Diablo® III

Loot 2.0, discovering its true potential.

Great post. This saves me so much time! I've been debating about creating a thread similar to yours for the past couple months. I've discussed my ideas to my family and friends but wasn't sure I wanted to share that with everyone else. You hit some of the same ideas I had head on! My favorites are the Magic Find and Mystic changes.

I like the idea of not being able to re-roll stats but only upgrade existing stats. That way I could spend time upgrading my Manticore that doesn't have dex and it still would be useful. But if I got one to roll dex / vitality I'd have to make the decision whether or not to switch. Most likely I'd continue using my current Manticore while investing in upgrading the new one until it surpassed my original. This rewards players for playing. Obviously to have the best stats of every item would take a lot of time. It would be cool to see that and know the player didn't just buy their gear–they actually had to play.
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very good ideas :) reading this made me excited about the game!
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So...will this thread reach 500 and self lock?
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07/24/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Monstrous
Thanks Vaef, really looking forward to the changes! If you could pass on to Travis, he should think about releasing a couple items every now and then leading up to the expansion. Even if it's just the effects, no need for the other numbers ;)

Although I agree that it would be great to receive new items in the lead up, the devs have already stated they plan to launch the itemization patch as one giant package so it's unlikely this would happen.
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07/24/2013 05:32 PMPosted by DamienJohn
Thanks Vaef, really looking forward to the changes! If you could pass on to Travis, he should think about releasing a couple items every now and then leading up to the expansion. Even if it's just the effects, no need for the other numbers ;)

Although I agree that it would be great to receive new items in the lead up, the devs have already stated they plan to launch the itemization patch as one giant package so it's unlikely this would happen.

Oh I wasn't very clear in that post I guess, I meant release them as a post or even just the image. Not in the actual game ;)
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Great Ideas.

Blizzard, do you see what happened when game is developed by someone that actually loves playing game. Get your hands out of our wallets and get to it.
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07/24/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Simply because we don't comment on a thread does not mean it escapes notice. It's quite the opposite, actually!

What's that supposed to mean?! That blue comments correlate with a lack of notice?

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07/24/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Mist3rHyde
I personally saw it on Monday (it was posted on Sunday) and have been tracking it and passing it along to relevant individuals since then. Simply because we don't comment on a thread does not mean it escapes notice. It's quite the opposite, actually!

If this dude had more than two brain cells he would realise a 15+ pages topic would never go by unread ! You shouldn't even bother answering to such stupid replies...

Wipe your nose off theres some brown stuff on it. Quit sucking up to these guys. When they finally start putting out good material, we the community will stop downing them.
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07/24/2013 03:36 PMPosted by Vaeflare
This is a really great, and comprehensive set of suggestions and feedback! Thanks for putting that all together, Monstrous, and for all of you for sharing your thoughts! We're definitely keeping an eye on this thread and would love to hear your loot-related thoughts. :)

No it isn't a great set of suggestions IMHO.

Magic Find is/was an extremely important part of a DIABLO game.

The ONLY part of the suggestions that I would support is for NV stacks to operate at all levels.

In D2 you were forced into a choice: Use a lot of MF gear if you want to find magic(rare/unige/set) items, doing so at the expense of survivability/DPS.
- OR - The opposite.

D3 does not force that choice. Instead its Paragon MF/GF buffs(the idea being to REMOV
E magic finding from gear) and its NV stacks, completely REMOVE the choice!

Remove MF completely?? How about remove paragon levels, remove NV stacks which cant be used at low levels(and prevents "on the fly" skill switching), and make Magic finding work on breakables again.

Choice is a good thing!
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Just a heads up - the thread cap has been raised so the ideas can keep coming in. :)

Oh, and a warning: Posts that attempt to turn this into a thread bashing Blizzard in order to derail it are likely to be deleted. Please keep it civil and focus on the ideas, not the Blues. :)
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Edited by TheTias#1192 on 7/24/2013 5:57 PM PDT
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So what will blizz do about this well......NOTHING ofcourse all they care about is money and not improving the game as it is.
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On that note, this guy needs to be on your payroll. Everything he has presented has alot of fun behind and way more depth than what we have now. Considering the game came out 1 year ago, it took him that long (not sure how long it took him) to come up with these ideas. Blizz had 7 years to do it and this is what we get.

I firmly believe that we are still in beta. I have paid to get into betas before that offer the full game or bonuses at the start when it does go live, but this is the most expensive beta I have played and i get no bonuses for testing it. How about you guys throw up a PTR with what you guys have, let us play around with it since your in-house testers aren't all that great at testing. Watch the influx of people swarm to this game to test all the new goodies. I can understand taking the PTR down for a week or 2 after a patch goes live, but you should also consider keeping it up with random updates with what you guys are doing so we can bug the crap out of it and there won't be any repercussions when it hits live (see AH gold duping bug for example).
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07/24/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Only took 460 replies for them to notice.
I personally saw it on Monday (it was posted on Sunday) and have been tracking it and passing it along to relevant individuals since then. Simply because we don't comment on a thread does not mean it escapes notice. It's quite the opposite, actually!

Just want to say thank you for noticing and acknowledging what is perhaps one of the most helpful and constructive posts on this forum. Please know that your acknowledgment is greatly appreciated.

I hope more posters will take note of the benefits of being positive and constructive. I will also bear this in mind when posting in the future.

To the OP: Thank you very much for the service you have provided to the community and for the encouragement you have give me.
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Refreshing to read indeed! The only issue is the implementation. Currently it takes rather a long time for Blizz to address such issues in a patch, and by the time that happens, other problems arise either from unforeseen circumstances or long-standing issues. Blizz puts out one fire while others either start or continue to blaze.

It would be nice for the game to reach a point where all existing problems are minor, and break the chain reaction of new major problems popping up. Then perhaps Blizz can put more focus on what I want most of all out of this game: more content; i.e., more side quests, tweaks to the storyline, a darker atmosphere, etc. Perhaps that would distract players some from min-maxing all the time and worrying about magic find or upgrades. I despise grinding and excessive item hunting, especially in the same old 3 Acts (tumbleweeds in A4 :D), but that's all that's left to do in this game currently.
Edited by GoneTomorrow#1483 on 7/24/2013 6:27 PM PDT
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Well done. Some amazing ideas. Haven't logged in or played D3 in several months. Your excellent post compelled me to log in to give a thumbs up. You are cutting to the heart of the problems in the game.

If what the devs put out in Loot 2.0 is anything close to this, there will be real reasons to play again.
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pretty sure a lot of players would love for these to be implemented.

great job OP
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These ideas are awesome, although I can see them putting in new ability runes in the expansion (AS THEY SHOULD) and balance the ones we have now better. Friggin' excellent ideas, dude/dudette.

P.S. - I haven't logged in a long time but I did so just to support this person's ideas. DO IT BLIZZARD!
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I'm just going to quote a few criticisms

I do not agree with to loot 2.0 because it is counter design .
some of the ideas like runes on items. well, if you check out wyatt's gdc talk., has been done before in some variant


I feel plenty of people are merely jumping on the upvote bandwagon because its just different. these are probably the same people who would support a "double all legendary drops" proposition without realising its effects would be counterproductive in that all your doubled legendaries would be worthless in light of the larger picture of supply vs demand.

if you want the average player to be able to "earn" their way to godliness from selling drops, you need to bring two goals narrower.
what you should be looking at is "how to increase the affordability of TOP END PERFECT GEAR" and "how to increase the demand of entry level gear". and narrow the gap between these two ends. eg: increasing demand of salvage materials is one way. how can you make people who already own top end gear DEMAND salvage materials on a perpetual and constant rate. I have some ideas on this matter, but I leave it to you to think up your own.

* Legendaries will still probably roll with random affixes in loot 2.0. So in addition to being potentially crap, the rarity chance will skyrocket. So potentially worse than the current situation. If there were another item class above legendary with fixed affix rolls (like D2 legendaries) this'd be viable. Could make them bind on pickup for the self-found epeen.

* Achievements with direct gameplay benefits won't happen. People will feel like they're "forced" to complete them.

* Legendary lore journal sounds like a neat idea. Not sure it's worth the development time/cost though. I've gone through the journal entries only once and that was only on the first playthrough.

* The 50-500 NV stacks idea won't happen as it would severely discourage short playtimes (eg: lunch breaks, parents, casual players etc). Legendaries with NV stack multipliers will just become mandatory gear swap items you keep permanently in your inventory.

* Having too many different types of elemental crafting materials is problematic with inventory space. You also have the extremely large development problem of trying to make them all useful (and somewhat balanced). Just look at Fiery Brimstones now, and multiply that by 7.

* Hunting uniques for rare drops is a very bad idea. If you've ever tried to complete the "A Unique Collection" achievement you'll probably know what I mean. Unless of course they greatly increase the spawn rates.

* Quadrupling your character's inventory won't happen as there's 2 problems: more database storage (network infrastructure, HDDs etc) & trivializes inventory management. Not even sure this is needed for salvage-derived crafting mats as crafting NPCs can now use the stash, so essentially this only really affects picked up gems.
* Streamlining lower level gems is a waste of time. Once players hit inferno, they no longer care about them. Higher level gems dropping won't happen as it's meant to be a gold/gem sink.

* I like the legendary upgrade idea. Just nitpicking, but with the proposed tightened rolls the upgrade range will likely be smaller.
* Rune weapons are awesome. Or maybe even droppable runestones that you can slot into weapons.

* I don't want to identify (or buy up unid items) just to get a % damage increase to 2h swords which are still going to be crap compared to axe/mace for someone like a Barb.

* I don't want to plan a 3 hour farming session to maximize my magic find.

* I don't want several types of Brimstones.
As I mentioned in another comment.
make combinations of gems used to determine the colors of brimstones or added attributes.
I'd like some sort of "discovery crafting" that you get in D2 with cube recipes and PoE vendor trades.
However, once the recipe is discovered it gets plastered on the internet anyway so it won't be long before everything is known and you gain no advantage at experimentation of finding recipes.

* Farming unique monsters is hopeless.
* I'm 1200 hours into the game and still haven't seen Dataminer and I look for him every act1 game now.

* Runes on weapons just pigeon holes people into those builds.

* The items still need to roll good and the rune needs to be desireable.

* His suggestion of a Whirlwin alteration won't be used.

* Hurricane is really the only option because movement speed = efficiency.

* Dual Weild something like a Skorn and EF? Yeah, let's make Barbarian's even more powerful than they already are.

| Notice how I used the word "identify"? This would be such a simple way to ensure that people couldn't just buy every single | item off the AH to reap all of the benefits, players would now rewarded for playing the game not the Auction House.

* ...Just buy them unid and get your achievements.

| Loot
| So maybe you're rocking a Maximus and you find a Warmonger, wouldn't it be cool if by just finding a weapon of the same type | you just increased your two-handed sword damage by 1%. Better yet, if the bonuses were account wide similar to achievements, you | could find something on your Barbarian that could potentially give a small boost to another class.

* Honestly this bonus reminds me of the stat bonuses from paragon levels. I don't find it very motivating, but maybe that's just me. Also, given the rarity of some drops and rng, it's going to feel terrible for the poor shmuck with 4 million kills who is still missing that one legendary drop.

Magic find
| why don't we remove Magic Find from items and Paragon levels.

* Paragon levels have kept countless people playing this game when they would have quit otherwise. When you get to high-end gear, there is no realistic chance of an upgrade during a run. At that point, many of us look to paragon levels as the reward system of the game. Take that away, and many of us would quit.
As far as MF goes... I'm not sure. It's the primary reward structure behind paragon levels, so if it gets taken out, something major will have to replace it.

| Remove the NV cap size of 5
* So on MP10 You'd have to clear all of A1 and half of A2 in order to reach MF cap? No thanks.

| Award different values of Magic Find per stack of NV depending on the Monster Power

* It makes the system more complicated, and doesn't solve any existing problems. The upper MP's are already the best farming places...
| Earn NV at any level, not just at level 60
* Agree. The loot on lower difficulties feel craptastic after playing on high-mp inferno.

| Lose a stack of NV for every death
* Sounds fine. It's a minor change though.
| Simple changes right? But lets look at what issues we may have just solved: 1) Rewards players for playing at a higher Monster | Power (reach MF cap faster)
* The game already does this.

| 2) Rewards players for staying in one game and playing through all acts
* You want to make the ideal for of farming be a 6hour+ marathon through the different acts? Please no.

| 3) Lower level characters have the same chance at finding legendary items
* Didn't they already buff lower level legendary drop rates? Honestly, I'd prefer to solve the problem by raising density levels in the levelling zones. It's seriously painful to play hide and seek with mobs while levelling. More mobs -| more loot and more demon-bashing fun.

| 4) No longer punished for playing low Paragon characters (No MF)
* Stack MF on gear. If you play sc, it's really not that expensive. Eliminating paragon levels is a rather extreme measure to take. Why not just double the MF roll range on items, and add more random slots to the new legendaries?

| 5) Stops high MP leachers (if they keep dying it's not worth it) Might help somewhat to combat bots
* The leechers aren't that stupid. They'll just build more tanky(even less dps), and call it a day.

| I'll leave you with a fun item I came up with to tie along with the changes to Nephalem Valor that I just proposed, enjoy.
| Item affix: Earn NV at 2x the rate

* Great. You equip it right before elite kills to gain double NV, and then quickly go back to your normal ammy for normal gameplay. The vast majority of them would be completely useless, due to having no trifecta stats and no mainstat/vit/ar.

| Everyone can get up to 500 MF, its just done in a way that less active players can achieve.
* No, his system is just screwing those who can't play for several hours straight instead. Those of us that play for 30mins at a time? Completely screwed.

| I also like the inherently lower drop rates of higher tier uniques. This way, you can give the more active players some | ewarding: for simply pulling the knob on the slot machine more times,

* So basically, like how mempos and IK chests are in the game right now. They have a far lower drop rate than many of the other legendaries.

| More active players can appreciate trying out multiple kinds of builds, and less active players can have a choice between rares

* You know how many people will look at it? Players who don't have time to play much, like yourself, will get screwed and not be able to play the good builds in the game.
| People have lives outside of the game, and if you treat the game in a way that both rewards playing, and punishes people for not playing (in the form of lost MF with paragon leveling), you have... this.

* You're arguing against an end-game progression system simply because you can't achieve every single reward playing super-casually. I don't think I need to explain the problems with this logic.

| I immensely enjoyed a lot of the OP's suggestions, because not only do they reward players, but in a number of isntances, they don't punish people for not playing.

* They absolutely do, much more so for many of us than the current system. I DO NOT want to have to play this game for 3+ hours straight in order for my farming to be competitive. This is what his loot suggestion does. Also, the casual will get screwed out of the most powerful runes because they can't invest the time to get them. You're rocking a serious case of the double-standards.

| In MP3, you can get 100 stacks in 30 minutes, and have twice the normal chance of finding rares/legendaries.

* There is a Massive logical fallacy here. People get 5stacks fast because we always run the highest elite-density zone first. Try finding 50 elite packs in all of A1 sometime(every single zone). Unless numbers have changed recently, you can't. on MP10, you would have to clear all of A1 and a solid half of A2 before you reached maxed stacks. You are comparing the efficiency of the fastest zones and extrapolating your numbers across the rest of the act.

| The ultimate end game material should ALWAYS be rares, and rares are ridiculously easy to find end game. Having BIS legendary | items kills the game, because everyone will just (one way or another) try to get BIS legendaries.
* For the most part, we've already moved away from that paradigm. The article doesn't even hint at going back to a rare-dominant Diablo.

| One final note I have is: if you spend 30 minutes playing per day, it will take you months to get to level 60, and years to get | MP100 (almost literally)

* I never said 30 mins/day. I said in 30 mins at a time. If I farm for 30 mins twice a day, I can hit p100 on hc in a few months. It's really not as hard as you make it out to be with all the buffs.

| Going by what OP suggested, 30 minutes with ~1 min per rare/champion stack, gives you 30 MF at MP0, and 90 MF at MP3. One could argue, based on this, that the OP's suggestion is too lenient towards average players.

* In your example, the player would have 190mf by the end of 30 mins. In the current game, at para 20, on MP3, the same player would have 210MF, and would have had that 210mf since the 5min mark. The numbers don't support your argument.
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 7/24/2013 7:22 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
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Nice post...

Been away from this title and finally broke down and played wow.. again.
I think you covered many things I too personally would like to see added and or changed for this game. One thing that has me worried about the future of Diablo 3 is how very Linear and boring the game can feel.

Someone with your skills and ability to create a vision should map out some concept art of either a infinite dungeon concept or "something else" that captures that feeling of Diablo without just forcing us back into a point by point story line with all that dialog.

I mean once or twice or even thrice is just fine but how many times do I need to save Tyreal from the the Butcher? really... One fun concept for me is the idea of doing a Diablo 1 dungeon maze. It would be sorta like a infinite dungeon except for that it actually would have Church, Catacombs, Caves, and then Hell...

Each sub level is extremely expansive and randomized like a huge maze. Each sub level pulls from a variety of monsters and demons. Once you reach Hell and make it through that labyrinth you are able to unlock a classic redesigned and Male (huge and awesome looking) Diablo.

If you can kill him... He must be Uber hard... then you get a something special.
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