiple targets, even with your high-ish APS. But against singles you'll have to just use SS and nothing else.

How you guys play SS without Teleport is beyond me. I think you're really hurting your mobility and dps uptime not having it for some elite packs. Plus Safe Passage is just amazing. 30% extra damage reduction is no joke. You have a Monk, you should know this! :P


Malakai, check out my Tyrael setup. I wanted to keep 24% movespeed, didn't want to go Lacuni; however, I realize I could buy another setup -- Zuni chest & Lacuni -- but I didn't want to add attack speed yet. (sitting at 1.749 currently).


It's a really good setup you have going on, I like it. I want to be using Tyrael's, too, but I need more mitigation first since I'd be losing a ton of armor from my Tal's chest.


I tried EB, and I'm not sure things are going faster than Time Warp.


It's probably not noticeable on most trash since everything dies so fast, but on elites and high HP trash mobs that die in less than 4 or 5 seconds, it's definitely a dps gain. You only need 3 EBs (2 if it's Chain Reaction) in 8 seconds to do more damage than what TW provides, and you need about 4 or 5 seconds worth of SS channel to make up for the lost attack turn from the act of casting TW. Once you get down to a single target elite and can't cast EB anymore (since you're only using 2 APoC sources and have highish APS), TW would obviously outperform EB. So for you, I'd say to stick with TW if you're bothered by the single target thing.


Oh yeah, Glass Cannon would wreck my wizard in Sleet Storm.


You just need a little more mit and you can pull it off. You also might need to swap Force Weapon for Blood Magic if/when you can work GC into your build. So you'd lose 5% on FW, gain 10% on GC, and gain 1.5% LS from BM, and you make up the mit from gear (if you're willing to put more gold into your venture).
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I'd also like to point out you can use cold blooded as an archon with a CM wizard and it has pretty much 100% uptime in that scenario.
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07/04/2013 04:08 PMPosted by lameboi
archon > ss as far as edps goes


I have not been able to prove that but I'm curious if you could show this, for me it is reversed. I know you can tape your runs so I would recommend trying it yourself and doing timings on ghom (it's the only way to be on a fair playing field being it's a single target, no random enemy placement and always a consistent situation). I'm glad this thread brought some more thought to the issue, because i think archon deserves a serious buff.
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One of the main reasons why archon is so attractive, even if it had a low multiplier is because of buffet gearing, the number being multiplied doesn't have constraints like SNS and SS do.

SS's super gimpy limitation "Limit attack speed" hobbles your dps so much that it would need a 10x multiplier to be competitive.

So a 3x multiplier (I know it is higher, but this is just for example) is very similar to a 6x multiplier considering it is "easy" to START at twice the dps when you don't have to worry about attack speed and critical hit breakpoints.
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Here are two examples, using the same gear (minus a different SoJ). I'm only going almost halfway with the archon to give the archon build a crutch since I would have to spend time to regen it anyway and would slow down the kill time.

Archon: (don't mind the death, we're only going halfway for dps purposes)

http://youtu.be/ATqnOvVQQ7U

Sleet storm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJkGryXuwXI

There is a big difference... archon straight up doesn't output as much as people think it does. This is using the same gear (my highest dps gear to benefit archon).

Regardless of those two vids, both builds have uses as were heavily detailed above so I won't go into it. I'm just trying to get people to think about it.
Edited by Blizzz#1105 on 7/4/2013 8:37 PM PDT
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Again, I'll just repeat my point for Archon's "deal."

There are no limits for Archon. The only ceiling you can reach is when every DPS and EHP stat is maxed out. Can't say the same for other wizard builds as they need additional stats like APoC or other secondary stats to work, thereby foregoing additional DPS or EHP stats. Other builds make up DPS with higher multipliers, but for Archon, what you see is essentially what you get. You won't see SNS or SS wizards with perma sheet DPS in the 600-800K range.

With sub-600K DPS in Archon, I can usually dish out around 3.5-4M eDPS, whereas I can't do the same with 20 APoC 1-hand SS because my EHP is significantly lower than in Archon. Hard to compare, but the eDPS is also upward of 3M last I checked.

Regardless, in normal runs where Archon shines, elites without Extra Health die in about 15 seconds and I don't have to worry about moving. I've done the same with SS and the times are similar, given a couple seconds here or there, but the problem always comes down to chasing down enemies to get in range.

All tests are MP10, FYI. And bear in mind I build heavy EHP even with life steal. In my old pre-2013 gear set, I had close to 800K buffed DPS, about 750-760K DPS with life steal.

Some people like hunting elites, but you'd go SNS in that case. Mass trash killing is unmatched in Archon.
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 7/4/2013 8:46 PM PDT
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Jaetch, I thank you for that explanation, I completely understand the no ceiling idea. That's what I was looking for when I started this thread, but did not realize it at the time.

I guess that is the benefit... you can gear super dps ehp for archon and not worry about apoc etc. (until you have to regen), which hopefully you don't have to since you should be thrashing trash mobs pretty easily which would refresh it. I guess I was just disappointed at the dps output for using similar equipment (if that makes sense) since I assumed archon would be superior.
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That's exactly it. Archon is super straightforward to gear, as in setting up and also upgrading down the road.

When itemization comes out at the end of the year or the next, who knows what'll happen to wizard builds? SS may want to go for something else to become optimal; more RoF bonuses? AOE boosts? AP regen? Who knows. SNS, barring astronomical nerfs, may want to add bonus stats here or there to meet new breakpoints or freeze strength. More ET bonuses? New APoC items? We don't know.

For Archon? Whatever happens, the concept's the same. Whatever adds more sheet DPS and EHP, no matter what the item is.
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 7/4/2013 8:55 PM PDT
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Again, I'll just repeat my point for Archon's "deal."
All tests are MP10, FYI. And bear in mind I build heavy EHP even with life steal. In my old pre-2013 gear set, I had close to 800K buffed DPS, about 750-760K DPS with life steal.


Why would you stack EHP and give up that DPS in the first place? Wouldn't your faster kills speeds make up for less EHP? By stacking so much EHP now and killing that much slower, it seems you're only leaving yourself open to more potential deaths via horrible affix combinations (and why no 24% movement speed? Never understood that - seems horribly inefficient).

I can see how EHP would've been desirable in the old inferno, but shouldn't DPS trump everything else right now provided you don't completely ignore EHP? If you just want extreme survivability, I'd argue that teleport while in Archon > insane EHP, cheaper too.
Edited by Suikoden#1920 on 7/4/2013 9:23 PM PDT
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@Suikoden

Just ask anyone who's ever played with me. I don't die. Ever. Unless I'm somehow outside Archon form with Archon on major cooldown.

3x Desolate, multiple Plague pools, multiple crisscrossing Arcane Sentries, simultaneously blasting all members in a Horde RD pack, no problems.

No kiting ever unless there are multiple Frozen spawns with multiple Desolates already underneath me. With high EHP and life steal, I can guarantee I'll outlast anything that gets thrown at me as long as I'm attacking something in Archon form.

Sure, I'd like 100K more DPS, but I played with major DPS and about half my EHP back in late 2012, and I'm more comfortable now.
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@Suikoden

Just ask anyone who's ever played with me. I don't die. Ever. Unless I'm somehow outside Archon form with Archon on major cooldown.

3x Desolate, multiple Plague pools, multiple crisscrossing Arcane Sentries, simultaneously blasting all members in a Horde RD pack, no problems.

No kiting ever unless there are multiple Frozen spawns with multiple Desolates already underneath me. With high EHP and life steal, I can guarantee I'll outlast anything that gets thrown at me as long as I'm attacking something in Archon form.

Sure, I'd like 100K more DPS, but I played with major DPS and about half my EHP back in late 2012, and I'm more comfortable now.


Fair enough, guess I just assumed there'd still be packs that gave you trouble. :) Is there any way you could maintain your EHP and get 24% movement though? That'd be the only thing I'd find annoying if i had your gear.
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07/04/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Jaetch
You won't see SNS or SS wizards with perma sheet DPS in the 600-800K range.


I can get to about 500k on the sheet in one of my 1H SS setups while having 3 sources of APoC, and that doesn't include Deep Freeze, which is almost always up. With DF up, it's about 580k sheet. Looking at just the RMAH, I can potentially get another 70-80k sheet dps or so while also gaining a lot of ehp in the process, but losing 1 source of APoC. I could probably nab more dps and ehp if I looked around some more concerning weapon changes versus going 6cc Mempo, or looking at what other kind of APoC wands are out there while keeping Storm Crow and going with a double Int Triumvirate. I just wanted to see what might be possible, so I didn't dig around too much.

07/04/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Jaetch
With sub-600K DPS in Archon, I can usually dish out around 3.5-4M eDPS, whereas I can't do the same with 20 APoC 1-hand SS because my EHP is significantly lower than in Archon. Hard to compare, but the eDPS is also upward of 3M last I checked.


With my 97% CC 1H SS setup, I'm also doing about 4m eDPS. Maybe a little bit less due to the initial windup of Chain Reaction, but you can get around some of that if you cast it before teleporting into a pack of mobs. That setup only has about 400k on the sheet not counting Deep Freeze, and also doesn't include the dps from all the extra RoF CC on my gear.

The downside to my setup is that I'm only using Blood Magic for healing and have to swap to an LS wand for RD, and also sometimes on very hard hitting elites that also have Fire Chains + Electrify. That drops my sheet dps by about 60k with the new LS wand I got yesterday, which isn't too bad I suppose.

I'm also toying around with another 1H SS setup that keeps the LS wand for all things, and uses some other pieces of gear in order to achieve about 400k sheet dps without Deep Freeze up, but no bonus RoF CC. It's a lot more comfortable to play, so I want to pursue it some more.

My 2H SS setup does about 3-3.5m DPS against elites (it uses an SoJ), and if they have Fire Chains, Electrify, Fast, and/or Molten it goes up quite a bit due to Reactive Armor. And Blazing Guardians get absolutely destroyed when I stand in their fire patches. So do those spinning Wraith things when they spin on me.

07/04/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Jaetch
I've done the same with SS and the times are similar, given a couple seconds here or there, but the problem always comes down to chasing down enemies to get in range.


If I recall, you weren't using Teleport with your SS setup, at least not in your video. That helps a lot with chasing down ranged mobs, as does effective stutter-stepping with them as they start to move away. You were also using Reactive Armor and Frost Nova, when you probably should have been using Pinpoint Barrier since much of the benefit from Reactive is negated when you're freezing stuff. Those 2 changes would probably help out a bit with dps while simultaneously helping with survivability and mobility issues.
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^The Teleport issue -- so I never used it with archon because of Improved Archon, and I'm just used to that. Using Sleet Storm with no Tele is not that different although I am tempted to try Safe Passage just to try it.

Before I left for fireworks, I tested my setup on Ghom, and although it was kind of a fun, dicey test, I did run out of AP and had to move off and re-engage. I didn't think it was that bad, and it's like losing archon after 15 seconds on him and having to reset archon.

On mp9 AP wasn't an issue because I could kill him before I ran out. On 10, the only way I could make this work was using Diamond Skin instead of Bone Chill.
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MP10 Ghom kill times --

(Ghom is probably the worst test for both Sleet Storm and Archon.)

Sleet Storm: 1:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_lHvKWKplY

Archon: 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhO9HYP1_8

I used Bone Chill as the Frost Nova rune, Cold Blooded for both, Glass Cannon only for Archon. Tyrael's Might bonuses on Sleet Storm set.
Edited by jenpeezey#1208 on 7/4/2013 11:52 PM PDT
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Swordsman-1292/hero/34337281

Archon Wizard here. loving it.

Any advice to upgrade my gear, pushing it to 300k/400k dps.

my current dps i can do inferno mp 1 or mp2 the most.
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@Suikoden - Yeah, it's possible to maintain my EHP and get 24% movespeed. I just need Charlatan's Lacuni :P look it up.

@Malakai - I ran Teleport and Prism on top of Spark, Force, Pinpoint before as well, I just didn't record it. I ran it in pub games MP10 and carried with it. But again, I just don't enjoy the lack of mass AOE coverage compared to Archon. And sometimes trash dies so fast I can't get CM to proc enough to reset Teleport.
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