Diablo® III

Attack speed on bell damage argument. (again)

Okay,
I figured we should probably post a new topic in regards to this so I don't disrupt attention on Rii's new axe (which is pretty pimp).

This is something I have noticed since the first days of this game. Attack speed shrines boost your damage #'s.

When I say damage #'s I mean the displayed numbers above your screen not the fact that having more casts does but that I guess you could say the individual Wave of Light proc's report a higher damage

This makes sense to me. Weapon damage is based on average damage and your attacks per second. If you Attacks per second go up your DPS goes up [damage read out goes up].

I'm getting tired... Just get an attack shrine and look at individual numbers. Go to 2h with a HIGH ave dam like druin's and find a DPS where CDAM doesnt change involving 2 Dual wield at that same DPS.
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Copied and pasted from Rii's topic.

Here’s a simple comparison:

1 – my current set up
http://www.d3rawr.com/d-kcPgI

2 – my current set up + 9% IAS added
http://www.d3rawr.com/d-03SD3

Click the skill damage tab.

The sweeping wind / FoT skill dmg have been increased with the added IAS which is obvious.

Check the bell damage. It’s the same since IAS adds NOTHING to the actual bell dmg.

It’s simple.
Zero assumption.
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It’s simple.
Zero assumption.[/quote]

Their calculator being correct is the assumption..

Total damage is per tornado. DPS is based on Fists of Thunder aps * crit chance * avg damage per tornado. Sweeping Wind DOT not included.

FoT takes into account breakpoints... they are both 1 hit DD's based off of weapon damage which does increase with more APS its a divisor.
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This is also copied and pasted from Rii's topic.

--------------------------

If you don't want to believe the d3rawr, that's fine. I've been using this forever and everything I simulated in game to confirm the d3rawr calculation were right. I don't theory-craft. I just take out the number and confirm it in game.

We can all theory craft all we want, but the fact is that 90% of the time, we are simply assuming this and that.

And a simple in game test for this is to try two different duo gen cookie bell build. 1 with DR Foresight and 1 with WofHF BF.

DR Foresight increases the actual bell dmg.

WofHF BF does NOT increases the actual bell dmg.

Most of the times, if the boss is just a sitting duck, DR Foresight variant produces the faster kill time over BF variant.

If you can't tell the difference between the two build in game, I don't know what to tell you.
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More hits being placed since more speed, so essentially more damage output, though damage is same per hit is how i see it. yes, no?
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Maybe a mute point, but would Attack speed influence the number of hits a target receives from the projectile Bell's send out? We know that Bell's projectile will hit an enemy multiple times, more so if they are knocked-back as they "ride the wave" of the projectile. Would higher attack speed mean more hits during a targets duration within a Bell's projectile?
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07/23/2013 10:52 AMPosted by RelytReborn
More hits being placed since more speed, so essentially more damage output, though damage is same per hit is how i see it. yes, no?


This...I fail to see how more APS with a bell spec is not a positive (regardless of actual BELL damage per hit being the same)
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07/23/2013 10:52 AMPosted by RelytReborn
More hits being placed since more speed, so essentially more damage output, though damage is same per hit is how i see it. yes, no?


Yeah the dmg per bell is the same but you can generate more spirit per due to higher APS which can increase the bell drop rate per second over time. That's the answer for this.
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The thing with d3rawr is, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they have got their hands on either, an unprotected diablo 3, in which they can view raw code, manage mechanics edit if they want (probably using a platform with which they designed diablo 3), or the devs have helped them develop the site. I don't think they theory crafted everything on those sights they got their info somewhere because it would take a very long time to do this for every character every skill every rune.

The theory crafting that's up to us is mostly synergy and figuring out where they got those numbers.
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APS is never fake damage.

so what if two monks actually have the exact same weapon damage? If one is punching at 1 APS and the other at 2 APS, the second guy is doing twice the damage with his bells, because he's going thru the bell-quickening-bell (spend-generate-spend) cycles twice as fast.

the only thing that may factor in is if u talk entire map clear times where it gets complicated where we discuss mob density (FoM, WH, FW, etc etc) and transport methods (DS vs TR) or heck even the MP (endless TR versus Q-Bell).

Otherwise, a higher APS without losing an equivalent or more average damage will always produce a better outcome.
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The thing with d3rawr is, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they have got their hands on either, an unprotected diablo 3, in which they can view raw code, manage mechanics edit if they want (probably using a platform with which they designed diablo 3), or the devs have helped them develop the site. I don't think they theory crafted everything on those sights they got their info somewhere because it would take a very long time to do this for every character every skill every rune.

The theory crafting that's up to us is mostly synergy and figuring out where they got those numbers.

++
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I would argue that it doesn't have to be a linear incline...
at least try for yourself with a white Balanced Knife full AS in every spot and transgression on.. Yes your added dam with go towards white but ull still get crits for 500k+ and poor out up to 15-18 bells at which point it just looks like your character is having an epileptic seizure
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The accumulated dmg SURELY goes up since you can throw down more bells per seconds over time due to increased spirit generation per sec.

BUT the actual bell dmg per does NOT change by adding IAS.

Are we on the same page on that, Darth? Just yes or no.

And what do you mean by added dmg with go towards white but you will still get crits for 500k? What is that?
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The aps output is definitely important for damage output and regaining spirit, though there is still something I took for granted till recently when spamming bells without nirvana that others ought to think about perhaps if not already:

really strategic bell placement and maneuverability to make those perfect hits + spirit level and conservation of for survivability

One bell can heal me fully most often with single ls, but I always used to just spam the !@#$ out of bells till spirit was gone and then use quickening to regain and do all over. Nowadays I'm thinking about my survivability and focused more on conserving a supply of spirit for: heals, kiting w/ knock backs as well, triggering FitL is when i tend to spam bells all out, but I realized bells can be really great with conscientious hits being placed in unison with spirit conservation for best impact as well as survivability.

Though, nirvana makes this less important to think about since its a 5 second window of infinite bells and many nirvana cookies have double ls for the off time of nirvana.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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07/23/2013 11:04 AMPosted by HuntingFox
APS is never fake damage.

This is false in two cases.

1.
You have spirit/sec gear. This stat doesn't scale with APS and does scale with bell-damage. To take advantage of spir/sec gear you want the highest possible spirit to damage conversion ratio which means having the most avg-dmg/dex/chc/chd/ele-dmg possible and IAS doesn't matter at all.

2.
Bell knockback reduces the impact of IAS.
If you had a choice between doing 100 damage with 1 bell or 10 damage with 10 bells 10x as fast, you would always take 100 damage with 1 bell because there is an extremely high chance that one of the 10 bells would knock the monsters out of the way and cause the following bells to do less and less damage.

I have done thousands and thousands of VotA runs and I can conclusively tell you there are many times when IAS is "fake" damage.

07/23/2013 10:53 AMPosted by Supes
This...I fail to see how more APS with a bell spec is not a positive (regardless of actual BELL damage per hit being the same)

IAS is always a positive (with the sole exception of TR interactions).

The argument is that it is LESS of a positive than other stats that could replace it.

For every IAS roll, you are actively NOT taking some other roll.

For some slots, this is fine because the IAS is "free" IE: it could not be replaced by an equal damage roll.

A good example would be gloves which cap out their "adds to bell" stats with 300dex 10CHC 50CHD (4 stats) and then get 2 additional stat rolls to play with. IAS is a good fit here.

A bad example would be Chest where Tal's gives 9% IAS but Inna's gives 100 more dex. This is a flat out trade-off and, assuming you don't care about Inna's set, you can actually get 230 more dex from a crafted slot.

07/23/2013 10:46 AMPosted by Darth
FoT takes into account breakpoints... they are both 1 hit DD's based off of weapon damage which does increase with more APS its a divisor.

As far as I have been able to test, FoT does not use breakpoints.

I went to GREAT length to explain this at some point ... but the tl;dr is that I did a TON of frapsing and the result was a very consistent decimal APS that would cause a frame per attack pattern to form where the average = the calculated decimal.
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You have spirit/sec gear. This stat doesn't scale with APS and does scale with bell-damage.


what do you mean here? spirit per sec effects bells damage?
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Rely.. My assumption is like an empowered costs 40 vs 75 .. more spirit = bigger damage

Druin,

I got that directly from d3rawr it has broken down calcs.. Check what kim posted.

Kim,

Yes, in regards to wave of light, we're 95% on the same page.
What I mean is added damage from rings/amulets/offhands(diff classes) goes into the damage modifier beforehand no?

The attack shrine shouldn't help bell damage but it will up (and not to a linear fashion necessarily) of your primary. This also is true for SW. -->?
Edited by Darth#1885 on 7/23/2013 1:17 PM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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07/23/2013 01:08 PMPosted by RelytReborn
what do you mean here? spirit per sec effects bells damage?

Here is what I mean:
Let's assume you have no spirit generator and 10 spir/sec.

If you have empowered wave, you can cast 1 bell per 4 seconds for x damage.

Now, let's give you 100% IAS.
You still cast 1 bell per 4 seconds for x damage.

Now let's give you 100% more Dex.
You cast 1 bell per 4 seconds for 2x damage.

You can do this for each stat and you will find that each stat increases your total damage done by 2x except for IAS which has zero effect.

Obviously, you aren't running 10spir/sec with no other spirit generation. However, the idea is that IAS does NOT scale your DPS by the amount you think it does because of this factor.

If my eDPS is x and I double my dex, I get 2x eDPS.
If my eDPS is x and I doubly my APS, I get <2x eDPS as long as I have some spir/sec gear.

Because my monk happens to run relatively high spir/sec (something like 13) I am actually strongly affected by this. I lose a LOT of real eDPS if I drop CHD/Dex/CHC for IAS even if my paper DPS increases or stays the same.

07/23/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Darth
I got that directly from d3rawr it has broken down calcs.. Check what kim posted.

I hear you. I tested it empirically and did NOT see any evidence what-so-ever that the game works with breakpoints for monk skills.
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That i get. Wasn't sure if he meant spirit gen scales bells to do more damage. Wall of light is great, though i can pull off way more bells with empowered which is more important in my case at least because it helps with kiting and sustain. I think 2h bells/tr is inclined toward high damage bells if the survivability is pretty comfortable without relying on spirit so much for bell sustained hits.
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Yeah, monks don't have any breakpoints. I never really looked at the FoT breakpoints on the D3rawr skill tab.

We just don't have any important breakpoints like ww barbs and cm wiz.
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