Diablo® III

Diablo 3 needs "power-up" quests like Diablo 2 did

PLZ MAN shutup
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Respecs are one thing, D3 has a completely preset system...
Like I said it's just much more fun to make a class if I acually have control over the build...
As D3 stands it doesn't have builds, just all options at all time...


D2 has basically the same skill system. You pick 4 main skills and a secondary skill and then put the rest of the points in the skills that lead up to them. You give D2 way too much credit here. Nobody built D2 characters without max skills so in D2 you picked 4 main skills, in D3 you pick 8. That is more or less the difference in the two character systems. D3s system adds way more depth than D2 ever had. I just don't get people who think D2 was deep. The difference in characters had more to do with gear choices than skill choices even in D2.


Many skills are good if I just add one point... Warmth are just the first skill to pop into my head... And if I recall correctly we can use 12 skills activly... F1-F12.. You have played D2 right?

Edit; And just to be clear I didn't ask for a copy of the D2 skill system... Its 12 years old...
Thought they had expanded and added much more depth into the system with D3 when i bought it...
But they just removed it and took away all control over the progress...
Edited by Psychonaut#2909 on 7/27/2013 1:06 PM PDT
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you could have the best of both worlds (those arguing the pros n cons of attribute points and putting time into chars etc)

if the itemization changes also add affixes all over the place for skills... like imagine if every green number on the skills icon could be changed / enhanced via rare gear (as in not just legendaries and class specific)

+radius
-mana cost
+cast speed (significantly to one spell)
+2 zombie dogs
cooldown reduction
+dmg
+duration

that way we can still change things around like we do now, but by adding these things on gear, we have builds that actually change the way we play, and take time to make

thats not even including all the things they could possibly add like procs, auras, new defensive attributes, even being able to find things like +500 fire dmg on something not a weapon, or, God help me, too many awesome options now, +15% fire dmg (or sweet Jesus, all of the above)

edit: ofc if this happened, 6 max would be impossible and frustrating, (not that such a low max now isnt frustrating, bc it is, for me at least, (not diablo to have only 6) only on paper tho... since there arent enough interesting things on gear to be found anyway) imagine if there was like a 12 max, on rare items, and the 12, 11, and 10 attribute gear pieces were really rare to find.

now not only do we have awesome builds, that we have options galore, but time consumptions all over the place adding tons of longetivity to the game without adding any new modes or new content

then what if they did add new modes, like survival mode, or a moba, team pvp etc

things would become a lot less dull
Edited by Honor#1370 on 7/27/2013 2:43 PM PDT
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07/27/2013 05:27 AMPosted by Ender
The reason level 1-60 is so boring is because of the preset skill system...


100% false as well. Level in D3 is so much more fun than D2 because you can swap your skills around and try new things. In D2 your character is more or less finished at lvl 18, 24 or 30 and at that point all you did was put fluff points into your main skill to basically level them up with you. D2s skill system was worse in almost every way than D3s is. Fewer options by far and a lot less fun while leveling.

The only good thing about D2 is that you couldn't respec so it sort of forced you into rerolling and even that is questionable whether it was a good thing or not. D2s skill system was really awful, anyone saying it was good is stuck in nostalgia mode.

This is for anyone who did not play D2. Anyone who says you had more freedom in how to spec while leveling in D2 is a bold face liar. You picked your spec at the start and were locked into it with no deviation and you played the exact same way from the time you got your primary attack until the time you quit your character or respeced once they added it. To make matters worse you had synergies which were more or less skills you didn't want to use but made your primary skill stronger and they sucked up viable options. The reality of D2 is you usually picked 2 or maybe if you were lucky 3 skills and that is where your points went and then you were stuck taking the synergies. One or the most restrictive skill systems ever made.


And if you didn't like the build you would reroll and do a different build or pick a new class.
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I have a bad feeling about this. I never was one to compare D3 to WoW, but when I hear them saying things like "Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer." I can't help but think they're bringing in talent from the WoW team, or at least looking over the fence at what the WoW team is doing and thinking they can adapt that to D3.

This is exactly what they did in WoW. Players hated leveling, and rather than retool the game into something that feels rewarding as you level up, the developers just continued to water down the leveling process so players could get to endgame content as soon as possible. This is almost understandable, as WoW is an MMO that gets frequent content updates to keep subscribers busy, but even then, it's proving to be an uphill battle.

D3 is not an MMO and as such does not need the MMO "GET 'EM TO 60!!" treatment. I realized Blizzard North is long gone, but it really shouldn't be that difficult for such a successful game company to figure out what made D2 successful, and how to adapt that to a sequel with some quality-of-life improvements. Instead, we got a sequel that gives us all of the quality-of-life improvements, without much of a game to play. It's frankly kind of embarrassing that Blizzard is actually asking what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey. They added the Paragon system as a band-aid fix to give players some more grinding to do. That's fine, keep us grinding, but you guys forgot to make the grind fun.

The only reason many of us are sick of leveling up is because there's nothing to do. We're sick of the previous three difficulties because Inferno is the closest we're getting to a real Diablo experience (which honestly isn't saying much.) We get 100 more levels to grind out that include stat increases and increased MF, in a difficulty level that can no longer be face-rolled... unless we buy gold or items, of course.

Which brings me to another point (and yes, I realize it's a tired one): The Auction House, mainly the Gold Auction House (if people want to pay real money for items, that's clearly the kind of players that they are and that's entirely up to them.) We use the AH to upgrade our gear frequently to keep up with the content, or to just surpass it entirely. Then we get to Inferno and suddenly we're getting up to price ranges maxing out in the billions, and we have to grind some more to afford upgrades (or, again, just purchase all the gold we need for a few bucks.)

And Blizzard hears all of these complaints and suggestions we make, and has the audacity to ask "So... you guys want us to shorten the game even more, then?"

TL;DR version:

We have too many methods of grinding (1-60, 1-60 gearing, Paragon Levels, Inferno gearing) and none of them are any fun.
Give us content that is interesting (other players have already made suggestions on this thread,) and give us a form of progression that is interesting (D2's skill trees may have been inherently flawed, but we still had fun making characters that were truly "ours.")

D3 was built from the ground up to encourage players to make Blizzard money through in-game purchases, and it didn't work out the way it was planned. Blizzard needs to stop pretending they're trying to figure out what players want, acknowledge they went in a direction people hate, and rebuild whatever parts of the game are necessary to turn D3 into a true sequel.
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Deleted*
Edited by Matheyus#1507 on 7/28/2013 2:17 AM PDT
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D3 is not an MMO and as such does not need the MMO "GET 'EM TO 60!!" treatment. I realized Blizzard North is long gone, but it really shouldn't be that difficult for such a successful game company to figure out what made D2 successful, and how to adapt that to a sequel with some quality-of-life improvements. Instead, we got a sequel that gives us all of the quality-of-life improvements, without much of a game to play. It's frankly kind of embarrassing that Blizzard is actually asking what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey. They added the Paragon system as a band-aid fix to give players some more grinding to do. That's fine, keep us grinding, but you guys forgot to make the grind fun.

The only reason many of us are sick of leveling up is because there's nothing to do. We're sick of the previous three difficulties because Inferno is the closest we're getting to a real Diablo experience (which honestly isn't saying much.) We get 100 more levels to grind out that include stat increases and increased MF, in a difficulty level that can no longer be face-rolled... unless we buy gold or items, of course.

Which brings me to another point (and yes, I realize it's a tired one): The Auction House, mainly the Gold Auction House (if people want to pay real money for items, that's clearly the kind of players that they are and that's entirely up to them.) We use the AH to upgrade our gear frequently to keep up with the content, or to just surpass it entirely. Then we get to Inferno and suddenly we're getting up to price ranges maxing out in the billions, and we have to grind some more to afford upgrades (or, again, just purchase all the gold we need for a few bucks.)

And Blizzard hears all of these complaints and suggestions we make, and has the audacity to ask "So... you guys want us to shorten the game even more, then?"

TL;DR version:

We have too many methods of grinding (1-60, 1-60 gearing, Paragon Levels, Inferno gearing) and none of them are any fun.
Give us content that is interesting (other players have already made suggestions on this thread,) and give us a form of progression that is interesting (D2's skill trees may have been inherently flawed, but we still had fun making characters that were truly "ours.")

D3 was built from the ground up to encourage players to make Blizzard money through in-game purchases, and it didn't work out the way it was planned. Blizzard needs to stop pretending they're trying to figure out what players want, acknowledge they went in a direction people hate, and rebuild whatever parts of the game are necessary to turn D3 into a true sequel.


+ 1

Diablo 3 took Diablo 2's skill system and threw it out. It added rune bonuses to these skills for personalizing builds yet still made them even more reliant upon items. Considering the mess itemization is in, this doesn't bode well. So, you have a lackluster journey through a very confining sanctuary or world of game play that is repetitive, and sometimes annoying. Diablo, to me, isn't about every single NPC's guiding you to the next area without any reward or justifiable reason. A flaw in the game and story that also involves a lot of wisecracks and cliche dialogue I feel forced to relate to.

I love the art design and quite a few of the ideas in the game.. For ex. - I really do enjoy the concept of the skills the player has and their rune bonuses with them. However, I still feel I lack the freedom in the world I came to love. Why? Because of all the other negative factors that make it stick out like a sore thumb. Itemization, rewards, customization. The game needs to reward players. Another ex.

There are even times I honestly look at the background of the city in act 2. A giant rustic looking desert with a giant mixed construct of Castles, apartments, hallways, etc. Why is it only scenery? In all honesty, I thought this game was going to be vast before release, not the same small sized scale as its predecessor 10 years before it.... Why not add climbing, scaling, abilities besides just the vault maneuverability of the demon hunter or a jump from the barbarian. Climbing up a wall as a witch doctor using wall of zombies? I know it might seem far fetched, but games evolve and change. Mario's flight in Mario 3 anyone? The game is small and to me that makes it all the more worthwhile to add content or the way the player can explore that world. I want to be able to experience sanctuary and its gorgeous world, not just feel teased by it. Just my opinion
Edited by Matheyus#1507 on 7/28/2013 2:13 AM PDT
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Thank you for sharing Diablo III feedback, and your ideas on side quests. I think the heart of what you're mentioning (based your feedback, and others) is that Diablo III could use more things to do once you've completed Inferno difficulty. We're working on adding some variety for players who have completed Inferno difficulty, but we've also heard players mention that the Hell difficulty feels redundant. We're looking at ways to adjust what it takes to get to Inferno as a result. Hopefully, the sum total of those changes means we'll be adding interesting variety, and longevity to the end game, while keeping the path along the way fun.

Here is a reply from Wyatt to Flux, when asked about the possibility of removing the Hell difficulty, so that you have some context and insight.

its not only about the things you can do once you finish Inferno, its as well about how unimaginative the quests and their rewards are. D3 is extremly linear as far as its world and maps goes, and there are not really many side quests anyway, because you are doing most of those on the fly anyway.

A huge problem in my eyes is how you do a quest, like to rescue a few soldiers on the field of slaughter, and all you get is some "experience" and "gold". And both of it can be really ignored. You will get more, a lot more of both, by just ignoring those quests and continuing your journey ...

While Diablo 2 had not always super awesome rewards for your quests, it still feels different when Ormus gives you a random rare Ring for doing his quest or charsy giving you the option to enchant one white item which was even somewhat usefull in the lower difficulties, compared to a "message" on the top corner of your screen saying that you got now some 200 experience and 5000 gold ... the first simply feels more "believable", like you REALLY interacted with the person., and he is grateful that you saved the village/town. Some of the rewards have been even worth to start the whole game again, like Lazurks socket quest. Other quests you get from Malah to rescue Anya from heir prison of ice where you got more resistances as reward, act 2 Radament, killing him gave you a magical book that gve you 5 more stat points to chose from and so on an so fort.

Those stuff, which every character could only do once, made the game feel "more alive", more like YOU the player have been a part of the world you tried to save, even if it was just a small world and an illusion. But it really feels a lot better then some random amount of gold or exp ... you already GET experience and gold for killing the monsters, opening chests etc. so why should you simply get MORE of it when you complete the quest? It doesnt feel in any way special nor that you accomplished something.
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honestly, there are shrines for that.
+1 potions worked for D1 because
the cap was so small on stats.
think about this as well: the game is
balanced to complete at level 60
and then there are 100 more levels.
that's a lot more stats.
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Here is a reply from Wyatt to Flux, when asked about the possibility of removing the Hell difficulty, so that you have some context and insight.

Wyatt Cheng: A related question to that is, 1-30 the first time through normal is interesting, maybe the first time because of the story. maybe the 2nd time through it’s a different class and you’re doing different skills. Maybe the pacing feels right. maybe it’s even interesting further down since the challenge holds up and your loot/reward acquisition rate stays high and feels right.

But then kind of like what you’re saying, I don’t know if it’s specifically NM and Hell that’s the issue. More that you really want to get to Inferno and you’ve got a long road ahead of you and it’s very predictable and very much the same. Another question for us to ask ourselves is, what makes the destination so much more interesting than the journey? Can we make the journey appealing as well? If not, then maybe we should just move the destination closer.


in my opinion it is because the journy to inferno is without any reward.
for example in D2 CLASSIC you where able to find useful uniques all the way to hell... and even good rares in nightmare already. also you where leveling up to the 99 all the way... D3 begins with lvl 60 at in inferno. everything ahead is only interesting the first or second time.
Edited by marv#2805 on 7/28/2013 3:14 AM PDT
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D2 has basically the same skill system. You pick 4 main skills and a secondary skill and then put the rest of the points in the skills that lead up to them. You give D2 way too much credit here. Nobody built D2 characters without max skills so in D2 you picked 4 main skills, in D3 you pick 8. That is more or less the difference in the two character systems. D3s system adds way more depth than D2 ever had. I just don't get people who think D2 was deep. The difference in characters had more to do with gear choices than skill choices even in D2.


D3's weapon damage, main stat, chc, chd = D2's +X to all skills. If we don't have those our characters worth nothing, at least in D3, yet it is the only way to make our character stronger, and that is the problem. It's so linear and boring.

Sure there are affixes that increases different elemental's damages (black weapon bug is still present so can't be used normaly with any weapons), or specific skills, but they are so weak that aren't worth using them and there is nothing else to choose from..

It's like i find 2 preserved heads for my necro:
Item 1 say: +3 to all skills
Item 2 say: +1 summon skeleton
That's fine, but in d3 we have to have item1, otherwise we can't progress, because there is no equivalent +3 to summon skeleton, nor +3 to Necromancer affixes in d3 . No character progression. Main stat + trifecta spoiled us, and there is no turning back, unless they balance the skills and increase elemental and individual skills' modifiers, because they took high damage as baseline, so without mainstat + trifecta our characters are doomed to fail, not to mention higher monster power, some skills isn't even worth considering to use it.
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With only 4 acts in Diablo 3 it seems like the only thing there is to do is the usual farming and grinding for gold and paragon level XP. The problem is once you kill Diablo on Inferno you're pretty much done with the story completely.

There really needs to be quests again that permanently make your character better. After killing all the final bosses on Diablo 2 you still had to go back and do optional quests. The Den of Evil quest gave you a free skill point to spend, Act 2 had another optional quest that also gave you a free skill point. Then in Act 3 if you found the jade figurine Alkor gave you a potion that permanently increased HP. But with Diablo 3 the optional quests really just grant you some experience and an achievement so they really are just optional.

Diablo 3 would have more longevity if Act I normal had an optional quest that granted you +1 Strength (depending on class) permanently and the same optional quest on Inferno granted you +4 Strength permanently. And just to add more difficulty, make it so you would require a minimum monster power to be eligible to do a power-up quest like I just mentioned. Normal difficulty power-up quests would require no monster power. Then Nightmare would require at least 2 monster power to do a power-up quest, finally Inferno power-up quests would require you to be at least MP 6.

I would expect there to be something like this in the expansion, but it would be nice to have a patch with a new power-up quest for every act. More players would come back to Diablo 3 IMO since it would feel like a mini-expansion just came out.


i'm sorry, are you asking for free dps upgrades? are these quests you are asking for repeatable? ie: if I repeat the quest 50000 times i get 50,000 strength?

if on the other hand, it only applies but once, then it appears to be of no consequence. (ie: everyone gets +1 strength, game is balanced around the fact that everyone eventually has that +1 strength)

power is relative. it doesn't matter if we all had +50,000 hp, the game itself will be balanced around the fact that we have +50,000 hp. (ie: monster damage will be increased, or mp20 becomes a necessity to exist)

---

so meanwhile, if these quests apply once, then they are ultimately inconsequential.
if these quests apply all the time, then they are broken.

---

I see plenty of ideas from plenty of people but they never seem to get the point right.

a) what can we do that will encourage people to willingly/enthusiastically farm act1-act4 another 500000 times?

and that should be the overweening goal of any ideas introduced.
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 7/28/2013 9:09 AM PDT
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i'm sorry, are you asking for free dps upgrades? are these quests you are asking for repeatable? ie: if I repeat the quest 50000 times i get 50,000 strength?

someone here has never played Diablo 1 or 2 I suppose.

In Diablo 2 for example, once a character finished a quest, the reward he got for it would not spawn again, just the monster you had to kill in that quest, your journal would also show that quest as finished for example so have not been forced to go trough that same anoying dialogue over and over again.

I thought it should be a no brainer here, that a quest reward like stat increase, should be only possible ONCE for every character.
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quest reward, hmmm...

since they won't give us permanent stuff like stat points, how about the quests give non-permanent stuff such as specified items. Items could include:
-special crafting materials not gotten other ways
-a random item that comes with a chance of being a leg (small chance)
-a specific item with comes with a specific range of stats (like the +stat crafting)

or they could seperate everything into 2 segments - a function for question and 1 for post questing where everything is open and all the bosses are there. the later would have no quests in it. If the quests could only be completed once, then stronger rewards could be given. essentially what this is saying is this:
-2 "realms" or whatever. 1 where there are quests. 1 where there are no quests, but all of the bosses remain.
-then ppl wont be stuck in the annoying-as-&%&% story line.
-If a character could only "complete" any given quest once then stronger rewards could be given.

p.s. some people want to just farm bosses. make killing bosses more rewarding to make killing them a viable option. its easy, just add a 100% chance to drop a breath of the dying ilvl63 axe - only a 2000dps weapon with 15% life steal, thats all. (last sentence is a joke)

For reference to assist with my joke...
Breath of the Dying 6 Socket Weapons Vex + Hel + El + Eld + Zod + Eth
50% Chance To Cast Level 20 Poison Nova When You Kill An Enemy
Indestructible
+60% Increased Attack Speed
+350-400% Enhanced Damage (varies)
+200% Damage To Undead
-25% Target Defense
+50 To Attack Rating
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead
7% Mana Stolen Per Hit
12-15% Life Stolen Per Hit (varies)
Prevent Monster Heal
+30 To All Attributes
+1 To Light Radius
Requirements -20%
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Posts: 332

i'm sorry, are you asking for free dps upgrades? are these quests you are asking for repeatable? ie: if I repeat the quest 50000 times i get 50,000 strength?

if on the other hand, it only applies but once, then it appears to be of no consequence. (ie: everyone gets +1 strength, game is balanced around the fact that everyone eventually has that +1 strength)

power is relative. it doesn't matter if we all had +50,000 hp, the game itself will be balanced around the fact that we have +50,000 hp. (ie: monster damage will be increased, or mp20 becomes a necessity to exist)

---

so meanwhile, if these quests apply once, then they are ultimately inconsequential.
if these quests apply all the time, then they are broken.

---

I see plenty of ideas from plenty of people but they never seem to get the point right.

a) what can we do that will encourage people to willingly/enthusiastically farm act1-act4 another 500000 times?

and that should be the overweening goal of any ideas introduced.


Well duh... of course you could only do these type of quests ONLY once.

(ie: everyone gets +1 strength, game is balanced around the fact that everyone eventually has that +1 strength)


Well it works exactly the same way with gems. Today I gained an extra +12 Strength and +10% Critical Strike damage by upgrading 4 of my gem slots, and it was pretty fun and it's what makes Diablo 3 fun.

It would also be pretty fun if I could do some power-up quests like Diablo 2 had. So if every Act had 1 power-up quest, that would mean I'd have to make a total of 16 runs in the game. If each quest took about a half hour since you would have to look for them then finally slaughter a few mobs and complete the objectives, this would add a total of 8 hours of fun things to do in the game.

IMO being given tasks with worthwhile rewards takes away the feeling of a mindless grind.
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What Diablo III needs is to remove the linearly designed quest-based system that it currently utilizes.

Instead, make it so we can travel anywhere in the world without having to be bound by and redo quests over and over.
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07/27/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Ender
D3s system adds way more depth than D2 ever had


WTH did I just read ...

Listen up kid ...
Ofc D2 skill systhem wasn´t perfect but come on pls tell me thats a joke!
So you think that:
- No chance 2 hit (one of the reasons y is so easy 2 focus 99% on dmg only)
- 1-2 Builds per class, with NO summoner class (Necro) or anything like the pala or cry barb
- No elemental effekts, why is there even poison, lightning or whatever dmg? just call it green and red and whaterver ... its ust some colour nothig more anyway.
- No stat requirements
- No uniques (no ias on helm is nothing .... special)
- Same BiS 4 allmoust EVERY Class and Build, oh wait there are builds in D3?
- Defence = % reduction = Armour/ Resistance, first time I see those 2 stats do the same thing, while I generally like that change it still makes it a bit shallow.
- As = Cast speed

Pls tell me where there is ANY depth in that!?
I know D3 isn´t the worst game But It might be one of the most shallow and easy ones from the big names out there...

Just An ex: I use a Mempo with cc, Innas with Vitality, Lacunis with CC and Allres, a witching hour with AR, Shoulders with high mainstat vitality and AR, on my weapon I look for high dps and crit and ll.
Overall I go 4 cd cc and ias, get a minimum of ar and armour and enough vitality the rest goes into the main stat, since I need 2 go close combat in high mp I use ll, screw loh, lps ...
Now what class did i describe?
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