Diablo® III

Cloud of Bats Mana and SOJ Frame Analysis

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again i did not learn and my post got wiped when I tried to post it.

anyway, I did a test for all the rest of the runes.

at 1.53 aps, 45 mana regen, -10 soj

CoB
start of channel 627 mana end with 103 mana after 10 seconds.
discount of about 6.something mana per second, 2.2 mana per tick.

PB
start of channel 627 mana end with 98 mana after 10 seconds.
also discount of 6.something mana per second.
same mana per tick consumed. but is this the same as the number of stacks/dmg ouput?
nubtro got an analysis here that I don't really understand.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9423112857?page=5

hungry bats and vampire bats very similar to CoB and PB. also about 6.something mana discounted per second. but again I do not know how their damage is counted. is it also by ticks?

direbats different though. it starts at 631 mana and ends with 60 something mana. discount of 2.something mana per second.
probably has to do with this not being a split-tick-spell. its a channeling but one cast spell. that is damage is not split into ticks, but is given out in a single cast.

I'm not sure what the dmg out/stacks are like for the other runes but it seems like apart from direbats, every other rune ticks and consumes mana the same rate. but do they put out damage per tick? I don't know XD.

so direbats seems to fare the worst in terms of FB mana reduction.
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Good info - although I honestly don't know anything about the runes besides CoB and a little bit about plague.

I only learned how the mana works because Paul asked about it and I figured I could find out easy enough.
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this makes me sad :(

I really feel like when Blizz does something, they mess another thing up. Do they really know what they are doin???? :(
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So it appears as though you need at least 2 APS to get the full reduction you think you are getting with a SOJ (and you are still getting hosed on the initial casting cost reduction.)


Ok, let's rewind so that the research findings can be consistent with test results.

Using a -10 FB gear,
If your APS is 1, you cast 1 time (2 ticks) every sec. Gear gives you 5 mana discount. You use up (33 x 2) -5 mana each second.
If your APS is 1.5, you cast 1.5 times (3 ticks) every sec. Gear gives you 7.5 mana discount. You use up (33 x 3) - 7.5 mana each second.
If your APS is 2, you cast 2 times (4 ticks) every sec. Gear gives you 10 mana discount. You use up (33 x 4) -10 mana each second.
If your APS is 3, you cast 3 times (6 ticks) every sec. Gear gives you 15 mana discount. You use up (33 x 6) - 15 mana each second.
If your APS is 4, you cast 4 times (8 ticks) every sec. Gear gives you 20 mana discount. You use up (33 x 8) - 20 mana each second.

Can you see where I'm coming from? -FB stat is independent of APS. Therefore that statement I quoted is wrong. That statement suggests that we can expect a cross-over point as we push up our APS, until we can even get more than the gear's -FB value. We can never achieve the "full reduction", because we always get half that -FB value per cast

Your test approach is frame by frame, to find out the magnitude of mana reduction every time consumption is triggered. It was independent of "per second" as a test parameter, so there's no need to bring in "per second" and lead to confusion..

My summary of your results in my first reply, is consistent with the "per cast" description of the -FB stat, independent of time (seconds). The -FB stat has nothing to do with time.
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Ya I definitely see where you're coming from - you are thinking of cost reduction as a per tick reduction (apologies if that is not true.)

But let's forget about any analysis for a second.

I think most folks think of channeled spells cost as the cost per second, because at 1 APS that's what it is. Then you simply multiply your APS by that channel cost and you get the real channel cost per second. I don't know if this is always the case, but it is on Disintegrate, CoB, and Ray of Frost (three channeled spells I've looked at a decent amount.)

So going from that, intuitively I would have thought a reduction in cost of a channeled spell would simply reduce whatever that final cost is by the reduction cost.

So say channeled spell cost 40 mana/sec. At 2 APS, I pay 80 mana/sec. At 3 APS, I pay 120 mana/sec. With a -20 cost item I would have assumed I paid 20 mana/sec at 1 APS, 60 mana/sec at 2 APS, 100 mana/sec at 3 APS

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, regarding specifically the firebats reduction cost at 2 APS, the reduction is about what I would have assumed it to be (however right or wrong that assumption is.)
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08/03/2013 08:56 PMPosted by GunnersDream
I think most folks think of channeled spells cost as the cost per second,


I don't think so. It depends on the skill. For CoB, the principle is that 1 cast = 2 ticks.

Do it for weird numbers especially, like 1.78 APS, 2.36 APS. That would be close to saying 1.78 casts per sec, and 2.36 casts per sec. Nubtro's research confirmed this in his "APS brackets".

For your previous logic flow, it cannot reconcile with the fact that APS=4 will lead to -20 mana reduction, when the gear stat is -10FB. That's why that stat is per cast, and not per sec.

Channeling for CoB is also per cast, not per sec. When you have higher APS, you cast more frequently, the moment the alternate tick arrives, it triggers the next cast (once every 2 ticks).

Some channels are real-time (I think Sleet Storm falls under this category), so every frame groups up all the "group ticks", and we see lots of very small numbers. Every time a "group tick" is calculated (perhaps 60 times a second), the resource is also consumed in that same proportion)That's also why Sleet Storm gear stat is +%CHC and not resource reduction.

This probably explains why you're thinking in terms of per sec. Within the "channel family" there are different types of mechanics. As a parallel, DoT skills are independent to APS, and they have a standard 2 ticks per sec (I'm thinking about Pestilence, Acid Cloud, Desecrate, Plagued here, not Wiz skills).

Edit: Having said that, PB also has a different channel mechanic from CoB, even though they are both Firebats. That means the -FB gear stat will work differently for PB users, some other formula that involves APS.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/3/2013 10:29 PM PDT
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Very interested post.

I am definitely interested on seeing some testing, vids and charts on this aspect of SoJ.

I personally use it for the elite damage, and any mana reduction I can get to bats is a bonus, especially when my alternative is to run an IAS ring to even come close to the same DPS.
Edited by Cogito#1486 on 8/4/2013 4:35 PM PDT
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08/03/2013 10:24 PMPosted by PaulNg
I think most folks think of channeled spells cost as the cost per second,


I don't think so. It depends on the skill. For CoB, the principle is that 1 cast = 2 ticks.

Do it for weird numbers especially, like 1.78 APS, 2.36 APS. That would be close to saying 1.78 casts per sec, and 2.36 casts per sec. Nubtro's research confirmed this in his "APS brackets".

For your previous logic flow, it cannot reconcile with the fact that APS=4 will lead to -20 mana reduction, when the gear stat is -10FB. That's why that stat is per cast, and not per sec.

Channeling for CoB is also per cast, not per sec. When you have higher APS, you cast more frequently, the moment the alternate tick arrives, it triggers the next cast (once every 2 ticks).

Some channels are real-time (I think Sleet Storm falls under this category), so every frame groups up all the "group ticks", and we see lots of very small numbers. Every time a "group tick" is calculated (perhaps 60 times a second), the resource is also consumed in that same proportion)That's also why Sleet Storm gear stat is +%CHC and not resource reduction.

This probably explains why you're thinking in terms of per sec. Within the "channel family" there are different types of mechanics. As a parallel, DoT skills are independent to APS, and they have a standard 2 ticks per sec (I'm thinking about Pestilence, Acid Cloud, Desecrate, Plagued here, not Wiz skills).

Edit: Having said that, PB also has a different channel mechanic from CoB, even though they are both Firebats. That means the -FB gear stat will work differently for PB users, some other formula that involves APS.


Ya I've been thinking more about it and your way makes more sense. Hopefully Blizzard can fix it then because the reduction would be really nice if you got the reduction / 2 every tick.

I have some reduced cost disintegrate items, so I'll look into that when I get a chance and see if it's similarly neutered.
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Not sure if anyone post this before but this sound like normal breakpoint behavior of D3 game.

I don't really play Witch Doctor but when tool tips say 501% this refer at 1.0APS.
So to explain the OP tick rate

At 1.0APS, CoB will tick 2 times which is equal to 30 frames per tick and D3 game frame rate is 60.

@1.0 APS - Frame per tick
= INT(30/APS) = 30 frames per tick

@ 1.0 APS D3 has 60 frames per sec
= 60/30 = 2 Ticks per sec
= 1 Tick will deal (501/2)% Damage
= 1 Tick will cost 33 Mana per channel

Actual eDPS & Cost of Channel per sec (did not include % gain CoB rune yet)
= 501% Damage at 66 Mana per sec

If you want to play at 4 tick per sec, the best optimal value for APS is 1.88

@1.88APS - Frame per tick
= INT(30/APS) = 15 frames per tick

@1.88APS - D3 has 60 frames per sec
= 60/15 = 4 Tick per sec
= 1 Tick will deal (501/2)% Damage
= 1 Tick cost 33 Mana per channel

Actual eDPS & Cost of Channel per sec (did not include % gain CoB rune yet)
= 1002% Damage at 132 Mana per sec

Edit - I could be wrong, need to test as well
Edited by vaansteer#6919 on 8/4/2013 9:37 PM PDT
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Ya I'm pretty sure the channeling costs were known prior to me researching.

This post was really more about the mana reduction from the SOJ.

Although that's some good info. Didn't know the APS of 1.88 was special.
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Interesting - this is the kind of stuff that should be presented to the blues.
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Although that's some good info. Didn't know the APS of 1.88 was special.


For CoB, all the breakpoints are special.
1.43 is the same as 1.50
1.88 is the same as 2.00
etc.

Helps in planning for gear purchase.
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thanks for this info gunner

wonderfull research

when i purchased my SOJ the cost reduction wasnt really what i was looking at anyway
even though 10 looks nice i always knew that the 10 reduction in cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the costs involved on COB.

but this info will help others decided that maybe they dont need to worry or be concerned about the cost reduction on this ring

tbh my thought has always been it takes it off the intial cast

anyway ty for the research buddy
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tbh my thought has always been it takes it off the intial cast

anyway ty for the research buddy



Funny that it turns out that is where it's the least useful and I'm glad you could find the info helpful.
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wtf mates, is low or high aps good for wd?
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