Diablo® III

Cloud of Bats Mana and SOJ Frame Analysis

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I ran some frame by frame tests of the mana usage and I was sort of surprised at what I found.

So the way the mana costs are paid for CoB is you pay an initial casting cost a few frames after casting the spell, followed by channel tick cost 2 frames later (always.) And the casting cost was 221, not 220 (always unless you used a SOJ, see below.) After these initial costs, you begin to pay the channel cost in fixed intervals.

The channel tick cost is 33. How often it ticks is based on attack speed. At 1 APS, you pay the channel cost every 30 frames, so twice per second, at 1.49 APS, you pay it every 20 frames, so 3 times per second, at 1.99 APS, you pay it every 15 frames, so 4 times per second.

APS Costs:
  • 1 APS, 66 channel cost per second, (2 ticks)
  • 1.49 APS, 99 channel cost per second, (3 ticks)
  • 1.99 APS, 132 channel cost per second, (4 ticks)
  • So when you are forced to recast COB, you don't pay the casting cost, then a second later start paying the channel cost, you are hit with 221+33 = 254 (ouch.) Even releasing the skill as fast as possible, I still paid the first channel tick cost. So accidentally casting CoB is really expensive (Force Move is your friend here.)

    Even worse, I found the reduction from SOJ was not as good as you would think it was. A SOJ reduced the casting cost and the tick cost by the same amount. But this amount was not what is listed on the ring.

    A -9 SOJ reduced the initial cost by 2 and each tick cost by 2. So at 1 APS, it ticks 2 times per second, so you saved 4 mana per second (you would pay 62 instead of 66.) And the initial cost was 219 instead of 221. At 2 APS, you pay the tick cost 4 times per second, so you get -8 per second (almost the full -9.) I don't know anyone who runs CoB at 2 APS, though.

    Similiarly a -5 SOJ reduced the cost by 1 and the tick cost by 1. These numbers are rounded though.

    The real numbers went like this (ran over 10 tests)
    SOJ Reduction per tick
  • -4 - reduction of 1 per tick
  • -5 - reduction of 1.2 per tick
  • -6 - reduction of 1.4 per tick
  • -7 - reduction of 1.7 per tick
  • -8 - reduction of 1.9 per tick
  • -9 - reduction of 2.2 per tick
  • -10 - reduction of 2.4 per tick
  • So it appears as though you need at least 2 APS to get the full reduction you think you are getting with a SOJ (and you are still getting hosed on the initial casting cost reduction.)

    Pierce the Veil
    Works exactly as advertised
    Initial cost = 287
    Cost per tick = 43

    Blood Ritual
    Works exactly as advertised
    Initial cost = 188
    Cost per tick = 28
    Edited by GunnersDream#1109 on 8/3/2013 6:29 PM PDT
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    Thanks for the great work! How about "mana discount by %" like BR passive?
    It works exactly the opposite as PtV?

    Please edit and include BR passive.

    That means, -FB is rather terrible as a gear stat.

    08/03/2013 01:52 AMPosted by GunnersDream
    So it appears as though you need at least 2 APS to get the full reduction you think you are getting with a SOJ


    This is slightly wrong. At APS of 2, you're "hitting" 2 times (4 ticks), so the reduction from the SoJ is still half value only per "hit", or quarter value only per "tick". The initial casting cost is reduced by a quarter value of the -FB item

    This means the initial cast is missing three-quarters of the -FB value, and the subsequent channel maintenance is missing half the -FB value.

    Blizzard gave terribly misleading tool-tips and gear descriptions! LOL at Blizzard.

    I'll have to add this research to my CoB guide, and do some corrections on the "mana discount" and 1H vs 2H.
    Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/3/2013 7:32 AM PDT
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    Shucks, it's still only 50%. Might be worth bug reporting this again as it massively devalues the gear.
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    @Surjiak, do you know the procedure or "how to" do the reporting and feedback to Blizzard? If you know, please do it. Can link to this thread also.
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    Sure, I'll make some time to do it.
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    argh I just did a whole list of calculation but it disappeared when I posted it.

    but according to my calculation, it is 10 second mana reduction. it is not as clear cut as gunner seems to say it is.

    rather than post all my ticks and stuff again, I'll just summarize my findings.

    Assuming Nubtro's calculations are right,

    at 1.53 APS I got 3.16 ticks per second. at 45 mana regen,
    in 1 second, I should have spent 59.28 mana
    and in 10 seconds, 592.8 mana

    I ran the calculation for 10 seconds.

    at start of channel = 627 mana
    at 10 second mark my mana left = 149 mana

    478 mana spent in 10 seconds = 47.8 mana per second.

    59.28 mana - 47.8 mana = 11.48 mana saved per second

    I'm not sure why it is slightly higher but probably got to do with the mana regen/ rounding and stuff.

    BUT IT IS WITHIN THE 10 MANA REDUCTION THAT IS ON MY SOJ TOOLTIP

    tell me if I am doing this wrongly.
    Edited by EremiteAngel#6608 on 8/3/2013 5:52 AM PDT
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    at 1.53 APS I got 3.16 ticks per second. at 45 mana regen,in 1 second, I should have spent 59.28 manaand in 10 seconds, 592.8 mana


    If you're hitting 1.5 times per sec, you should be spending 1.5 x 66 mana = 99 mana every sec.
    Let's say 31 ticks in 10 secs, total mana spent = 31 x 66 = 2046 mana

    45 regen means, in 10 secs, total mana regen = 450 mana

    Your net loss in mana should be (627 + 450) - 2046 = 1077 - 2046 = -969 mana
    You should have OOM long ago. Unless your -FB is doing a miracle, something is very wrong with your numbers or controlled test environment.

    08/03/2013 05:50 AMPosted by EremiteAngel
    it is 10 second mana reduction


    also, the -FB stat is independent of time, it's not like cooldown of spell, it's a reduction of mana cost per cast.
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    each tick is 33 mana only. 31 x 33
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    i did the same test for -12 vog + -10 soj.

    without reduction at 58 mana regen = around 47 mana spent per sec

    with 22 reduction my mana at start and end after 10 sec gave around 30 mana spent per sec

    which is a reduc of 17 mana per sec.

    which isn't a 22 lol. guess I am counting this the wrong way =D
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    08/03/2013 06:57 AMPosted by EremiteAngel
    each tick is 33 mana only. 31 x 33


    Let's say 31 ticks in 10 secs, total mana spent = 31 x 33 = 1023 mana

    45 regen means, in 10 secs, total mana regen = 450 mana

    Your remaining mana should be (627 + 450) - 2046 = 1077 - 1023 = 54 mana

    Your remaining mana with the help of -FB = 149 mana
    which means the -FB helped by 149 - 54 over 10 secs, which is 95 mana in 10 secs,
    or 9.5 mana per sec

    But, in 1 sec you have 3.16 ticks. so you only got -3FB mana cost per tick.
    That's is still in line with Gunner's calculations of one-quarter FB stat per tick, or half FB stat per cast, definitely no where near -10FB per cast as the gear description suggests.
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    if i count it by ticks, then I get the same result as gunners lol. 2.4 per tick with -10 soj and 5. something per tick with -22 reduc gear.

    guess i typed so much but said nothing useful in the end lol =D
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    08/03/2013 07:20 AMPosted by EremiteAngel
    which is a reduc of 17 mana per sec.


    17 / 3.12 ticks = 5.45 mana per tick, which is also about one-quarter of your total -22FB. In line with gunner's calculations.
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    08/03/2013 07:26 AMPosted by EremiteAngel
    guess i typed so much but said nothing useful in the end lol =D


    What you did was very useful, you just confirmed the test findings, giving us grounds to get Blizzard's attention to tell them they got their gear stat wrong.
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    thx XD and yes I think we need to hammer this into them. or at least word the tooltip clearly.
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    Thanks for the great work! How about "mana discount by %" like BR passive?
    It works exactly the opposite as PtV?

    Please edit and include BR passive.



    Sure I'll run some BR numbers tonight.


    That means, -FB is rather terrible as a gear stat.


    Ya I think that means SOJ for mana reduction isn't worth much unless you are running one hander. My one handed setup is 1.87 APS, so I do get close to the full reduction from the channel, but still don't get squat on the initial cost.
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    Just as an aside, I had tried running PtV with a Giuya earlier and it didn't work out well at all, but running with a mana regen vision made it very playable.

    Guess I know why now.
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    Ya I think that means SOJ for mana reduction isn't worth much unless you are running one hander. My one handed setup is 1.87 APS, so I do get close to the full reduction from the channel,


    This was where I was trying to correct you in my first post.

    You don't get near -10 FB. When your APS is 2, you get 4 ticks per sec, so 10 mana reduction in total is still -5FB per cast. Same ratios as your research result.

    My post sums up your results, although I'm waiting for the confirmation for BR passive before I update my CoB mechanics and link to your thread.
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    08/03/2013 12:11 PMPosted by PaulNg
    Ya I think that means SOJ for mana reduction isn't worth much unless you are running one hander. My one handed setup is 1.87 APS, so I do get close to the full reduction from the channel,


    This was where I was trying to correct you in my first post.

    You don't get near -10 FB. When your APS is 2, you get 4 ticks per sec, so 10 mana reduction in total is still -5FB per cast. Same ratios as your research result.

    My post sums up your results, although I'm waiting for the confirmation for BR passive before I update my CoB mechanics and link to your thread.


    I'm not sure I follow. I get almost 4 ticks per second at 1.87 and reduce it 2.2 per tick (I have a -9), so my total reduction per second is close to 8.8 which is almost 9.

    Ignoring anything in the frame analysis, I can see how at 2 APS, your channel cost is twice as much, so you could hope the reduction might be twice as much, in which case this would be half what you would hope for.

    I never thought it worked like that though. I always assumed it was a reduction per second, so it's pretty close at my APS to what I had originally assumed (except for the initial cast reduction.)

    Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, or misunderstanding my own data, but that's how I looked at it.
    Edited by GunnersDream#1109 on 8/3/2013 6:20 PM PDT
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    Updated first post with Blood Ritual numbers
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