Diablo® III

5 class challenge - wiz branch

In the WD forums, by superpope: "
Drop CM wizard and run a monk with a high speed high freeze Azurewrath and Sledge Fist using Guiding Light, EP:Essence Burn , Cyclone Strike, and a high proc area attack. Sucks everything in, attacks REALLY fast and freezes like hell, isn't a total sloppy piece of !@#$ on putting out DPS cause of the exploding palm creating a chain reaction of powerful explosions when enemies die.

Nirvana - WoTF/Infused with Light (2 Skills)
Cyclone Strike - Healing one
Lashing Tail Kick - Scorpion Sting (66% proc, circular AOE, 50% stun chance)
Exploding Palm - Essense Burn
Mantra of Conviction - Overawe

Pulls everything in, trips Nirvana, throws off an EP, then spams Aura and Scorpion Sting keeping everything rooted like hell because he's procing 15% freeze, 50% stun, and 50% stun every time he pops LTK. Cheap to gear cause you can make him a tank instead of DPS obviously, and his cyclone Strike procs guiding light based on the CoB witch Doctor.

I've seen mention of using a Barb's War Cry :: Impunity, though often not used anymore. Would be another help against death penalties.

Also mentioned, with the challenge being predominantly boss fights, Cyclone Strike really doesn't fit in well, and is mostly sitting as a wasted skill slot.

This was also quoted by a WD, doubt we want to go that route though.

Nubtro posted this, may be useful for our WD?

Monk gearing : i would HIGHLY suggest fire monk. couple of reasons.
CHEST - Cindercoat. Double fire res, dex/vit + armor the rolls.
BOOTS : Firewalkers. With All res and Vit roll (or armor)
Inna's Hat + pants for 2pc - comes with crit as standard on hat. fire res and vit rolls on it. Fire res on pants..
eHP / survivability rare ring (+vit +cc +AR? +armor +life%?)
Litany (life % i would reccomend here)
Vile wards,
Tri gloves
lacuni's with lowish crit + res. damage + eHP.
Belt : either a good WH or a good eHP belt - depending on stats so far on monk
Think thats all slots.

The WD's : standard 4pc Zuni (hat, Chest, Ring + boots) - we know what to look for
SOJ + Litany
Skorn (high a life steal as possible and practicle)
Vile's for shoulders
magefists w/ CC
rest of slots we know what we are looking for

Attack speed Chants! - will reduce the damage a bit, but, means we dont need to stack attack speed on every slot so can free up some more eHP
cc storm crow (life on hit + fireball for conflag?)
Chants Offhand - again, damage doesnt matter, freezing does so no need for massive damage
Inna's pants OR Blackthorns - depending on current IAS breakpoint we are sitting at. Inna's if need more IAS, BT's if are past 2.74aps breakpoint already - additional LoH is always a bonus
Tal's chest
9% IAS / high cc rings w/ LoH if possible
Same ammy (LoH if can get it) (ignore crit damage really. freezing is more important than DPS)
Tasker and Theo gloves with high CC and eiother vit or all res

There is also talk about utilizing +% damage gear types, but with uncertainty. Glad we have our own past research about that :)

Ragnar's two cents::
Something to consider for your monk - at your desired budget (~300m), you wont be able to squeeze much DPS in there. That will translate into ineffectiveness of LS, so maybe LOH is worth a shot.

Try Blackthorne's Pants and Ammy combo. Here are some advantages: ~1k LOH, great ehp (+life, all around stats from pants, +100 vit set bonus), and both items should be dirt cheap as neither is popular. This in turn may enable you to run one (or even two) two non-LS weapons, which will give you respectable (~130k?) DPS. Sledge fists have spiked in price recently, and for the purposes of this challenge, are not worth it if your CM does his job well (and does not die)

You also have an interesting choice to make on the Wiz. On one hand, you can make a decent (ie hits 2.73, ~150k DPS, decent survivability) SNS wiz that will be able to provide good DPS. On the other hand, you can make a CM who runs group buffs and has smaller multiplier - ie dmg bubble and conflag. (keep in mind that Storm Crow's fire attack triggers conflagration).
So the choice would be between higher SNS multiplier and smoother runs (due to wiz's extra survivability).

That seems to be the gist of what the WD's have talked about so far.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
In the WD forums, by superpope:

That seems to be the gist of what the WD's have talked about so far.

thank you for the report enremit, i shall read all of that again later as i was only able to quickly peruse it
Edited by SteelPhantom#1820 on 7/22/2013 11:13 AM PDT
Reply Quote
lameboi is a traitor...

too bad its a 20k elite kill thing
i'da liked to play for the barbs (woulda got the wiz/wd players jimmies rustled)


if you need a reserve im here i suppose
Reply Quote
The idea of skipping a Wiz and subbing a Monk is a legitimate idea, but the problem with going the Sledgefist perma-stun Monk is the lack of DPS. A well-geared perma-stun Monk will cost in the 100m-500m range, but will have little to no DPS, which is detailed in this thread:


At least with a 100m-500m SNS wiz, we can still put out 100k pDPS with a decent multiplier.

IMO, we run the Monk as CS/Cookie with nice party buffs. 150k-200k dps with good survivability. The two DPSers in our party will be happy with the monk/wiz buffs and can run pretty glassy.
Reply Quote
Zaknaril in Barb's thread:
Monk buffs are pretty nice and have a variety of party benefits. All the Mantras affect the entire party but the most popular is probably Conviction (Overawe): http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/mantra-of-conviction - Overawe provides a 24% DPS buff across the party.

Now for Ubers we have to talk about Exploding Palm: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/exploding-palm - The Flesh is Weak provides additional 12% DPS against a single target.

Those are the main two that I think makes Monks so attractive in groups. Another skill that will have some utility use (especially in the farming content where we have to have 100% clear) is Cyclone: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/sweeping-wind - Cyclone (depending on CC) can really fan out and kill a lot of trash easily which will speed up the clear.

Witch Doctors also have two nice buffs that bears mentioning:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/active/hex - Jinx is similar to Overawe only the Hexed monsters take 20% additional damage.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/active/big-bad-voodoo - Slam Dance gives the party a 30% DPS buff.

IMO you need a WD and a Monk in this party for group buffs alone...

Mention of using Insanity and Earthquake was made if the challenges were short enough. Is exiting the lobby allowed between Ubers to reset cooldowns?

Uber with even more mention or War Cry at the end of the post:
To contribute to the theory crafting I'd def put my vote towards monk.
With good AS they can spam overawe for the 48% bonus and run with guiding light/beacon passive for another 20%.
On top of that the flexibility is nice, someone running a nirvana build will have high burst damage which can help deal with elites quickly and cyclone strike to pack trash together for efficient farming and the gear for nirvana uses the same gear as a cookie cutter thunderclap/nado build so it's wont require different gear to switch over to Ubers.

For general farming I've seen (and partied with) very effective EP builds and nirvana/pillar builds. The build my monk is using is a typical nirvana build in which blindling light can be switched for whatever you feel is most efficient, MP10 EP might be a good choice.

Had anyone thought about barbs and the use of WC? Solo it gets viewed as weakness but in a group and on a budget it could save a ton of gold is and allow more offensive gear choices. Maybe a 2 barb 1monk 1wiz group for farming, One barb running forced march the other running WC?

Llama with a little barb + wiz synergy concern:
I think Death has a point on the DW coment >_>

When I'm doing carries, I actually dislike having CM wiz that stay alive and freezes ubers for too long, because that means I take less damage and do not regenerate fury fast enough, loosing wrath in the process. DW would make this easier. Or we could dump the Wiz all together lol.
But ya, maybe one barb with an ias skorn and 5 ias pieces (1.83 bp) would provide better damage output (even with bloodthirst) than a DW set within that budget. Not sure though. As Silverfire pointed, somewhat decent Skorns tend to be a lot pricey.

If I have the chance, I'll ask a CM to do some testing with me. I'll be at the 1.83 BP and he'd perma freeze ubers and I'll see how perma wrath goes. I would do this by downgrading my gear and damage output, so the fight takes longer (or adding another 2 dead to the game) and it would be clear if I could permawrath easily or not.

Nubtro with very detailed information on Belial:
My brain´s not working properly anymore as I´ve been testing Belial skills all day and that breath attack gets on my nerves...

tl;dr those exploding things on the ground that deal the most damage are called "Lightning Strike" according to the official guide and surprisingly deal lightning damage. I refrain from commenting on this one because it took me hours to figure out the hard way because I thought it was either poison or physical, go figure...

The max damage I was hit during the day from that attack was 674K.

phase 1
"Melee" physical melee max 135K max damage 135K
"Fire Balls" ranged element who cares max damage n/a

phase 2
"Melee" physical melee type arm swings 528K max damage
"Ground Pound" physical melee type 3 attack combo 3rd strike 370K max smash damage
"Lightning Breath" ranged elemental attack 218K max
"Lightning Strikes" ranged lightning element max 674K damage

Basically the attacks to look out for here are the single arm smashes that deal physical melee damage and the exploding "strikes" that deal ranged lightning damage. The pound combo is very rare, all 3 attacks shouldn´t hit you even if you tried and the breath attack isn´t that strong.

I´ll leave the data here if only as proof that I really researched this lol...
BELIAL phase1
- can be CCed
max health 83,055,240 (1 player), ??? (4 players)
swing: 5823-10110
10110, 9366, 8172, 6326, 6911, 9620, 7708, 7297, 7045, 5823, 8022, 8076, 8821, 7941, 8307, 8281, 9979, 8985
- ranged: 12316, 11758

BELIAL phase2
max health 221,480,656 (1 player), ??? (4 players)

left swing 21104-37283 21104, 36631, 37283, 29758
right swing 31069-36978 31069, 36978, 33222, 35071, 36707
combo n/a
breath 10599-18254 10599, 12617, 13338, 18254
strikes (ip) 13414-16496 13412, 15357, 14022, 13866, 13808, 14455, 16496, 14153,
strikes 40153-44983 40153, 42208, 43926, 44983, 41038

test 1
innate 30% 0.7
armor 9175 0.255578093306288
physical 358 0.4680534918276374
poison 434 0.4205607476635514
melee 3+6 0.9118
ranged 0
total physical 0.0837369533046605 0.0837 melee 0.0763513540231894
total poison 0.0752402798051222 0.0752 melee 0.0686040871263104
phase1 swing 10143, 9191, 10482, 8641, 10502, 9575, 10678
phase 2
left n/a
right 37506, 36388, 37332
combo n/a
breath 17896
strikes (ip) 18970, 18757, 19308
strikes 49099

test 2
innate 30% 0.7
armor 7153 0.3057361933417451
physical 480 0.3962264150943396
poison 825 0.2763157894736842
melee 4% 0.96
total physical 0.0847985290966727 0.0848 melee 0.0814065879328058
total poison 0.0591358163437323 0.0591 melee 0.056770383689983
phase1 swing 6727, 5160, 6566, 5792, 5059, 4595, 6699, 6499, 6922
phase1 ranged 11836

phase 2
left 20060
right 27108, 25799, 19111, 23362, 15026
combo x-11192-18983
breath 13943, 12131
strikes (ip) 15335, 15076, 17567, 15573, 43074-50192
strikes 47018, 42360, 50189 14826-17567

innate 30% 0.7
armor 8705 0.265710670603121
physical 780 0.2876712328767123
lightning 454 0.4096228868660598 <------
poison 502 0.3855569155446756
melee 4% 0.96
total physical 0.0535061213406285 0.0535 melee 0.0513658764870033
total poison 0.0717126106095326 0.0717 melee 0.0688441061851513
total lightning 0.076188820374497 0.0762 melee 0.0731412675595171
innate 30% 0.7
armor 8166 0.2783669141039236
physical 568
cold 516
fire 516
lightning 790 0.2850678733031674
poison 564
arcane 516
melee 0%
total lightning 0.0555474249410997

p1ranged 11777, 13715, 13177
melee 25712, 36086, 36795,
breath 14166, 12396
strikes 34935, 34233, 31405, 31828, 34452
strikes (ip) 12373, 11250, 13101, 10844, 12915, 13040
innate 30% 0.7
armor 8606 0.2679482817284791
physical 468
cold 468
fire 682
lightning 574
poison 468
arcane 468

p1ranged 11126, 11818, 14099, 11443, 14215, 10862, 12982, 14919, 11855, 13908, 13047
melee 33447, 34928, 21611, 30560, 37504, 37915, 34103, 30381, 34111, 23575, 31824
breath 9623, 10816, 14673, 11231, 12737, 13712, 14978, 11683
strikes 40617,
strikes (ip) 12308, 13254,
innate 30% 0.7
armor 5061 0.384
physical 476 0.398 0.107 total
cold 423 0.427 0.115 total
fire 457 0.408 0.111 total
lightning 423 0.427 0.115 total
poison 423 0.427 0.115 total
arcane 766 0.291 0.078 total

MP0 test *2.500953065080659 = MP10
p1ranged 6473 max
breath 4603-8230 (100K-179K if lightnig)
innate 30% 0.7
armor 5052 0.384
physical 580 0.352 0.095 total
cold 528 0.374 0.101 total
fire 606 0.342 0.092 total
lightning 802 0.282 0.076 total
poison 528 0.374 0.101 total
arcane 528 0.374 0.101 total

MP0 test *2.500953065080659 = MP10
breath 3142-5328 (103K-175K if lightning)
strikes 11605-13762 (382K-453K)

innate 30% 0.7
armor 6032 0.343
physical 357 0.469 0.1126 total
cold 357 0.469 0.1126 total
fire 576 0.354 0.0850 total
lightning 357 0.469 0.1126 total
poison 404 0.438 0.1052 total
arcane 357 0.469 0.1126 total

MP0 test *2.500953065080659 = MP10
breath 5579-8323

Chazhang with more theorycrafting:
Yea. Now that I think about it DW would probably do better in this type of challenge. Don't have to worry about fear and can run spear OH ftw!

As for the whole idea of gearing a monk for DPS. When a monk is playing a supporting role, the DPS they provide comes from EP (which doesn't scale off of sheet DPS), FoT quickening (165% sheet DPS) and cyclone strike (313% dmg of mainhand but I think there's an APS modifier on it). Spending extra gold to beef up our monk from say 10k to 150k dps means that we're getting maybe (lets give it a generous 2x multiplier of sheet dps) 280k*2.25 (party is getting +125% dmg from monk and wiz) = 630k more group DPS.

If instead we were to spend that money on our HotA barbs and boost them from 200 to 250k dps...
Right now with 392k passive buffed sheet DPS with the party buffs my HotA DPS would be 13.2M vs elites(this doesn't even include conflag which we normally don't run) which is a 33x multiplier. So a 200k sheet HotA barb can be expected to pump out around ~6.6M DPS, and a 250k DPS one would be around ~8.3M meaning we would gain 1.8M more group DPS.

Similarly, for a SNS CM hitting 1 or 2 targets which is what most of our encounters are going to be, the sheet multiplier is going to be quite low. Keep in mind that in a party of 4, an SNS wiz should almost ALWAYS drop their storm armor shocking aspect for 20% dmg bubble (if running TP) and will normally go for bone chill as well. The exact skills on a normal SNS build is designed for solo play but I'm going pretend our CM is silly and only caring about his own DPS for the next simulation.

Using the CMWW simulator for a pretty GG wiz that has really high crit and APS (I used boozor) on a single target you can get a multiplier of around 5x sheet DPS pre party and 9x with a monk; for 2 targets it increases to around 7x or 12.5x with a monk. But to attain those numbers we're giving up a potential 20+15+10%=45% dmg bonus (~25% relative bonus on top of monk buffs) for the 2 barbs. On a 200k DPS barb thats a loss of 1.65M (6.6*0.25) eDPS or a total of 3.3M between the two of them. That 3.3M eDPS loss, given the 11.5x multiplier on an SNS wiz with 2 targets could only be made up by a 264k sheet DPS wiz.

Given that we want to gear our wiz for max freeze, we're liking getting bifecta pieces where we can already and bumping those up to trifectas becomes a much more expensive way of obtaining sheet DPS. I'm not suggesting we make like a 30M suuuper budget CM, but rather get a decent CM (maybe 100k sheet?) that has great freeze and gained most of their dps through IAS and CrC instead of ChD and avg dmg. Something like 250-500M budget for the CM.

IMO the support monk on the other hand has such a horrible multiplier relative to the rest of the group that spending anything more than the absolute minimum is really a bit of a waste.

Nubtro again:
Just tested something that was worrying me for quite some time. There can only be one heh...basically Warcry and Inspiring Presence, even if you run different runes on the Barbs only the last cry is applied. Thankfully Rend "stacks" (separate damage for each Barb).

The biggest handicap we have compared to WDs, DHs and even Wizards if they know what they´re doing is channeling skills and snapshot mechanics. Basically the challenge is mainly stationary target practice, the short routes before a few bosses seem negligible.

If there´s people who don´t know what advanced snapshotting is...basically you take the following damage modifiers and utility effects:

1. weapon damage
2. total aps (breakpoint and/or damage modifier for certain skills)
3. primary stat
4. critical hit damage
5. average damage
6. adds x% to elemental damage
7. elite and demon damage bonus
8. "damage increased by skills" bonus (like Brawler & Berserker Rage)
9. gear skill bonus (e.g. WW crit chance on SoJ)
10. "elemental skills deal x% more damage" bonus
11. life steal

Basically everything except normal crit chance. What you do is you have the main set of gear without crit chance (arguably much cheaper), activate all damage bonuses and start channeling the skill (hold down the button) and gear swap to your full critical hit chance and defensive (vit, regen etc.) gear, ideally with affixes that help you with resource management.

A list of certain skills that come to mind with snapshotting mechanics:

- Whirlwind: impractical for the challenge and by itself doesn´t deal enough damage to go the snapshot way

Demon Hunter:
- Strafe: same boat as Whirlwind, impractical, not to mention low damage output
- Shuriken Cloud: 17%*aps weapon damage each 30 frames, high proc coefficient (disc regen through Nightstalker, LS from Shadow Power etc. this skill is incredible)
- Rapid Fire: you´ll surely see this optimized to deal insane damage, Bombardment to hit both ubers and Fire Support for the single bosses, arguably higher damage output than a Barb IMO in both situations

Witch Doctor:
- Firebats: CoB is the biggest nuke in this game, couple that with snapshot mechanics and great party buffs, the only downside is the initial reliance on globes but they have Final Gift for that, my money is personally on these guys to win

- Ray of Frost: optimized Sleet Storm is nothing to laugh at, 100% crit chance possible, arguably stronger than HotA with snapshot
- Archon Disintegration Wave: impractical for this challenge and in normal gameplay as well
- Disintegrate: lower damage output that Ray of Frost and its piercing effect doesn´t help much in this challenge
- Arcane Torrent: made a mechanics thread about this skill and would love to see it optimized but I think it won´t happen in this challenge

- don´t care at this point, honestly they have enough somewhat broken skills and buffs that crazily stack

Considering the above and seeing as certain classes have IAS party buffs, I wouldn´t say going DW is necessary. We should decide on the main (primary) Barb´s build first and then consider if the second Barb is a wise decision. I know Chaz´s experience tells me two Barbs could work but there are some sick damage output options in other classes.

Btw. anyone ever tested the exact HotA mechanics? This is another aspect I was thinking about last night when I couldn´t sleep because of theorycrafting thoughts not leaving me alone...

I mean whether the crit chance bonus is current Fury / 5 or (fury - HotA cost)/5. I know the actual difference is just 4% with a 15 fury SoJ but 23 vs 19 may make a difference with the trouble of fitting in OPKS and get 100% crit chance. Are the options for the slot Rend if 2H, OPKS if DW (?) because the primary has to have Warcry somewhere?

Ruthless, Weapons Master and Berserker Rage/Inspiring Presence?

Some words from zylog:
I may have a solution for the wizard in the Belial fight. For ubers, the CM spec is really great for holding the two bosses together so we can AoE both, and also for the additive bonuses it provides via bone chill and time warp. For single bosses though, you don't get quite as many CM procs, and if you can't freeze you don't get any use of bone chill either.

What can we do? If we gear for a support role for our wizard, we'll have a few quality pieces with high crit chance and high mitigation. My idea was to get a few cheap pieces to transform this wizard into a sleet storm wizard, where if we abuse snapshotting mechanics we can get some decent results. Here's the video:


Phase 1 - mostly in CM gear, cheap depth diggers, cheap frostburns and a 15 mil mace. No snapshotting needed here, the trash dies very quickly

Phase 2 - I do a 2 piece swap vs little Belial, this gives me a lot more crit chance to take him down a bit faster. In a group situation, I would stop channeling SS a bit sooner to get my 5 stacks of arcane dynamo ready for phase 3.

Phase 3 - there's a delay as Belial gets set up which is perfect for snapshotting. Since this phase is the toughest and longest, I swap to low APS high base damage gear, then swap to high crit high EHP gear which allows me to facetank him.

To compare, here's Lameboi's SNS wizard facetanking Belial with what I assume is significantly better gear yet ultimately, lower effective DPS:

Though gear swapping has been banned, it is still worth considering since we're weakest against Belial.

More research from Nubtro:
I´m kind of disappointed about the approach around here when make fun of certain game mechanics that are difficult to research, theorycraft, optimize and pull off but I won´t submit my initial lengthy "angry" post because that would be childish.

Instead, here´s my usual plain mechanics stuff if an advanced try was discarded early on heh. Tested Earthquake because it gave me headaches the last time I tried.

It probably won´t surprise you that the tooltip is quite misleading...it feels like a lie to say it bluntly.

-> deals 4.167% (250%/60) weapon damage each frame for 450 frames (7.5 sec)
-> 1875% total weapon damage per cast
-> uses main hand weapon damage
-> damage doesn´t scale with aps
-> sequence:
1. "jump" from skill click until fury globe response (around 22 frames at 1.00 aps)
2. "quake activation" from fury globe response until the initial damage frame (27 frames)
3. "damage" beginning on frame 50 at 1.00 aps
-> the game rolls for a crit on the initial damage frame and all subsequent 29 frames until the next roll will be crits if the roll was succesful, otherwise you get 30 normal damage frames including the roll one
-> you get a total of 15 crit rolls that occur each 30 frames
-> on the same frame the game rolls a crit you´ll also gain Life on Hit * proc coefficient (0.167)

100-100 base weapon damage, 1477 strength, +173% crit damage
100% weapon damage normal hit = 100 * 15.77 = 1577
100% weapon damage critical hit = 1577 * 2.73 = 4305.21

"No Rune" Earthquake damage sequence:
monster health <-> no. of frames <-> sum of damage frames
95,629 1 <- initial damage tick
90,427 29 5381 = 179.36667 avg damage per frame = 4.166% of calced crit
85,046 30 5381 crits
83,074 30 1972 = 65.73333 avg damage per frame = 4.168% of calced normal
77,693 30 5381 crits
75,721 30 1972 normal
70,340 30 5381 crits
68,369 30 1971 = 65.7 avg damage per frame = 4.166% of calced normal
62,987 30 5382 = 179.4 avg damage per frame = 4.167% of calced crit
61,016 30 1971 normal
59,045 30 1971 normal
53,663 30 5382 crits
51,692 30 1971 normal
49,721 30 1971 normal
47,749 15 1982 normal
45,778 15 1981 normal

6/15 rolls were crits, which is 40% (my actual crit chance was 34.5%)

I´ll test the additional "65% weapon damage" effect most of the runes have when I feel like it ;)

And again with Nubtro's Belial research:
Heh even if gear swapping isn´t allowed, channeling skill snapshot is still viable, albeit not so overpowered and cheap anymore. There´s still huge party buffs to snapshot and it´s to be expected that the certain snapshot skills will be still used (Rapid Fire & Cloud of Bats).

Anyway, zylog has helped me run Belial yesterday a couple of times...it was quite hilarious at times, we died a lot heh.

There´s 2 approaches to this fellow. Either go pure offense and kill him before Lightning Strikes kicks in or lose up to 12 seconds dodging the hits and kill him afterwards.

It seems his explosion attack is periodical. The first one occurs after around 22 seconds since he becomes hittable and its duration is roughly 12 seconds. Then second one occurs around 50 seconds after that.

Belial health on MP10 with a 4 player party = 553,701,632

To get him before his deadliest attack begins, you need roughly 25.1 million party dps so around 6.3m per player. I don´t know if this is possible to achieve, given that I´ve yet to see a real test around here.

Initially we ran two Barbs and tested Insanity Quake and all defensive skills but the damage is too spiky at times and we basically died everytime, even with impunity and mob rule. Yes I was bordering on glass cannon (without the cannon) but I don´t think we can´t afford to go very bulky otherwise our damage output will suffer.

Afterwards zylog changed to his snapshotswap SS wiz and we had help form his pals (WD+Monk) who refused to optimize their builds so it wasn´t an ideal situation/teamwork. Anyway, I began dodging the explosions and stayed the only one alive throughout the fights. None of them could tank the attack.

Maybe the Wiz could run Unstable Anomaly and/or Force Armor (if the hit doesn´t one shot you only take 35%). Also, I´ve been theorycrafting an offensive Wiz a bit and I think 1.90 aps snapshot Arcane Mines has higher dps potential than Sleet Storm. Something like this

I have to test if Storm Armor, Sparkflint and Hydra snapshot Dynamo, nvm if they don´t.

That being said, I still believe that the DH build I proposed could tank Belial thanks to Gloom, Numbing Traps and Guardian Turret and just 4 frames between RF arrows at >2.00 aps and so will a WD thanks to Jaunt and Spirit Vessel, not to mention two snapshot WDs have the highest chance to pull off a kill before the explosions IMO.

I plan on testing some more stuff today.

Last but not least, silverfire/morph, do we (you) have to choose just the 4+2 player names who will fight in this challenge until sunday or does the decision also include the actual team composition?

If not, then there should be at least 1 person who has high paragon WD/DH in case people would get convinced that they´re viable. Oh and Monks consider not running CM Wiz. Just something to think about.

EDIT: My opinion is
1. Barb, Wiz, Monk, WD
2. Barb, Wiz, Monk, DH
3. Barb, Wiz, Monk, Barb

In that order. WD and DH party buffs/debuffs and snapshot damage > second barb, even if gear swap isn´t allowed. Remember they´re still snapshotting all the Wiz, Monk and their own buffs and RF/CoB are stronger than Smash, in case of CoB it´s not even a contest. BBV is an incredibly valuable buff to HotA with the aps. The second Barb brings exactly 0 damage buffs to the table, just like the first one. Let´s not pretend Barb´s damage output is higher than that of WD.

If this was an elite/loot/exp farming competition, I´d agree with a second Barb. But in static target practice? Not so much.

That being said, if you Death, zylog and Chaz go do one run with 2 Barbs and another run with a WD and beat it, I´ll just stop being so pro WD/DH here heh. Hopefully we´ll manage to test this sooner than later. Belial is the most challenging battle and is relatively easily acessible. Start with that one.

Let's get back to some discussion on our setup. What I'm interested in is what kind of damage multipliers we can expect from each class for various skill setups, to answer the question of whether we want our wiz/monk to be pure support (low dps, lots of group buffs, CHEAP to gear) or whether we want to get some DPS in those classes. Here are some results for wizard based on Ghom tests:

Ghom MP7 50,446,580

SNS wizard - SA, shards, bonechill, time warp, conflagration 2.5 APS
Unbuffed DPS - 209,289
Unbuffed elite DPS - 217,660
Time: 30 sec
eDPS: 1,681,552
Multiplier: 7.73
Team benefits: 15% + 20% + 10% damage, freeze utility
Comments - 2.5 APS not really desirable for ubers

SNS wizard - SA, shards, bonechill, timewarp, conflagration 2.73 APS
Unbuffed DPS - 176,607
Unbuffed elite DPS - 183,671
Time: 37 sec
eDPS: 1,363,42141
Team benefits: 15% + 20% + 10% damage, freeze utility

SNS Wizard - SA, shards, bonechill, timewarp, conflagration, 2.73APS with nats
Unbuffed DPS - 164,732
Unbuffed elite DPS - 171,321
Time: 38 sec
eDPS: 1,327,541
Multiplier: 7.75
Team benefits: 15% + 20% + 10% damage, freeze utility
This is probably closest to the typical support wiz setup, what DPS we get is dependent on cost

SNS Wizard - SA, shards, bonechill, timewarp, conflagration, 3.01APS
Unbuffed DPS - 125,770
Unbuffed elite DPS - 130,800
Time: 51 sec
eDPS: 989,148
Multiplier: 7.56
Team benefits: 15% + 20% + 10% damage, freeze utility
Comments - slightly better freeze, but may not be worth the cost to get so much IAS

CM Wizard - Crystal Shell, Pinpoint, timewarp, conflagration, molten impact for better conflag procs, evocation
Unbuffed DPS - 166,809
Unbuffed elite DPS - 173,481
Time: 104 sec
eDPS = 485,063
Multiplier = 2.80
Team benefits: 15% + 20% + 10%, more reliable conflag procs, better freeze with evocation
Comments - extremely cheap to gear for, but a pure support setup

SNS Wizard - frozen mist, SA, shards, bonechill, timewarp, conflagration, 2.73 with nats,
Unbuffed DPS - 164,732
Unbuffed elite DPS - 171,321
Time: 41 sec
eDPS - 1,230,404
Multiplier: 7.18

SS Transformer Wizard - SA, SS, arcane dynamo, time warp, 15 mil LS mace, frostburns, SS SOJ (1 mil), uses 2.73 Nat's setup as template
Unbuffed DPS - 89,085
Unbuffed elite DPS - 118,304
Unbuffed elite cold DPS - 153,796
Time: 33 sec
eDPS: 1,528,684
Multiplier: 12.92 (from elite), 9.94 (from elite cold)
Team benefits: 20% time warp
Comments - this build is probably not worth it without abusing gearswapping

Arcane Mine Transformer Wizard - SA, arcane dynamo, time warp, 15mil mace, 30% SOJ
Unbuffed DPS - 115,431
Unbuffed elite DPS - 153,292
Time: 35 sec
eDPS: 1,441,133
Multiplier: 9.4
Team Benefits: 20% time warp
Comments - kind of a strange build, hard to time the mines to get the lifesteal in time to survive. I actually scored a multiplier of 11.44 earlier on this build without the Nat's set (better EHP/DPS on hellfire) but the Nat's would be more indicative of what we would be transforming from.

Summary: Transformer concept likely not worth it without snapshotting. Question is whether we gear for SNS (requires high armour/AR) to maximize DPS or go very cheap on a basic CM support wiz to spend on our DPS classes.

Ok some more test results.

Support with DPS spec - SW, overawe, blazing wrath (to proc GL), EP-TFIW, blazing fists, combination strike, thunderclap
Unbuffed DPS - 96,654
Unbuffed elite DPS - 131,328
Time: 50 sec
eDPS: 1,008,932
Multiplier: 7.68
Team benefits - 48% overawe, 20% guiding light, 12% exploding palm, exploding palm finishing burst
Comment: running 2 offensive passives so needs better defensive stats, stack on some elite bonus to maximize EP damage at the end

Support with DPS - same as above but with 24% WKL instead of sunkeeper
Unbuffed DPS - 99,450
Unbuffed elite DPS - 124,312
Unbuffed elite lightning DPS - 154,147
Time: 43 sec
eDPS: 1,173176
Multiplier: 9.43 (elite), 7.61 (elite lightning)
Team benefits- same as above

Something I realized is that going ultra-low dps as a pure support monk might not be too practical compared to doing the same as a high APS CM wizard. It might be better to at least get moderate dps here so we can sustain reasonably well using lifesteal on MP10 instead of relying too much on LOH. We should be using an SOJ here to maximize exploding palm damage, at least for the uber fights.

For the Barb and WD, I tested on MP10 since the DPS was higher and I wanted to measure a more sustained DPS rating.


Punish/HotA/Lacerate/Berserker's Rage/OPKS/Thrive with -5 HotA SOJ
Unbuffed 156913
Unbuffed elite 200,848
Time: 50 for 138425405
eDPS: 2,768,508
Multiplier: 13.78

Barbs are pretty good, but we know that already don't we?

Witch Doctor

WD's are tricky because of the huge range of damage they can snapshot into their CoB. Here are a few, I didn't include confuse but it would boost the scores a bit.

Witch Doctor CoB, 1 stack soul harvest, 0 stack GF, no BBV
Unbuffed 119,530
Unbuffed elite 155,389
Time: 91 sec
eDPS 1,521,158
Multiplier: 9.78

Witch Doctor CoB, 5 stack soul harvest, 0 stack GF, no BBV
Unbuffed 119,530
Unbuffed elite 155,389
Time: 75 sec
eDPS: 1,845,672
Multiplier: 11.88

Witch Doctor CoB, 1 stack soul harvest, 0 stack GF, with BBV
Unbuffed 119,530
Unbuffed elite 155,389
Time: 53 sec
eDPS: 2,611,800
Multiplier: 16.81

Witch Doctor CoB, 1 stack soul harvest, 5 stack GF, no BBV
Unbuffed 119,530
Unbuffed elite 155,389
Time: 59 sec
eDPS: 2,346,193
Multiplier: 15.10

Witch Doctor CoB 5 stack soul harverst, 5 stack GF, with BBV
Unbuffed 119,530
Unbuffed elite 155,389
Time: 31 sec
eDPS: 4,465,335
Multiplier: 28.74

I think we should seriously consider having a WD on the team, we should have at least some BBV time for each fight, and the monk can also throw 20% guiding light and maybe even 15% forbidden palace towards the snapshot damage. The damage is extremely good.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the time or the gear to test DH properly. Hopefully someone else can do that. Meanwhile, I'm headed out of town for a few days so I won't be able to test anything in-game until maybe Thursday, but I'll try to keep up on the discussion here.

Thank you zylog for putting the time and effort to do this comparison. I´ll try to do a few DH tests.

I wanted to suggest the Dynamo Miner as our wiz Belial set because it would be fairly cheap and we only need to hit 1.90 aps - well we can´t go higher or else we wouldn´t get the full benefit of 6 mines.

I believe at such aps there is no contest, it´s the highest Wiz damage output unless we´d run some crazy Power Hungry/0 dogs/Pound of Flesh combo.

Anyway, I think you should put me on the 6th (2nd sub) spot silverfire. We need to leave the door open for DH/WD until we actually run each setup at least a few times and I could also play the second Barb if needed. I´m not sure if it counts, but here´s my EU roster

Paragon leveling with some help of the Barb community would be quite fast I guess. I´m not sure how my 240-260 latency would affect me in the actual challenge but I didn´t have significant troubles so far on the US server.

I won´t be disappointed if you say no of course. I´m not even sure people from other servers are allowed to participate. I also don´t really feel like I have to get directly involved in the fighting part (even as a sub) and this is just as a precaution/safety net. You have to name all the team members today so if you decide that we need someone with knowledge and some exp with WD & DH and don´t find anyone, I could "theoretically" sub.

If we don´t need subs, ignore that part about me lol.

As it stands, the DHs do this outside of the challenge but they´ve been actually testing and theorycrafting the most and they have an experienced team that plays together all the time. Monks know what they´re doing. WDs also know what they´re doing. Wizards are struggling to put a team together. We have an excellent primary Barb player and if Chaz is finished with his 6 hour legendary challenge today and turns his attention to this one, we can quickly gain some of the lost time back. Zylog is just great to have on the team for more than one reason.

Good luck. I´ll be off testing some stuff as usual.

EDIT 1: Oh wow where did "Adi" come from? Holy crap. I guess that solves the leaving the door open for other classes hahaha.

Great. I´m more relaxed now ;)

EDIT 2: zylog what did you use as "unbuffed" dps? In case of barb for example base including Ruthless & Weapons Master for example as in "when I enter the game" or the value that you may find on sites such as d3rawr without any skill activated?

Here´s my initial DH test against MP 8 Belial (couldn´t take the strikes still :/)

2nd phase
42,040,492 (54:31) - 8,749,873 (73:57) = 33,290,619 / 19.43333 = 1,713,068 dps
3rd phase
112,673,208 (30:47) - 72,516,488 (52:52) = 40,156,720 / 22.08333 = 1,818,417 dps
149,915.09 normal unbuffed
181,397.26 unbuffed vs elites
multipliers: 9.44-10.02

Note that this was the defensive Belial build (nvm that he still killed me).

In the other boss battles and against ubers, you could go full offense with Cull the Weak with Bait the Trap (20% multiplicative and 10% crit). Also considering if Smokescreen (Gas/Lingering) isn´t better than Shadow Power for Belial hmm. Even the punches hurt like hell.

Some tests against Ghom:
shuriken - spitfire - bait - archery - cull the weak (30% Strafe SoJ over 21% SoJ RF)
138,304,592 (04:16) - 72,790,856 (33:51) = 65,513,736 / 29.58333 = 2,214,549 dps
shuriken - punisment - bait - archery - cull - stalker (21% SoJ RF)
138,354,064 (07:00) - 82,165,736 (35:20) = 56,188,328 / 28.33333 = 1,983,118 dps
spitfire - punishment - bait - archery - cull - stalker (21% SoJ RF)
136,523,088 (00:30) - 78,743,656 (28:21) = 57,779,432 / 27.85000 = 2,074,665 dps
shuriken - spitfire - jagged - archery - cull - stalker (21% SoJ RF)
138,367,808 (02:44) - 86,616,080 (26:33) = 51,751,728 / 23.81667 = 2,172,921 dps

multipliers: 10.93-11.98

4 souls + 0 gruesome
83,053,224 (49:58) - 18,245,472 (86:26) = 64,807,752 / 36.46667 = 1,777,178 dps
160,410.45 unbuffed vs demon elites
multiplier: 11.08
3 souls + 0 gruesome + BBV + (Paranoia)
221,297,808 (41:21) - 134,734,624 (71:20) = 86,563,184 / 29.98333 = 2,887,044 dps
multiplier: 18

Soul to Waste is the way to go of course. Even without Gruesome Feast stacks WD deals unparalelled damage. GF itself could cause some trouble. Other than self boosting with dogs (is this even possible relatively fast without different gearsets?), we can´t rely on it against bosses like Azmodan and Diablo, it´s also difficult to pull off against Belial. Note sure about ubers.

We should be scared of the WD team running 2 lol.

An interesting read about the suspect best team composition.

I think that's what the barbs have talked about so far.
Reply Quote
Had the first few pages of the monk thread done, but Blizzard's website says that it had an invalid or restricted HTML code in it. Even though I did it exactly as I did the first two... May be a bit before I get back to the monk thread now.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
omg enremeit u rock, since u got wd and barb done i guess i will take a whack at the monk thread
Reply Quote
Wow Enremeit

Mate, you've just emboddied what this is all about :)
Reply Quote
Okay, I will start off the discussion with the things I have been thinking of:

1.Team comp
I personally think it is a good idea to do what you know so having 2x monks seems to make the most sense here.

Furthermore, the Act1 event, Core of Arreat event and Diablo (?) are all freeze-able which means a CM wiz is almost a must.

Lastly, I think a CoB WD is a pretty cheap source of massive massive massive DPS for pretty cheap.

This would let us gear up the CM wiz with a much larger portion of the gold.

The other option is a HotA barb in place of either the second monk or the WD because they have VERY high eDPS against single targets and are pretty tanky for the Azmo/Belial encounters.

My proposed Team Comps are:
2 monk 1 WD 1 Wiz
1 monk 1 WD 1 Wiz 1 baba
2 monk 1 baba 1 Wiz

I think the Wiz will need the most gold to hit the various CM breakpoints so we will need to work around that.

The first monk can probably be made for pretty cheap (shame Nirvana can't really be used with all the single-target stuff) around a WKL-Cookie-EP:Flesh Is Weak shell.

The second monk could be build around a tri-gen CW:Breaking Wave shell assuming gearing can be done for high DPS 2x 1h or a MUCH cheaper cookie-bells build with an insanely stat-stick oriented EF in offhand.

The Wiz would be cookie-CM (I need someone who knows how to make one of these because I am clueless)

The WD would be CoB because you can use a super high DPS skorn and they are REALLY cheap compared to other weapon-types.


2. People
If we end up going with a WD, Kim said he knows how to do that ... so I nominate him to be our WD. If we don't end up going with a WD, I still nominate Kim for being one of the monks.

We need some people who are pretty good at the AH to volunteer to buy stuff which I will happily re-reimburse them for from the coffers.

I also feel, if available, that Fitz would be an excellent candidate for the other Monk position. He has the skill and the "works well with others" mentality that fits this competition pretty perfectly.

Other than that, I don't know any monk/barbs or monk/wizards ... so come forth!

If you are going to have a 2nd WD, I think a 0Dog WD will be the way to go. The synergy that has with a CoB WD is insane. I'm not sure about barb in a predominantly single-target scenario.

If it is the case that most of the challenge are with enemies that cannot be knocked back, then maybe a cookie-bell monk would be good. I don't know if nirvana bell would work, since most of the challenge has to do with 1 or 2 major enemies at a time. A good WKL-cookie monk (or a tri-gen WKL monk) might not be a bad idea, since most of the challenge appears to be single-target anyway.

Oh, and as for suggestions... I think if you go with a 0Dog WD, baggins might be your man. I have some monks on my friends list who also run CM Wiz... I can suggest someone once I can figure out who they are. :)

I've mentioned some of this before, but my best general advice is that recruiting people who have the most time and cash will probably maximize your chances of success:

1. Ideally, you spend much more than 4B on your gear. Once you buy a piece, you keep buying more cost efficient ones and eventually ratchet down prices and ratchet up stats to a better and better set. If a team limits themselves to only 4B in spending, it's going to be rough when a better deal pops up after they've bought something. So rich people watching the AH constantly is ideal. It also allows you to try out lots of different gear sets and pick the best ones that cost less than 4B total.

2. Anyone on the forum snipes anything good at 1d10hr or later, you may want to ask them to lend that item and a screenshot to the team. It would be nice if everyone took a snapshot of the screen before using buyout on an item Druin could potentially use. Now would be a good time for everyone who wants to help to start practicing flipping.

3. Read the forums to get a good idea what other people are doing. Not only so you can copy the people who clearly have a better idea about their class, but so you can 1d10hr snipe the gear they want for yourself. Snipe it at 1d11hr if you've got rich teammates and you don't need it.

4. Defense is not going to matter that much. You want the absolute bare minimum spent on defense. You can make up for deaths by doing the run over again. This seems like it's mainly a DPS challenge. Having people on the team who have nothing better to do than do the same run over and over again is obviously an asset.

5. I think one buffing Monk is probably ideal. Just make sure he can maintain Overawe, CW, GL, spam and maybe even forbidden palace. Once you cross a certain low DPS threshold, it doesn't really matter if you keep going lower for more buffs and crowd control. It would be nice to have him contributing damage too, obviously, but the cash might better be spent elsewhere.

6. Is there a rule that says that you must have all four characters present in the game for each challenge? Might some challenges may be more efficient if you only geared up 3 characters. Probably not, but it's just a thought.

It should be noted that the main purpose of this competition is to be inclusive rather than exclusive which is why there is little to no personal-reward.

Anything we discuss can be seen by the other forums but their strats can been see by us as well.

I think it will do a relatively good job of exemplifying the point that, while we know a LOT about monks over here, each other class forum knows that much about their class! :D

It will be very interesting to see how the DH forum shapes up a team seeing as I currently don't know what DH's even do! :D

Sounds like the 1x monk team comp is getting a lot of attention. I must admit that seems pretty reasonable to me as well.

I believe HotA barbs are the highest single-target DPS in the game right now so we will have to weight that vs whatever buffs an additional class could bring (seeing as babas have very few useful team buffs).

I think I will cast my vote for:
1 monk
1 CoB WD
1 CM wiz
1 HotA barb

The monk can run something like this:

If we can do without serenity, awesome. But I have a feeling things are going to get fast and loose when we start fighting non-cc-able bosses.

This spec would allow the monk to use a SUPER cheap offhand EF for maximum damage.

A group composed of.. DW CS/DS Monk, CM Wiz, CoB WD, HotA/Rend (skorn) Barb sounds pretty wicked to me.

With the Monk running support and feeding the CM good things happen. Maybe squeeze in some combo strike in the build for more DPS as well.

A storm crow CM wiz is pretty cheap to gear, although an int crit mempo is actually really cheap compared to a str or dex one. I went the crit mempo route with my wiz alt. The perma-freeze you can get with the extra IAS and CC is fantastic, but probably only really shines during ubers. A stutter lock should be enough for this comp, so storm crow would be the helm of choice.

CoB WD do some crazy DPS, when they can stand still. Which for most aspects of this contest shouldn't be a problem. 0-Dog gear is actually going down in price with all the WDs going with the CoB builds. Probably the main issue isn't the price but the lag. A CM and 0-Dog both spamming is probably going to cause some major latency issues.

A rend and run barb with HotA also on the bar can thrash stuff pretty quick. Skorn is a must for this type of build. Fury management can be an issue though with a skorn on a hybrid build (no fury generator).

I'm a Monk at heart, but I run 'em all. I don't do much theory crafting. More into monster smashing. Probably some young bucks out there with quicker reaction times than my old butt. I actually remember the 80s haha. I am willing to help out in any way though.

Agree on the mantra thing.

Will change to Soothing ... not sure why I didn't think about that :P

I am still internally conflicted about the cookie-bells shell vs the cookie-SW:C shell.

I just don't see FoT:Q being enough spirit to spam bells, Overawe, CS and EP.

At least with cookie-SW:C you get to do damage WHILE gaining spirit.

I honestly think this will do more DPS than the cookie-bells spec:

You can sub out WotHF:BF + Combo for STI + Faith if you need more sustain and slightly less DPS.

I suppose we will have to test out this Rapid Fire DH thing ... I will look into it and talk to some DH's I know to see if they know what kind of eDPS top DH's are putting up.

An argument over Resolve:
Hey there,

I am trying to be as positive as possible here, but honestly, I am having some trouble with your generally antagonistic comments. I respect that you have strong opinions, that is awesome and fine, however, I would kindly ask you to present them in a less aggressive manner.

First of all, yes, I am responsible for posting that spec.

Second, it is not terrible. It is the most time-tested spec in the entire monk repertoire and is generally considered to be the most efficient non-WoL build.

Third, please, when possible, provide evidence for your comments. Saying something is "terrible" is very unhelpful. All it does is incite people to respond negatively.

My reasoning for that spec is as follows:
1. FoT:TC + SW:C + WotHF:BF + Combo is an extremely efficient and compact DPS package. It generates good spirit as long as you have some strong IAS gear and it does it's damage consistently while also generating resources so that you can use the more "supportive" parts of the kit.

2. EP:TfiW is extremely important for both group DPS AND the ability to 1 shot Ghom and Siege as well as elite packs as well as its ability to help spread the damage from single-target artists such as HotA barbs.

3. CS:SB, as pointed out by Fitz, allows for Guiding Light (an essential part of any support monk build) as well as being less costly than MoH while also providing utility support in the non-boss-fight portions of the challenge.

4. OWE is a strictly better eHP skill when on a budget than STI. If our budget can absorb switching the monk over to all-res gear, then STI is clearly better. Until that time, I am going to guess single-stack PSN res with Andy's + WH + 2x Inna's will be the best we can afford.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this and I hope we can move forward peaceably.

OK, here is one last thought that I have on why I think Resolve would be a better defensive passive over STI or OWE for the party.

If you run Resolve, all the other chars in the party can run with less mitigation gear and be built for more DPS.

Also, having a speedy char for certain situations does sound like a decent idea to improve on over-all time.

My only issue with resolve is the vast number of damage sources it simply doesn't mitigate.

We know it does nothing against many of the elite affixes and I would be concerned that it wouldn't do anything against many of the more deadly Uber/Boss skills as well.

For example, if it isn't decreasing the damage Ghom does with his Psn cloud then it isn't really helping in that instance.

Same for Azmo's pools, D's fire, Mhag's fairies, kulle's rockfall or Belial's floor-of-death.

These are the skills that tend to kill people and/or significantly impact clear speeds and these are the skills I would most like to mitigate against.

It would be moderately possible to test to see if resolve affects these skills.

We would also be running into the "what procs resolve" issue with some of the preposed specs.

It has been confirmed that SW doesn't Cyclones don't. I highly doubt that CS procs it.

My only issue with resolve is the vast number of damage sources it simply doesn't mitigate.

We know it does nothing against many of the elite affixes and I would be concerned that it wouldn't do anything against many of the more deadly Uber/Boss skills as well.

For example, if it isn't decreasing the damage Ghom does with his Psn cloud then it isn't really helping in that instance.

Same for Azmo's pools, D's fire, Mhag's fairies, kulle's rockfall or Belial's floor-of-death.

These are the skills that tend to kill people and/or significantly impact clear speeds and these are the skills I would most like to mitigate against.

It would be moderately possible to test to see if resolve affects these skills.

We would also be running into the "what procs resolve" issue with some of the preposed specs.

It has been confirmed that SW doesn't Cyclones don't. I highly doubt that CS procs it.

Baller response friend. Glad it was me misunderstanding your statement and not actual antagonism!
Thanks for reading what I wrote and thanks for the well thought out and clearly stated response.

I believe we can actually do the math for OWE vs STI as it comes down to purely a mitigation number.

I 100000% agree with you that, given a min/max position without a strict limit on budget, STI is certainly better than All-res. This is for the reasons you stated: you want more of the thing you have the least of.

However, the price on +all-res gear compared to the price on +armor and +single-res gear is astronomically different and, I think it is worth looking into the use of OWE over STI (if we even have to make that choice ... both is a good option too!) which may end up with higher mitigation for the relatively low budget we have to work with.

I do not know that it will, but once we start looking into pieces of gear and their average price, it should be fairly strait forward to figure out.

I will put it as a (OWE/STI) slot for now, and we can do the math later when we have hammered out the other details.

You can, but you would have to buy a fifth set of gear, watering down the other 4 sets. I'm thinking you need 4 solid classes that stay in the whole time. Alternates are for when the person playing the barb has a dentist appointment and he gives all the gear to another barb (at least that's how I understood it)

I also agree that it would be a good idea to peruse the AH and find which classes/specs will take up the most cash. I'm thinking you could build a relatively tanky CM wiz without a lot of DPS for super cheap, and make up all the DPS on the other three classes. That would also enable the CM to use slow time: Time warp (20% damage to enemies) without fear of dying if he didn't teleport out of something in time.

All I know is that my WD, who uses 4 crafted slots, and about ~300m or less worth of gear can churn out pretty quick 4-6 mil crits depending on the buffs active. I think if you give the WD like 1.5b and the CM like .5b you would end up with more damage and mitigation overall for the pair. Also, you might be able to build a rediculous CM that could hit the 3.0 BP if you really wanted to.

Edit: Also, the OP got locked (lol) I don't know if another will get posted.

Edit 2: Here is the spec I came up with for a CM wiz: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VghXYO!bgZ!YZcaZZ

Now, this is pretty similar to what I use, but a few things could be changed around. The blur passive could be switched to cold blooded, increasing the CM wizards dps by 20%. Alternatively, the storm armor passive could also be swapped for energy armor with 5% crit rune. (This is generally considered a better option on single target mobs since there would be less SA procs since there would be less crits) I'd have to do some testing on the armor spell, but Energy armor is probably be a better choice. And, if I can get 60%+ crit on gear locking up ubers would be way easier.

Could also do the IAS bubble, but I figured that 20% would be better overall, esp if there is a WD in the group. Don't wanna throw off his mana.

Ok, just to sum up again. Here is the spec for CM wiz that I came up with, followed by the spec for WD that I came up with, along with explanations. The WD spec is dependent on the CM wiz.


Slow time: Time Warp: 20% team damage
Energy Armor: Pinpoint Barrier: Extra crit which means more freeze

Gearwise, I'm thinking we put the wiz on a super budget and just hit the necessary IAS breakpoints and minimum defensive breakpoints for CM. Mine currently has 5k armor with pinpoint, 620 AR with 44k hp (no mempo) along with 1437 LOH at the 2.72 BP. I solod Azmo mp10 with no issuse and did Belial and could take 1-2 meteors and be able to heal through it.

For the Witch Doctor. This gets a bit tricky since most of the things we are doing involve like 50% bosses and 50% trash. I'm thinking about keeping soul harvest, but I know that during my uber runs, besides getting stacks, It's only really effective in the SK fight since you can get more than 2 stacks.


I came up with this. It utilizes all of the group buffs. Hex can only really be used on ZK, and I haven't grouped a lot with a CM wiz on my WD, but I think the hex CC gets overridden by the CM freeze, so hex might not work with a CM. In that case it can be dropped for something else like fetishes for some extra damage.

Mass confuse and BBV can be used at the beginning of the fight for snapshot, but the WD probably shouldn't refresh MC because it will drop his damage down to cast it, but this could require some testing.

The one thing I wasn't sure about were the passives. Usually when I do ubers I use these passives because I don't really need Grave Injustice or Gruesome feast since I'm not really getting kills when spanking an Uber boss. One thing for passives is you could toy with pierce the veil with blood ritual and maybe an SOJ(with those 3 things and skorn I could run bats for 47 seconds without using spirit walk. With SW I could get it going for probably 3 times longer. The only issue would be going oom from recasting due to repositioning), but this would probably only work with a skorn WD. (And speaking of Skorn CoB WD, it might be our cheapest option to use Skorn and not DW to save some money. And Skorn can give twice the LS, making the WD less killable and wont have to move out of as much crap, lowering dps.)

Unlike the CM wiz, the WD will have to have some testing with different skills to find which skills work best in which boss fights or scenarios. And I think WD has great potential for group buffs. Since I don't expect these fights to last more than a minute, a 20s BBV drop is huge!

I by no means am a pro, but I play a good deal, so I'd like to know what other people think about these specs

They're doubting us :(
I did some test runs. I don't think a CM wiz is a good idea for Belial or even Azmo really. On those fights, if you can do enough DPS fast enough, you can kill them before the hard parts. Cm doesn't prevent azmo from making pools or belial from meteors.

CM might be necessary for ubers, but the only fight I could see it really helping on is SK since he seems to be the one with the most random spike damage. Maybe we could have an alternate set for another WD that the CM could swap with on belial and azmo.

Food for thought.

I tend to agree. Only reason to CM would be if you came to the conclusion Barbs/Wiz already have in the bag and you're willing to run a nirvana monk in there. It's viable with a CM that can perma freeze in middle (still wont be all the time but close) monk needs to know why nirvana works and how to proc when not standing next to each other.

I figure best monks will have STI (or OwE) and not have to use both. I tend to assume GL since I want to take overawe, might as well get all the debuffs outta the way and just roll EP. If 2 the other one could run a tri/dual gen with combo strike transgression ( i would suggest EP over serenity ) Two EP's are better than one. Especially if using Essence Burn =P Nah but would Two EP's of different runes stack heres why I ask:

The flesh is weak debuff wont I assume.. so the next best rune to hopefully get kill while still up is extended time. Impending dooM??

I been reading all the challenge threads in each class forum and I'm beginning to think that we are all trying to win at no matter what expense (gear swap snapshot in particular) but are forgetting the end result of this challenge.

20 billion worth of sets are going to be given to the community. Probably most if not all are going to be given to low geared and new players. Do we really want to promote gear swap snapshot exploit to the community? Is that how we are going to teach new players that this is how it is to play the game?

Even though the challengers are not going to use Macro (as it is against ToC and not allowed by Morpheus), by providing gears for snapshot, there is a side effect result of promoting the use macros to make gear swap easier. People can potentially get banned for this. Is this what we want?

Also Blizzard will definitely be watching this and what if they decide to hot fix this because it has become such a hot topic? Then all that gear will be worthless to the players. They probably be better off using their current gear than what we are going to provide them.

Snapshotting BBV or any buffs is unavoidable and is going to happen. That is part of game mechanics until Blizzard decides to change, but we as a community can avoid gear swap snapshot.

Finally, this is MP10. IMO we are suppose to give gears away that are capable of doing mp10 solo. We are talking about making DH very glass cannon because we have CM wiz to freeze everything, or a Monk to go all out support with no dps. How are these going to be on par when they play solo mp10? How about in public games where it's all random setups? Last time I saw a support monk with sledgefist and about 20k dps come in a mp10 public game, he was immediately vote kicked right away.

IMO, we should build a balanced team of DPS and EHP for each individual class that is in the team so that they are capable of doing mp10 solo. Yes we may not win, but at least our gears will actually work for the players that are going to be receiving them and that would be enough satisfaction for me.

@Druin, I tried that build you mentioned in OP and it is hard to generate enough spirit with FoT:TC to keep up the spirit spender skills going. Amiar mentioned that I didn't have any spirit regen gears and even with 4+ from helm and soj, is that enough? Is there something I'm not doing right to keep up the spirit? Or maybe I'm not managing the spirit well? I'm using a 2H with about 2.2 aps buffed, maybe that is too low to run that setup?

I was messing with DH last night with Amiar and trying to tank the Belial's meteor with smokescreen, gloom, and guardian turret with my current gear was a no go. I'm able to take hits 1 by 1 but when 2 goes off at the same time I'm for sure dead. SS is only 1.5 sec with a 3 second CD so I am vulnerable for 1.5 and meteor chains too much for SS to be effective it seems. I'm thinking we should run a more mobile setup for that boss. Stutter steppin with both Wiz and DH while using hydra/turret to assist in damage. Or maybe that isn't needed if we can down Belial before his meteors, but I am still not sure how much DPS the team can have as a whole with a 4B budget.

I'll probably do some checking on gearing costs for both DH/Monk. As for monk, are we running DW? 2h? Monk is also doing dps yes?

Amiar again:
@fitz I think for Ubers and Diablo we should run a monk, CoB WDx2, and a CM wizard(500m set)

For belial and azmo and diablo I'm thinking monk, CoB WDx2 and either DPS wizard or a completely different class who can do decent dps for 500m

I really think with enough practice we wouldn't need a CM wiz and would be able to run a hota barb or something else.

If we don't run 2x COB WDs all the time I would strongly suggest having the CM wiz swap out for a second CoB WD on belial and azmo, and maybe diablo. That way we could use some pieces of gear and all the gems. If we did that though we would need another full time DPS slot. I think Hota barb would be good if we got some really good deals on the gear.

I vote that within 48 hours we need to come up with the finalized team comp for each full encounter (azmo, diablo, ubers and belial), who will be playing them, and then the ideal budget.

My own WD is built with like 500m gold not counting crafts, so you can definitely get north of 180-190k dps with solid EHP for a bil. A CM wiz you can get decent enough gear for 500m.

Comp 1:
Monk: 1.5b
CoB WD: 1b
CoB WD: 1b
CM WiZ: 500m (Can maybe throw some extra cash at the CM for a different wizard spec. What's the highest damage spec for wizard? Archon? We need to find out if wiz is viable for bosses. They can also drop a full time 20% damage bubble with the CM passive)

Comp 2:
Monk: 1.15 b
CoB WD: 700m
Hota Barb(or alternate full time DPS): 1.15b
CM wiz/CoB alternate: 500m for CM and 500m for CoB (maybe less if some gear can double up)

I'm just throwing these out there. And this is all without snapshots in mind. The advantage of the WDs is you can stack BBV or chain BBV. BBV+Insanity Hota barb and monk buffs=the first 20 seconds the boss is gonna get owned.

Tomorrow I can hop on the AH and snapshot some solid WD items and build a dprogress set to see how we're looking.

@JCO: Me and Vnak were talking about clever ways to shave time from our runs and even though it might not save as much as snapshotting, there are other, legit ways, to go fast.

If a CM is included, they need to be running those 35% buffs, no question.

Conflagration also buffs party dps by 10%, but is considerably harder to work in due to needing source of fire damage on the wizard (meteor, mammoth hydra, firebolts, etc.). I kinda like the idea of fire hydra over the SNS teleport spot since it lasts a long time and won't disrupt freeze strength much.

Conflagration is purportedly also triggered by Firewalkers. I'm not a fan of conflag with firewalkers because it kills my nat's combo, reducing freeze strength and survivability.

EDIT: More than the potential 45% buff, the major bonuses of the CM wiz will be 1) to allow others to run glassy, 2) to immobilize targets so that dps skill always hit their mark and no one has to stop dps to move, and 3) to immobilize targets on top of each other. The 3rd point cannot be emphasized enough. Getting both ubers on top of each other nearly doubles freeze strength and multiplies dps skills and resource regeneration for many classes.

Potential tips for immobilizing ubers on top of each other include 1) starting on side of kulle that is opposite siege so that siege walks into a freeze on top of kulle, 2) starting on rakanoth on opposite side of ghom so that ghom wanders into freeze on top of rakanoth.

If the damage type is stated in the tooltip, that is the damage it does and nothing more. It has been tested many times and explosive blast does physical type damage only.

Also don't forget that if you do choose to add another skill that does fire aoe damage (hydra, meteor, ect) that it needs to be cast at least once every 3 seconds and that is eating up potential twister casts and delaying freezes by costing an attack turn.

I think your spec choice will also vary tremendously depending on how survivable you want the wiz and how much damage you want the cm wizard to do.

This spec will freeze well and provide two strong debuffs, but it will require an ample amount of gold to make it very tanky and do good damage, but it will move slow because of not having teleport.

This spec will have a higher defensive requiremnet to come from gear alone and have 5% CC less, but it will have ample movement with teleport:

If you don't care how much dps the wizard does, but just want him to freeze with the best of them while standing in 5 poison pools while frozen...use this spec:

You have to know what stats the wizard really has though before you can choose an appropriate spec for him to survive.

Hey Druin, first let me say that I'm really looking forward to working with you in this contest. Monk is my 2nd character and I've used a number of your builds in the past. Many thanks :)

I just though I'd mention if a spell does any type of elemental damage (including physical), then no elemental bonus from items takes effect. Every single skill in the wd arsenal will change damage output to some elemental form. This makes it impossible* to trigger Bad Medicine unless you also include a spell which does poison damage - gearing won't help at all. I know barbs have a few skills that simply do weapon damage (not physical), so they can equip a cold soj and get the benefits. A wd can't.

I don't know wiz mechanics well, but I would assume that the explosive blast converts any damage into physical form, not fire form. So a fire soj won't help, and neither will fire damage from a Chant's weapon. A fireball from SC/HF will trigger conflagration.

I'm not positive on this...perhaps we could get some more confirmation?

As others have already said, breaking the channel is terrible for a wd and should be avoided when possible. There are a number of spells that don't break channeling, including Soul Harvest, Hex, Horrify and Spirit Walk. In terms of triggering Bad Medicine, I think the best option is using a garg (stinker).

*The main exception to this is a Manajumas set, which creates a poison cloud ~6 yards around you at all times. But poison soj will not trigger Bad Medicine, and neither will a weapon that does poison damage. It is possible to have SoJ trigger bad medicine, but you need to punch the target, not use a spell.


I reevaulated my opinion on CMass after running with a truly decent one again. They help in ubers quite a bit. Unfortunately it may slow down the other fights.

First time I used all black's.. ridiculous damage reduction as one would imagine but I was trying to maximize the team's damage to do a comparison to my normal runs.
With Cmass freezing everything together and fairly permanently ** as best as I've seen in a good minute.
-Inner Sanctuary - 15% damage bonus
-The flesh is weak *** realizing this is the best monk spell.
-Cyclone strike - breeze for GL
-Crippling wave - breaking wave +12% damage taken
GL, STI, Beacon (obv prob didnt need to be using beacon)... suggest maybe spirit regen or owe.

*Sidenote DH with calamity there so damage multiplier total was

1.35 x 1.98 = 2.67 .. oh right forgot Slam Dance whilst in it 3.267 ... 326.7 % damage for 30 seconds.

Also in my regular farming build I've learned to do more than 1 EP right off the bat after hitting nirvana. It truly helps to get as many in especially with Essence Burn.. achem ! I mean the flesh is weak.

Nubtro goodies again:
1. If you want to test defensive skills just go brawl. It makes testing much easier given the environment and a partner tester (not a monster). I did this to check how Guardian Turret, Numbing Traps and Gloom stack. They´re multiplicative. Damage * 0.85 * 0.8 * 0.85. Btw. only Jagged Spikes seems to trigger Numbing Traps out of Caltrops runes because it´s the only one that deals damage (I think Monks have a similar passive).

2. As for the whole physical damage skills issue. Until now I was pretty sure weapon damage = physical damage. Simply because there is no "weapon damage" resistance. Every attack that doesn´t deal elemental damage deals physical damage.

But that doesn´t have to mean weapon damage = physical when it comes to "adds x% to elemental damage" like a cold SoJ (if you read Wyatt´s response to my question in the second Q&A - surprisingly even that affix doesn´t work as inteded, he stated that the new items will probably roll the changed version that buffs the corresponding element not black weapon damage "as" the element). That part of calculating damage might follow a different mechanics.

Barbs also have "damage as physical", for example Rend. I could´ve sworn my cold damage SoJ was snaring stuff with Rend in the past but I never play with defensive messages on these days unless I really have to test something.

I just checked and Rend indeed doesn´t snare with a cold SoJ.

So the conclusion is that if a tooltip says a certain skill deals damage "as physical", it turns all damage into physical including "adds x% to weapon damage" and any elemental weapon damage on the weapon itself. This is different from simple "weapon damage" skills which apply all the elements you stack (black part of weapon damage as physical, elemental part of weapon damage as itself and all types of "adds x% to elemental" you equip).

Did this really just erase the message when I hit submit I worked on for an hour..

I curse your name blizz.

I had a looooooong thought out response to deciding to not go with a barb, and I went into
pros/cons of each class.

Not going to rewrite whole thing even tho I found it very comical. Here are major points:

I emotionally and logically don't think a barb should be one but I'm gonna go with empirical evidence:


2 Barbs in the group and the monk runs a very similar set up to mine in ubers.
Under 15 seconds for Ghom/Raka is amazing.

To paraphrase Druin in regards to VoA DE farming, 'It's not like I'm going to outdamage a Hota Barb [he probably said baba] in an elite fight.'

Arguments against have to do mostly with no group buff and gear is expensive. Adversely an argument for WD/Wiz:

WD CoB need Cmass and we already have a good WD.
Int gear is way too cheap.

DH only benefit in my eyes is Marked and Thunderball for stun. Adding another WD will do more damage.

(Our buffs + Slam Dance) x (Our Debuff + Hex)

I believe the idea is that we could suit up the monk with sledge fist and make him into a zDPS support then let the other 3 classes all do massive DPS with a non-gear-swap-snapshot on CoBx2 AND RF.

I was playing a bit with Nyan yesterday and we did a 2 man zDPS taxi-monk (me) and snapshot RF DH (him) in MP10 VotA and it went pretty well. I would find the elite and as SOON as he teleported in, I would soothing breeze + overawe so his RF snapshotted the 2 buffs then CC the elite the best I could with CS and it was awesome.

I could see something like this working well for our team because the monk doesn't have to spam overawe due to the snapshot... could do something like this:

Use sledge (with amethyst) + BT suit for LoH goodness + shield (for more CHC). Then stack CHC IAS and cast overawe + soothing once or twice total and spend the rest of the fight perma-locking the mobs.

This is just the concept in my head but I think I will build this suit sometime this week and see how it plays out.

I think those are the most important topics they talked about.
Edited by Enremeit#1915 on 7/22/2013 5:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Should I try looking through the DH forums???
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
07/22/2013 05:24 PMPosted by Enremeit
Should I try looking through the DH forums???

holy crap do u wanna be wiz coordinator, ur doing a way better job than me today :)
the dhs did do a fair bit of theorycrafting but they also trolled like crazy

so its up to u, i was honestly not gonna bother just because i barely have time to go through a thread full of good info, and certainly dont have the time to sift through info and garbage
Reply Quote
I'd be more than willing to help, but I'm about to be very busy in the evenings, and then almost completely AFK for a week with no internet. I'll do what I can to help before then though.
Reply Quote
@ SteelPhantom

Mate, can you pop over to the OP in Oz when u have a moment? A couple of questions to consider.

@ Enremeit

Just wow :)
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
07/22/2013 07:23 PMPosted by Enremeit
I'd be more than willing to help, but I'm about to be very busy in the evenings, and then almost completely AFK for a week with no internet. I'll do what I can to help before then though.

man i was just poking fun at the lack of work ive done for team wiz in comparison to urself
truly awesome work man
Reply Quote
@Wizard Team - I'm impressed! You're embracing what this challenge is all about. We're supposed to learn from each other not just stay in our own little comfort zone and pat ourselves on the back. You guys have probably the best chance at having the perfect group composition because you've not only utilized your own "think tank" but each of the other classes as well. Kudos! :)
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
atm our shoppers are piehole, wiz, rv - wd, void - whole team
we can now start buyin items for the challenge. would it be possible for u guys to exchange emails or something so that gear isnt duplicated and hopefully as a team we can take advantage of off-peak bids (RV, maybe void, possibly a few others)

oh also im not online but i left a broadcast with ways to get in touch with me
Edited by SteelPhantom#1820 on 7/23/2013 9:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 6,443
View profile
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
ok with no emails or any msgs being sent my way so far
im thinking of doing this

pie 200mil now
void 2.25 bil for barb and monk
robart 1bil for the wd
thus leaving a 550mil slush fund to improve who ever needs improvement

i am assuming that is how the shopping is being performed
if the gold needs to be split up amongst more ppl that is ok as well
if yall want me to hold the gold and then pay yall back when u finish the sets is another option

void u should have enough to fully gear the barb, and i really hope ull be able to get enough mit and sustain on the monk with that gold

robert and piehole im gonna short each of u guys so feel free to leave one or two pieces of gear unbought if added gold is needed and we can dip into the slush fund
Reply Quote
Ok....200M is cool. I'll kinda plan for 300 in the end. See how far I get.

I did send you an email earlier. Didn't come through? I have not received an email indicating that it has bounced.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,376
View profile
Ok....200M is cool. I'll kinda plan for 300 in the end. See how far I get.

I did send you an email earlier. Didn't come through? I have not received an email indicating that it has bounced.

didnt get email pie, sorry

gave rv 1 bil, he says its very likely that he will need 200mil more
so atm it looks like we have a 350mil slush fund
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Explain (256 characters max)