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I thought I understood them. But honestly, I'd like to believe that I don't understand them as much as I thought I did.
I'm gonna use Shock Collar, Chemical Burn, and Cinder Arrow as the examples here.
Let's suggest that the DH has 1000 life on hit. How is life on hit calculated? Is it, a 100% chance for X life per hit? And then the proc coefficient of the attacks you're using then come into play? Or is it just a flat on and off switch that's always on?
I'm curious because, with the Shock Collar example, with 1000 life on hit you return 1600 obviously - and 2000 for Chem and 1300 for Cinder. This is something that is known and understood. It's dealing with larger numbers though for the life on hit example. If the DH were to fire off 1 single tick of a Rapid Fire attack he's only returning 167 life per.
It's easy to see, and simple to test, there's the green number that shows up. In the case of life regen, ticking by the half second, if your life regen is an odd number,a decimal doesn't show up. One of the ticks gets the higher value.
Obviously it seems as though "on crit" attacks are different, right? But, they're using the same proc coefficient from the attacks.
This leads me to the next part I'm wondering. How does the game round numbers, is it only for specific things or is it just across the board? If we were to get two Hatred regen items that give me 1.33 Hatred per sec, then we'd be returning 3 Hatred per sec, correct? Or is it just 2 for Hatred regen, or is it 2.66(on the stats page it will show the decimal, but when you hover over it it's a whole number and not a decimal.
This has me curious about how Nightstalker actually works. If we were to crit once with Chemical Burn do we return 2 Discipline? I've never actually just looked at my discipline by the number, to test it. So with Shock Collar is it 1.6 discipline on crit? So if the DH were to crit twice is it really a return of 3.2 discipline or just 2? If he crits 2 times with Cinder Arrow does he receive 3 discipline instead of 2?
If this is the case, with how Rapid Fire works for example am I getting .167 discipline on crit? And does this mean the DH has to crit 3 or 4 times to receive 1 discipline, or is it just a flat out 16.7% chance to return 1 discipline, and if the DH were fortunate on those 3-4 crits it would be 3-4 discipline?
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 7/25/2013 6:07 PM PDT
For LoH it is like you said, it has an internal proc coefficient of 100%. The actual return rates are scaled down by proc coefficient, but since it always activates it doesn't matter what each individual hit's proc chance is, only the total proc chance. A skill with two 50% proc hits will function exactly the same as a skill that hits once for 100% proc.
For other things, such as skills proc with crits, the internal proc coefficient is not 100%. They are handled in an all or nothing fashion that is directly proportional to the skill's proc coefficient. So in the case of nightstalker it checks whether you crit first and then decides whether to return 1 discipline or no discipline based on the proc chance of the skill you used. A skill with two 50% proc hits will, on average, function the same way as a skill with 100% proc but due to the all or nothing nature of skills like nightstalker you can either get 0, 1, or 2 discipline from having 2 50% procs vs a guaranteed 1 discipline from the 100% proc (assuming you crit of course).
As far as rounding goes I am inclined to believe that there is no rounding or minimal rounding. Hatred regen displays up to two decimals, and is one of the few stats that actually gets measured in decimals. I remember someone posted in the rapid fire tick frequency thread that the system actually rounds in your favor, but that was literally dealing with like 6 decimal place rounding so it probably isn't very significant.
Thanks for the reply.
So I suppose it's working as I already figured it was. Which was why I was hoping that it didn't, because we're basically losing out.
I was hoping that it "rolled over"
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 7/25/2013 6:55 PM PDT
This is my list of round ups
LoH (Life on Hit) proc coefficient,
No skill = 100% proc coefficient
And the ratio is reduced depending on your attacking AoE. Impale is a single target attack so it has a 100% proc rate. LoH proc “on hit” so each time your attack land on a target you gain Life equal to the amount you have geared multiplied by the proc coefficient of the skill.
Cinder Arrow hit with the arrow and burn with the fire = 2 hits
0.65 + 0.65 = 1.30
Shock Collar hit with the chain and electrocute with the lightning = 2 hits
0.80 + 0.80 = 1.60
Chemical Burn hit with the knife and cut in with bleed (physical) = 2 hits
1.00 + 1.00 = 2.00
the dot damage following the initial hit does not “hit” the target for a second time but continues it damage over time, so you don’t get extra life return afterwards.
Life Steal work like a dot attack so it has 60 tick per frame but will only output its result per half a second (same mechanic as Life Regeneration).
I have no way to test how NS but I’m assuming that the number is controlled by the proc coefficient because it is similar to Into the Fray and Critical Mass.
Critical Hits have “a chance to” generate
Now this is different from APoC. APoC is 100%, it does not depend on your proc coefficient (someone can correct me here, but I gain my AP way faster than the cooldown and my cc is around 30%).
Why I assume that is related to the proc coefficient is because every time you crit you don’t get 1 discipline, but you might get 1 discipline. But critically hit is not an “on hit” mechanics. I’m 99.8% sure on this one, and ActionKungfu you corrected me to believe “on crit” does not equal “on hit” (check patch 1.04). I always thought Jagged Spike do not crit anymore after they remove its chance to trigger procs.
But each time you critically hit on 1 target you have the chance to return 1 discipline. I will need to do more testing and comeback to this topic (best to test this with a barb because you don’t gain any Fury when you don’t do anything).
The system does not have a rounding system. It takes all decimals and applies them to every calculation.
For example, if you have 243 LoH and you hit with 0.50 proc coeff then you gain 121 or 122 when it is displayed but you will always get 121.5, hitting twice at once will always be 243.
Let’s take a look at CCR. In inferno you can perma freeze anything because you have freeze duration of 3 seconds. It will take a whole 7 seconds before the elite gain 65% CCR, but even at 65% it will still be frozen for 1.05 seconds. With our 1.5 seconds stun it will still take us 7 seconds to give the target 65% CCR but you will need at least twice the attack speed to keep it perma stun because your stun duration is 0.525 seconds at 65%.
A good way to test will be to use perfectionist and lay Caltrop in town. You will get to a point where you seem to have enough Discipline to active the skill (on the resource pool) but you can’t lay anything down until a couple milliseconds later.
Hope I answer some of your confusion.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 7/25/2013 7:40 PM PDT
As far as I know the game mechanics, the same procc. coefficient governs two different things.
It will determine either
a) how much of a given effect will indeed occur on procc, but the procc occurs 100% of the time. I know that LoH and APoC fall into this category. That means each hit will generate life and each crit will generate arane. How much life or arcane is generated depends on the procc. coefficient, i.e. your value on gear will be multiplied by procc. coefficient for each hit or crit.
b) if the effect occurs at all, but when it occurs the effect is 100% granted. As far as I knows this concerns skills like Into the Fray, Critical Mass and Nightstalker that say "each Crit has a _Chance_ to do XXX". This _Chance_ is indeed the respective procc coefficient of the skill in question.
I gathered this information from several sources in forums and they are consistent to my own findings, but I do not claim to be 100% right on this. I am 100% sure my information about LoH is correct, as I did see a YT tutorial that showed this and proofed it to be true. It was in German, but if anyone is interested I could try to find it and link it.
just got myself a severe headache . . . . . .
after 3 re-reads and more headache,
i.e Proc coeff: 0.8 = Proc chance 80%
On LOH 1000: will ALWAYS give 800 hp per hit.
On Nightstalker: if crit, there is 80% chance Nightstalker will proc., if it does u get 1 disc. otherwise, 0.
On HA pierce: 80% chance it will check for pierce proc, if it does .. there's 50% chance it will pierce. Or the 80% is completely irrelevant (flat 50% pierce chance)?
pretty close eh?
Edited by CLOUD#6403 on 7/25/2013 10:17 PM PDT
So essentially, the keyword or phrase here would be "chance to" which then changes the rules on proc.
@Kirus: yeah I remember that, but at the same time a couple of weeks ago someone mentioned that skills such as Shock, Cinder, and Chem, the proc chance is immediate and not over the dot. So for Cinder as an example it's 1.3 immediately and not .65 on the arrow and .65 on the fire. HOWEVER something like that would have to be tested, as the final arrow would have to be the kill while you've taken damage and see if you return 1.3 of a life on hit amount or if it's .65 since, the initial arrow would kill and the fire dot would never take place.
Thinking about this I'm really disappointed in the "chance to" procs. It's not favorable in the slightest.
Also, if the game's system doesn't deal with the rounding of numbers, this sort of takes the piss on Perfectionist, doesn't it? If I dropped down Carved Stakes with Perfectionist, is it not 3.6 Discipline or does it just remain 4 Discipline regardless? Or if I drop down 2 then it's 7 Discipline instead of 8?
How about Mortal Enemy? I'm assuming that since it doesn't say "chance to" that each arrow from Rapid Fire is granting .501 Hatred? Or is this all of a sudden falling into the same category of "all or nothing" anyway and a mishap on the tooltip?
I'm just frustrated at the left overs.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 7/25/2013 10:14 PM PDT
It is a instant 2 hits. I have tested. The best place to do this is in Act1. All those iron door takes 2 hit to break apart. And if you use one of those 3 skills you only need to attack once. the dot does not proc loh, only the hit will proc, but to active the dot on the mob it must first "hit". I think my wording is a bit off but
for Cinder Arrow you will see 130% loh and it is because you gain 2x65% they just add up just like if you use bola on 3 mobs you gain more than just 50% it is 50% per hit per target so 150% when you have 3 in range.
With the 10% reduction on perfectionist it is
14 -> 12.6
6 -> 5.4
4 -> 3.6
so 2 Carved Stakes is 7.2 and not 7 or 8.
but your discipline pool will not show the decimal number. I had a thread
Why are you asking this? I just saw your name in my thread :)
I think these need to be redo if they do follow the same proc rate as LoH.
... have a chance to... need to be a fixed number.
The number could be 50%, 40%, 35%, 25%, 20%, or 15%. But it should not be a dependency by skill, when you are already battling with the chance to critically hit.
Assume 50% cc and use HA-CA than will I get 5 discipline in 1 second if my aps is 2.01?
0.5 x 2.01 x 0.65 + 0.5 x 2.01 x 0.65 = 1.3065 ~= 1 discipline
if 100% cc (shsh) then 1 x 2.01 x 0.65 x 2 = 2.613 ~= 3 discipline
but if each attack is 2 hits the highest possible return should be 4 discipline.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 7/25/2013 10:48 PM PDT
Mortal enemy is like LoH, has 100% chance to activate with the amount of hatred generated scaled down by the proc coefficient. The easiest way to test this is with rapid fire. If it gave the full 3 hatred regardless of proc coefficient you'd gain hatred no matter how high your AS speed is, which is not the case. If it had a chance to return 3 hatred vs 0 hatred based on proc coefficient your hatred globe would fluctuate, which again doesn't happen. Back when I had a calamity and about 2.5 APS MFD would just freeze my hatred globe.
It's because I just needed to reconfirm. It's like I said at the start of the thread, I thought I understood procs, but maybe not as much as I thought I did. Which the latter I feel is a better position to be in, as then there's always something to learn.
It would've been much better if the 1 discipline worked like life on hit, so the procs were just a portion of. Lend itself to some more reliability. I honestly can't stand all of the RNG in this game, it's just well past the point of too much. <- we already have to deal with the min/max of our own weapon damage, but then crit chance and min/max range of crit damage.
As it stands, if it really is all or nothing, we're basically getting robbed Discipline on proc rollover repeatedly. Hardly worth the risk/reward to me. I'd rather go for 2 yellow hits on Bola to get 1 discipline guaranteed, over the chance of getting 2 from the yellow hits but on an RNG basis. It's just too much. Right now it's just all we've got, and I brute force my chances with attack speed, the same as someone that obsesses over repeated farming runs(to get !@#$ty items).
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 7/25/2013 11:46 PM PDT
ROFL .. are you obsessing over s#$@$#ty procs?
At times I find myself punished for trying to manage my discipline / hatred. The game rewards excess and spam. Those that carefully meter out their resource just do less with more effort.. unfair IMO..
It's a good thing this game ain't a competition then, that's all I can really say. Next time I log on, I want to show you all the micro of my Ballistics build LOL
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