Diablo® III

Diablo 3 needs "power-up" quests like Diablo 2 did

Posts: 517
07/26/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Grimiku
I think the heart of what you're mentioning (based your feedback, and others) is that Diablo III could use more things to do once you've completed Inferno difficulty.

No, in this case I don't think it's just that simple.

What OP mentioned is a very specific idea that I personally would love to see present on a surprisingly widespread scale.

OP is talking about permanent character boosts that can't be sourced anywhere else, from completing special game content.

That's different from 'more generic post-inferno content'. It's not even restricted to post inferno! You could do it during the game if you want, or go back later if you didn't.

What you'd really be after, to cover both sides, is a range of special content, some during the game, and some going beyond inferno. All with exclusive, permanent bonuses.

Like Median XL.
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07/26/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Grimiku
Diablo 3 would have more longevity if Act I normal had an optional quest that granted you +1 Strength (depending on class) permanently and the same optional quest on Inferno granted you +4 Strength permanently.


Thank you for sharing Diablo III feedback, and your ideas on side quests. I think the heart of what you're mentioning (based your feedback, and others) is that Diablo III could use more things to do once you've completed Inferno difficulty. We're working on adding some variety for players who have completed Inferno difficulty, but we've also heard players mention that the Hell difficulty feels redundant. We're looking at ways to adjust what it takes to get to Inferno as a result. Hopefully, the sum total of those changes means we'll be adding interesting variety, and longevity to the end game, while keeping the path along the way fun.

Here is a reply from Wyatt to Flux, when asked about the possibility of removing the Hell difficulty, so that you have some context and insight.

Wyatt Cheng: A related question to that is, 1-30 the first time through normal is interesting, maybe the first time because of the story. maybe the 2nd time through it’s a different class and you’re doing different skills. Maybe the pacing feels right. maybe it’s even interesting further down since the challenge holds up and your loot/reward acquisition rate stays high and feels right.

But then kind of like what you’re saying, I don’t know if it’s specifically NM and Hell that’s the issue. More that you really want to get to Inferno and you’ve got a long road ahead of you and it’s very predictable and very much the same. Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer.


Guys just give us proper character progress please...

This preset skill and stat system is the root cause of all the problems you are discribing...

Don't turn it into an MMO, let us make many builds instead :)
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Those are just some of the things I expected D3 to include.

Instead, you get a lot of snake oil, and failed game design buzzwords. Yes Travis, tell me again how you logically excised all of the anti-fun elements from your product.
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Bring back the skill runes blizz talked about during the development of D3. Give them out as rewards for new, extremely hard sub quests and give higher level runes based on normal, nightmare, hell, and inferno.

It would allow for players to permanently upgrade every character in a different way.
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07/26/2013 04:24 PMPosted by SirCoconuts
@Grimiku: The topic of redundancy about NM and Hell difficulty has a simple cause. At level 43 a player can gear with "Reduced Level Requirement 17" gear and can easily have 20k+ damage at level 43. The reduced level requirement modifier has made Hell obsolete. This modifier is cheap and can been gotten on AH items for very little gold.


This is very true, but on it's own 4 difficulties feel awfully redundant since inferno was nerfed. Reduced level req just makes it even worse, specially with MP levels. The affix should be deleted
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Wyatt Cheng: A related question to that is, 1-30 the first time through normal is interesting, maybe the first time because of the story. maybe the 2nd time through it’s a different class and you’re doing different skills. Maybe the pacing feels right. maybe it’s even interesting further down since the challenge holds up and your loot/reward acquisition rate stays high and feels right.

But then kind of like what you’re saying, I don’t know if it’s specifically NM and Hell that’s the issue. More that you really want to get to Inferno and you’ve got a long road ahead of you and it’s very predictable and very much the same. Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer.


This is the bad answer. Basically saying devs are too lazy to make the game interesting so they made is fast so you can do it over and over again. This laziness just reminds us why things never get done by devs in this game.

Whiles OP's suggestion is impossible because the game will never issue us permanent stat points, the suggestion that rewards be more than some insignificant exp and gold is very valid. At least let players choose the rewards.
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Yeah lvl 60+ players need more to do enstead of running the game over and over again.

i mean ubers is fun and everything but we need more thats the only thing you've guys added for max lvl chars, can we atleast have an extra act where all of the bosses from the previous games come back because of the black soul stone breaking or something in that area?

Or atleast an option where we can just join and start killing things, idk if im speaking for everyone but i want EXP and lots of it but when hit 100 para what am i going to do with my favorite class, just ditch it and start a new fclass where i have to research what skills are mp 10viable, dont bget me wrong i love how the game challenges me but i need something new i need something harder or different to challenge my self and try to get better gear please add more content, if there is an expansion i'll buy it in a heart beat idc
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These aren't features, they were just another way to make quests required without being part of the main story line. I don't know anyone that ever skipped these so they basically are main quest line quests.
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It's the quest rewards in general that need improvement.

Experience, gold, experience, gold, experience, gold, experience, gold, experience, gold.

That's the only quest reward ever for any quest I've ever done in D3.

I'm currently playing Titan Quest, and some quests you get a random item, which sure, many times is useless, but for some quests you get a unique item sometimes.

Some quests give you skill points, some stat points.

The non-existence of skill and stat points in D3 makes it hard to make those quest rewards, but they could have had stat increases to the stat of your choice or something along those lines(as a quest reward). Maybe a quest could have given you a rare item with a small chance of giving you a legendary. (the quests being repeatable would cause a possible exploit there however). Also in D2 there was a scroll of resistance, giving a permanent boost to all resist, that was nice as well.

I'm really a bit disappointed in the quest rewards. With so much effort put into making the game that's the best we get? Experience and gold? I'm looking forward to Grim Dawn, and hope to play D3 in the future when it's been a bit more improved. (Not trying to say it's bad, but I know it can be better and I do love the combat).
Edited by jdwest88#1213 on 7/26/2013 9:12 PM PDT
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07/26/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Capo
The story line and quest line in D3 is terrible.


All I remember from the "story" in chronological order:

Best/Most Memorable character dies.
Look footprints!
Bwahaha let me randomly appear as a shadow and tell you everything I'm doing until you come to fight me!
Tear-ror! Tear-ror! Welcome to the Realm of Tear-ror! Tear-ror! Tear-ror! *death throw commences* followed by 1000 gold reward in tandem with silly fart noise.
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Super redundant. The problem, for me anyways, is I feel as though WoW had too much influence on this game because of $$$$$$$$$$$$. I have never been able to get into WoW because every time I play, I have no clue what is going on. Half the time it's getting your quest activated and then completing it as fast as possible and then collecting your reward. There were so many disappointments with D3, but the time has come to move passed that and try and improve on what is there.

As far as the difficulties go, my suggestion is instead of removing Hell, get rid of Inferno and make hell that "difficult". How about with each increase of difficulty, the path to the final goal of defeating Diablo is changed? This would help with the repetitive story. I beat the game in 30 hrs through normal, got to the second act and then didnt touch the game for a year. I believe that randomly generated side quests that have nothing to do with the story line (like the tower in the black marsh) should also be seriously considered.

I won't pretend to know what it takes to write code for a game, but I feel this could easily be implemented just like the randomized dungeons in fields of misery via finding tomes or items (such as the golden bird). The game as it stands now is about the AH. Find gold to buy gear or find gear to make gold.
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07/26/2013 09:33 PMPosted by Anderous
As far as the difficulties go, my suggestion is instead of removing Hell, get rid of Inferno and make hell that "difficult". How about with each increase of difficulty, the path to the final goal of defeating Diablo is changed? This would help with the repetitive story. I beat the game in 30 hrs through normal, got to the second act and then didnt touch the game for a year. I believe that randomly generated side quests that have nothing to do with the story line (like the tower in the black marsh) should also be seriously considered.


Good idea. I would suggest they make normal = 50% current nightmare difficulty, nightmare = current hell difficulty, as well. Then add more randomly generated side events.
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All players end up spending the majority of their time at end game, and in a Diablo game they get there faster than any other type of game.

Diablo 2 had an advantage in making the journey more fun as there was a need to reroll, but yet you could do it ever more insanely faster depending on how good a set of twink gear you had assembled beforehand, which was fun.

It's the same thing that made Heirloom items in WoW fun.

Personally I think the focus should only be on end game, especially in this Diablo since you have the skill templating instead of skill building, so there is no need to reroll beyond one of each class.

But yeah, Hell difficulty can be removed for all I care. It would help noobs, but won't do anything for the overall state of the game. Far more content focused changes need to be made.

Devs have got to stop wasting time on non-critical problems like pre-Inferno and focus on the triage areas of D3.

Even if you introduced Heirloom type items to D3 and let brand new players with no friends and no cash to hire a power level nearly warp instantly into Inferno it wouldn't help that much because first off 1-60 can already be power leveled in a couple of hours with a friend and even the first few levels of para. The story and the level-up process is no fun either hence people paying 10-200m to get power leveled in a couple of hours and skip it to reach the 'big money competitive D3 Inferno MP10 where loot rains from the sky' only to realize later that this was also a waste of time when they lose their noob sheen. D2 won in the replayability category here as you could always use your more developed character to twink the lower ones as you had an infinite need for rerolls.

Don't waste time on worrying about the pre-Inferno game Devs. It is not fun enough for anyone to want to go back even if they got an Inferno reward out of it either, it would just feel like another tedious requirement in a game already filled with tedium. You lost a lot going to the template system instead of the build system so either embrace it fully and fill end game full of content that templated characters aren't going to get bored with, or scrap templating and introduce builds and permanent choices again. You can't keep trying to straddle the difference. Personally, I like the template system but I can realistically see what was lost going to it.
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07/26/2013 06:04 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
IMO the problem with moving the destination closer is what are you gonna do. Change the amount of affixes the enemies have in inferno. Because if you just removed hell then you wold jump from having elites with 2 affixes to inferno where they have 4 affixes. That might be fine for those that have already been playing for a long time but not for new players.


Isn't that how the NM to Hell jump worked before? NM had 2 affixes, Hell had 4, Inferno had 5 or am I makin that up in my head.
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Some items in D2 were end game viable, not here in D3 - with new characters, I'd pick nothing up as it would slow me down from getting into inferno.

Last character took around 8hrs 20mins getting into inferno and lvl 60 bulldozing through all mobs and checkpoints solo in HC. That's with a tweaked character, no farming required. I would hit lvl 60 around mid hell by playing normally via the optimum MP level.
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Isn't that how the NM to Hell jump worked before? NM had 2 affixes, Hell had 4, Inferno had 5 or am I makin that up in my head.


nah, it's always been 1/2/3/4 in d3.

what really bugs me about the suggestion to just do away with hell and open up inferno faster is.. then it feels like character level is purely pointless... like the next step to "make the game faster" is to just give you the option of starting at 60 with a "appropriate act 4 hell" set of gear already in place.

once you reach that point, then, really, what is the reason to even having the game installed?
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They can't do power up quests really, because there are no skill points for the skills.

But they can probably do unique, one-time drop items. Like this:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9436964216#1
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*sighs*

Not even sure why i will bother with this but here goes...

Q: Why are 4 difficulties boring after the 1000th time you level a character ?

A: Because NOTHING ever changes, oh wait one thing does change. All the numbers get bigger.

"Whuptee-Frog fart in a rusted skillet-Doo....."

This game has nothing in it random AT ALL, except some of the numbers on the items.

THAT IS IT......

Nothing about it is more complicated than that. PERIOD.

So until Blizzard includes some map randomizing like D2 had, some unique events (diablo clone) like D2 had and some monster randomizing like Act 5 had in D2 then this game will continue to be boring and linear.

Please understand i am NOT complaining, i have well over 1000 hours played and i still want to play but it needs a lot of fixing to be less linear.

My 2 cents. (walks off whistling....)
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*sighs*

Not even sure why i will bother with this but here goes...

Q: Why are 4 difficulties boring after the 1000th time you level a character ?

A: Because NOTHING ever changes, oh wait one thing does change. All the numbers get bigger.

"Whuptee-Frog fart in a rusted skillet-Doo....."

This game has nothing in it random AT ALL, except some of the numbers on the items.

THAT IS IT......

Nothing about it is more complicated than that. PERIOD.

So until Blizzard includes some map randomizing like D2 had, some unique events (diablo clone) like D2 had and some monster randomizing like Act 5 had in D2 then this game will continue to be boring and linear.

Please understand i am NOT complaining, i have well over 1000 hours played and i still want to play but it needs a lot of fixing to be less linear.

My 2 cents. (walks off whistling....)


Gross you said period
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MVP - Technical Support
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But then kind of like what you’re saying, I don’t know if it’s specifically NM and Hell that’s the issue. More that you really want to get to Inferno and you’ve got a long road ahead of you and it’s very predictable and very much the same. Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer.


I'm going to address this by stating why I feel NM/Hell (and often even Normal) don't feel "relevant" vs. the "endgame".

"More that you really want to get to Inferno and you've got a long road ahead of you and it's very predictable."

Normal, Nightmare, and Hell are mainly differentiated by the type and number of affixes that monsters can have on them in addition to their HP totals. In some ways it is predictable, such as HP increases, damage increases, and the number of affixes Elites can have. In some ways it is less predictable - you might find more types and combinations of affixes on the Elites, and in an ideal environment monster AI and patterns would change to make things a bit more difficult right out of the box. Currently AI has no bearing on difficulty, and that is why Monster Power has been widely considered to be an "artificial" difficulty incrementer.

An example of changing AI would be Elites that spawn with the Arcane Enchanted affix. On Normal they would just randomly place them willy nilly without a care in the world. Players would see them, learn how they work, but not necessarily be choked to death by them first thing off. As one progresses through Nightmare and Hell placement of the beams becomes more focused and/or tighter (but never directly underneath a player's position since that is akin to a one shot gimmick and highly unavoidable). Players would have to focus more attention on the beams in each successive difficulty, especially in tight quarters in order to survive.

Plagued could be less damage and radius in lower difficulties and higher damage, radius, and/or duration in higher difficulties. Frozen bombs in Normal might be sparse and not as tightly packed, and by the time you get to Inferno you get what you see now with how powerful and dangerous they can be. Desecrator can be changed from the ho-hum mega damage to a modest damage mechanism that also slows down resource regeneration, or in Inferno has the potential to drain resource regeneration (mitigated by resource enhancers and/or Resist All).

Vortex could be changed such that instead of sucking you into the bad and killing you, thus depriving you of any opportunity to use skill to avoid the damage, it forms a swirling distortion beneath your location in an increasing radius per difficulty that slows you down (again by more with higher difficulties), thus still giving you the opportunity to get away from the bad/enemy while being faced with ever increasing danger as difficulty level increases.

Electrified could on Normal fire four bolts in the Cardinal directions. On Nightmare it would fire six bolts (four Cardinal, two Ordinal). On Hell it woudl fire eight bolts (four Cardinal, four Ordinal). On Inferno it would fire sixteen bolts (four Cardinal x2, four Ordinal x2).

Knockback would remain as-is except it would lose the slow attached to it. Almost all knockbacks in this game have a slow attached to them and it really kills a lot of enjoyment in the heat of combat, especially with monsters that can repeatedly knock back.

Waller would act like the current version for Rare monsters. On Normal the walls would be further apart and Inferno would close them to their current locations. Gone would be the multiple spammable walls on different timers that often end up on top of players preventing them from taking any actions due to trapping them via bugged placement locations.

Jailer would be gone as it entails no skill at all other than to trap you in the bad, making much of the affixes it gets paired with nothing more than frustrating gimmicks.

Nightmarish would be gone also since loss of character control = death a lot of the time. Take a cue from the players in World of Warcraft - we hate losing control of our characters. It's the number one complaint with regard to Diablo 3's combat.

Reflects Damage is an Iron Maiden for Diablo 3. There was a reason it was removed from Diablo 2. Punishing the players for improving themselves goes against the grain of every RPG/ARPG out there. Coupling this with the Enrage Timer also has the direct effect of narrowing down viable builds for such affix combinations to a scant few and does nothing to enhance player enjoyment of the combat they partake in.

Now, while the above is moderately predictable on paper, in practice each successive difficulty level makes the mechanic require more attention per affix. And if monster AI also changes to be more aggressive or coordinated in successive difficulty levels, combat suddenly becomes much more frenetic and energizing without being the total RNG-fest that it feels like today.

"Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer."

There are a few factors in this equation, but the biggest one by far is the lack of viability of most of the items that you actually find yourself vs. the content in which it drops.

In Diablo 2, you could find some nifty set items that would get you through Normal, and even sometimes Nightmare fairly well. You wouldn't always find them, but more often than not at least something interesting would drop. Not so in Diablo 3. Set items are from plans that are few and far between and those plans never drop. I've seen one plan my entire time playing, and that was the Quick Draw Belt plan, not even a set plan.

But beyond the scarcity of the set and legendaries themselves is a deeper, more ingrained issue: No items scale in this game. At all. Every last piece of armor or weapon that drops has fixed stats. That is, a sword at LV 15 might have a fixed range of 25-60 of a given stat (let's say STR for this example). That sword also has a fixed DPS. This means that the sword will be very quickly outdated since it gains no power increment as you level up. And to add to that problem, anything past Normal Act 1 often drops well past the point that it would even be relevant, often to the tune of being ten levels behind the curve. We've got stuff that drops in the first Act of Hell that would barely suffice for dealing with Act 1 or 2 in Nightmare. That's really, really bad for making the journey a fun experience.

So what is this scaling you ask? It's things like +0.5 mana per character level or +2 STR per character level. Remember that sword from the last example? It would look something like this in the current iteration of Diablo 3:

10-20 Damage
1.00 Attacks per second
15.0 DPS

+40 STR
+10 VIT
+2% Magic Find

Requires LV 15

Now, without a socket, that sword loses its value extremely quickly as you level up, meaning you need to find something better that much sooner. Problem is, with the current loot model that's next to impossible, especially given the disparity between Nephalem Valor enabled characters and characters that have no access to Nephalem Valor.

But what if the sword looked like this:

10-20 Damage
1.00 Attacks per second
15.0 DPS

+10 VIT
+2 STR per character level
+1% Magic Find per character level
+5-10 STR

Requires LV 15

Suddenly instead of being utterly useless after just a couple of levels, it could sustain you since it grows in power at a modest rate as you do and would hopefully last you until you could find something on your own. This would lessen depressing effect of hardly ever finding worthwhile upgrades while leveling.

In order for this scaling to have worth though (and for sockets not to matter as much), a couple things would need to happen.

First off, Critical Hit Damage (CHD) needs to go away as a stat. Diablo 2 did this very well by using the Enhanced Damage (ED) affix. This controls the overall maximum damage of the weapon, and since critidal hits will always be a set amount, tuning is much more easily accomplished. ED is similar to CHD in that it would be the primary "above normal" scaling factor for weapon damage, but it affects all damage done by the weapon, not just critical hits. That allows the developers to keep the number lower than the total CHD we get now, but still have more of an impact on a weapon's damage range. It would then allow weapons to make better use of +min/+max damage without having to resort to wildly differing ranges like we have now.

Second, to keep upgrades a possibility, items would have to have the ability to roll either fixed or scaling stat affixes. The fixed stat range could then be made moderately higher than it currently is while the scaling stat would eventually overtake it. The former would be of more use "right now", but the latter would have more lasting power. And a combination of the two (within reason and with mutual exclusivity such that you cannot have +X per level and the same affix as a fixed stat except on specifically designed items such as legendaries/sets) you would have a weapon with slgithly more power "now", but with enough lasting power to hopefully work until you land another item.

Next we'd need to change how our primary stat scales. Right now it's 1% per point, and since we can stack thousands it quickly becomes...ridiculous. It's part of why damage scaling is out of control. Curb the scaling factor here and you can turn monsters more more finely and not have absurd scaling like we see in Monster Power levels. More refined tuning = more granular transitions in combat between difficulties.

And finally, there needs to be a way to increment an item's base type (and thus its stats). Scaling stats would not be affected by this, but the fixed stat ranges would, as well as damage ranges for weapons. This is basically a rebirth of Diablo 2's Unique item upgrade capability where players could farm for materials to upgrade say, a Buriza Do-Kyanon from its base item type of Balilsta to the next item tier, the Colossus Bow. As the item's base type is upgrades, so too is its base damage and fixed stat ranges (scaling stats would remain unaffected by the upgrade both because it would be overpowered if they could also increase, but also to keep the possibility of upgrading to a better item later on). Recipes for upgrading the item types would vary between rare and Legendary items, and each upgrade would increase the base level required to equip the item as well.

So suddenly you go from fixed stat uselessness after two or three level items to items that could potentially be upgraded from in short order or serve the player much more favorably until they found something to replace it with (or were able to upgrade it). That certainly makes it not feel so bad when you have the craptacular drop rates and loot aqcuisition rates outside of the auction house now, doesn't it?

Diablo 2 had many sets and uniques (Legendaries for Diablo 3) that could be found by players as they were leveling up. With enough of these items, players could start creating some more fun builds instead of just the one or two "FOTL" (Flavor of the Level) abilities they stick with now, since items would have better scaling, and hopefully more varied and useful affixes to complement different skills and abilities. Diablo 3 lacks this, and if it were to be given this treatment would become a much more rewarding game during the "journey" portion than it is now.

Something to consider with MF (not necessarily GF though): Currently until you hit the 200% MF mark you really don't feel much of an effect. That said, low level items having 1-5% per slot really stinks. Level should not be the dictating factor in whether or not you can find items. Lackluster scaling of this stat really hurts more than you might think, especially at the low end of the scale. And finding nothing but white items throughout most of your journey because MF is so pitifully low and because the game is centered around nothing but the "endgame" of Inferno and NV/Paragon Levels really dampens players spirits when it comes to believing that the next item is "just around the corner".

The reason NV and Paragon Levels are nothing more than crutches is precisely because of both lack of drops (NV props that up) and scaling (Paragon Level props that up). If you fix the underlying issues at the core of the loot distribution/finding model, NV and PL suddenly become unnecessary and you can explore other ways to further improve/customize your characters at max level.

Another thing that really hampers the feel of the game from the beginning all the way to the end is the absurdly slow run speed we have and the pathetic cap we're stuck with. Both need to be increased in order for us to feel more enjoyment out of getting around in the world. Out of the gate we reel like we're running in slow motion, and even once we have reached the cap we're not really "fast" outside of the Monk who can reach +85% runspeed via Fleet Footed + Tempest Rush: Tailwind. But that's only one build for that class. The rest have to settle for "meh" and it's like that across the board. A partial fix to this would be to take the limitations to where the movement speed affix can spawn out of the equation. There was no cap in Diablo 2 either, and it was a choice that the player had to make: more speed, or more of other stats? Make both changes and let it balance itself out. It wasn't a problem then and it wouldn't be now, especially if itemization is brought up to snuff and lots of choices are brought into the fold.

These are the things that make the journey feel good. Normal, Nightmare, and Hell are meant to provide a means for the player to ramp up their skills and reflexes to meet the challenges that will face them down the road. Taking them out would be like taking somebody from the Looking for Raid (LFR) level in World of Warcraft and sticking them directly into a Heroic Raid. The results would be disastrous and cause more friction than benefits in solo play, let alone group play where coordination is key.

Right now, the road that lines the journey to the endgame is flat and devoid of feeling or reward, and full of potholes. Fix the road and make it so we can feel its presence beneath our feet as we run toward our destination and suddenly it goes from being a seemingly endless march and climbing out of holes after we've fallen down to a solid and well built path to glory.

You can make it happen if you try.
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Edited by TheTias#1192 on 7/27/2013 3:29 AM PDT
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