Diablo® III

About DH's Weakness 'suggestion

DH have 0 problems with surviving anything thrown at them.

My DH in fact, hasn't died in months.
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That is something that I thought was obvious xD I thought we were one of the best tanks. I remember we were immortal w/ jagged spikes at one point

Xenophis I wonder how well u can make a hardcore DH tank lol
Edited by VocaloidNyan#1582 on 8/12/2013 10:11 AM PDT
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That is something that I thought was obvious xD I thought we were one of the best tanks. I remember we were immortal w/ jagged spikes at one point

Xenophis I wonder how well u can make a hardcore DH tank lol


Heh, honestly if I had the time to invest in flipping and getting gear for a new decent HC DH, I would definitely move over to HC. I prefer the mentality of that community due to my nature as a tank. Unfortunately there is no way I can get there starting from scratch right now.
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my play is wrong?video see plz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3Ne29uvm8&feature=share&list=UUWoqoGyrPLW-F8-qwAvRQ9g kidding me?


Whoa! that's really slow... your items are decent. IMO its the skill / passive build
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He has 0 dps passives lol
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I smell troll.
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I sympathize with your overarching complaint, however, I don't want hatred on crit and I believe the delay that some skills have is necessary to offset the skill's higher damage. Furthermore, let's examine the skills with a noticeable delay from a fantasy perspective: Bola and Spike. Both of these skill use explosives.

In the case of Bola, it acts similar to chain shot, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain-shot , and has two explosives that are set off by a fuse.

Now, looking at Spike Trap, it has an arming time. How the exact mechanism works I don't know; however, I can tell you that in today's military we use devices that have arming times. For example, the M-203 grenade launcher (the rifle Arnold used in Predator had an M-203 mounted on it) fires a 40 mm grenade. The M-203 is rifled, just like a regular rifle, thus the projectile spins as it arcs through the air. Now, the grenades have a built in arming mechanism that works the following way: once launched, the grenade needs to travel a minimum of 25 yards before it's armed (i.e. it has to complete a set number of revolutions, four, I believe).

Therefore, I believe that the time delay on certain skills is needed for the reasons explained above and recapped here: 1) offsets the higher damage of the skill, and 2) adds to the fantasy element of how the Demon Hunter's arsenal works.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 8/12/2013 9:08 PM PDT
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DH feels fine right now. The playstyle of a DH is different than other classes, but that doesn't mean it is weaker. It is much more skillful to play a DH than a WW barb or CM wiz, but it's so much more entertaining. Also, you have so many options available to you in terms of how you want to play. Most classes have only a couple of effective builds, but DH players enjoy the ability to tinker with their characters and mix things up if a build is getting stale. As for the future of the DH, I hope they don't try to "help" us by "fixing" the very things we use to survive. Gloom, for all the hate it gets from people who think we "abuse" it, is necessary for our survival. I challenge any of them to be as effective without SP. You can only kite so far until you are out of room or out of discipline. If the decision is made to nerf something so crucial, I can only hope they give us another viable alternative to sustain (enemies drop more health globes... really?!?). I don't care if a barb is able to stay in WOTB for an hour straight. It doesn't matter to me. I'm glad that CM wizards can keep things in perma-freeze. It's fun when your character runs smoothly. I don't get aggravated about things like that; in fact, I made a CM wiz just because I was interested in what the wizards I play with were doing. If you don't enjoy playing DH, maybe it would be good for you to try another class. You might find that it fits your playstyle better.
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08/12/2013 10:49 PMPosted by HappyPink
Gloom, for all the hate it gets from people who think we "abuse" it, is necessary for our survival


1 - Not this again. Gloom is only necessary for glass cannons who want to tank above their heads. There are plenty of well built DH's out there that don't need this crutch.

2 - Gloom + RF snapshot = no skill. Its right down there with WW barbs and macro CM wizards.

3 - You say DH feels fine when you're using the most over-buffed skill in the DH arsenal. Where does that leave the rest of DH skills? Your whole argument is flawed in more ways than I care to get into my friend.
Edited by Saturn#1404 on 8/13/2013 8:21 AM PDT
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Saturn is right, Happy, your argument is flawed in that you state that the DH is fine, but then you say Gloom is required and ranged play is impossible. How is that okay?

I, on the other hand, believe the DH is in a good spot as evidenced by the amount of build diversity we have, and that ranged play is possible.
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I see the DH from two perspectives...

The TLDR is that I feel our class can hang with the other classes... BUT... its takes significantly more gold and significantly more skill in order to acheive it.

Now, let's dig deeper...

When properly geared and properly spec'd, the DH class can dish out very good damage. Can we dish ANY attack that hits as hard as the OP attacks of other classes? No, and I argue that we are not supposed to.

Why is this?

The reason why our attacks are weaker than melee can be summed up in one phrase: "we have range". This may sound ridiculous in a world where MP10 monsters are nothing more than giant health bags, but hear me out...

What I mean by saying "we have range" is that our attacks will reach an enemy before the melee class can get within striking distance. By this very concept alone, we have the abilty to kill mobs and monsters before they reach us or our melee counter parts. Melee, on the other hand, has to get right next to every monster in order to do its damage. This takes time.

So, what if our class had some ridiculous buffs? What if we had the same weapon damage modifiers as say... a Monk? What if our Cluster Arrow hit for 800% on impact? What if Ball of Lightning did 250% damage, or if each Chakram could tick multiple times?

I can tell you what would happen... we would break the game. Everything on the screen would get crushed before anyone else could even swing an axe, because a Barb/Wiz/Monk/WD cannot outrun our attacks. We (DH's) would see the mob and burn it down before they could even get within range.

So, that leaves where we are today, with attacks that pale in comparison with melee.

Now, in my opinion, what heighten's the perception of this problem is overwhelming reliance on Gloom-Tanking. For many (I'd argue most), the path to upper MP relies on stacking a fair amount of mitigation and Critical Hit Chance to fuel Nightstalker for permanent Gloom uptime. This is a very powerful ability, and its exceptionally viable as a build option... one that will definitely pave a way for you to MP10.

The problem with the Gloom-Tanking concept is that you are now playing squarely in the sandbox of the melee character... and if you remember my point from earlier, we don't have jack for damage when compared to the other melees classes. Simply put, by turtling up and going with Gloom-Tanking, you neuter your ability to dish out damage.

Why does this reduce your damage?

The short answer is passive options. Fueling Gloom is arguably most effective by running Nightstalker (there are other ways, but this is the common method). The second issue is that you lose 20% of your damage because Steady Aim is not an option when face-tanking.

Many people look at the Steady Aim passive and give it a derisive snort. How can that possibly be effective? Monsters are always in your face!

The fact is, 10 yards is nothing, and its surprisingly easy to achieve the buff. It just takes some tactics and a bit of practice. It also helps to be geared properly. The key thing (subjectively) for running a ranged build is to be able to kill around 80% of the content before it reaches you.

Naturally, for MP10, this requires some pretty hefty gear, but that's the price we pay for playing this class... and really, its the same for all of the other classes. Other classes may have a lower price of admission to the MP10 club, but go ask the Wizard forum how much it takes to clear MP10, efficiently, with the CMWW build...

Better yet, go ask how much it would cost for a WWRend Barb to take down a MP10 gobline ;o)

After experiencing 800 hours with this class, my DH with only 260 unbuffed dps, can clear MP10 faster at range than I can when I go with a Gloom-Tank build. Its not as easy, its takes a lot more concentration, but its more rewarding. If I had to point to one build that really opened the doors for me, I'd have to give a nod to the Stone Cold setup by Dieoxide.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#Qackgj!eYc!ccZaYb

Sorry for being long winded, Happy Hunting.
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Excellent post.

Couldn't agree more.

I mentioned this same thing with Venom and DiE a couple weeks ago.

This is exactly why I said some time ago that I only want to see buffs that make Demon Hunters play even more like Demon Hunters. Which isn't the same thing as a damage buff or nerf.
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Well said, Tropical. I would like to touch on your point regarding the benefits of ranged over melee. Back in the original inferno, the inherent benefit of ranged play was on full display. We didn't have to chase down spear hurtling goat men, and we could kill the melee mobs before they got to us. However, introduction of MPs and buffs to other chars completely changed the paradigm. In high MPs, we could no longer kill the mobs before they got to us, thus making us kite more, or tank.

Furthermore, while in old inferno the damage disparity between class skills wasn't very noticeable, but as enemy health increased, the gap widened. To use an orienteering analogy, if one's azimuth is off by 2 degrees and their objective is only 200 meters away, the error is negligible. If, however, the intrepid navigator's objective is 2 km distant, then the 2 degree error will cause him no small amount of consternation in finding his way. Therefore, just as our navigator's error wasn't noticeable at 200 meters, so too, was the discrepancy in skill damage in old inferno not noticeable. However, as one variable changes, distance and monster health, the once small discrepancy becomes more and more pronounced.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 8/14/2013 5:29 AM PDT
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Tropicalypso @

yes because we all know how d2 range classes completely broke the game. The sooner many of you admit many d3 developers simply made too many design mistakes, the quicker we can move along to much better debates like how we can improve the class.

If it makes you feel better to make excuses for other people's mistakes, that's fine but do not sit there telling DH community we're not suppose to compete with other classes. You might aswell just say, our class is perfectly fine. We just need a slight buff, everything else is just fine right? come on..

I reckon you look at d2 more. The design flaws we're dealing with is rather pitiful and slap in the face actually. I shouldn't have to be punished for rolling the demon hunter, and I should have every right, and same potential to compete with others classes.
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Tropicalypso @

yes because we all know how d2 range classes completely broke the game. The sooner many of you admit many d3 developers simply made too many design mistakes, the quicker we can move along to much better debates like how we can improve the class.

If it makes you feel better to make excuses for other people's mistakes, that's fine but do not sit there telling DH community we're not suppose to compete with other classes. You might aswell just say, our class is perfectly fine. We just need a slight buff, everything else is just fine right? come on..

I reckon you look at d2 more. The design flaws we're dealing with is rather pitiful and slap in the face actually. I shouldn't have to be punished for rolling the demon hunter, and I should have every right, and same potential to compete with others classes.


The monsters in D2 also had resistances bro.

If this game had that sort of thing, then your post would make a bit more sense.

It would also make more sense if the flow of combat and mechanics were the same... but it isn't.
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The monsters in D2 also had resistances bro.

If this game had that sort of thing, then your post would make a bit more sense.

It would also make more sense if the flow of combat and mechanics were the same... but it isn't.


it would also make sense to remember d3 has design flaws not just our dear demon hunter. If you willing to look the other way fine but stop convincing others the class is perfectly fine. I still can't believe he said we're not suppose to compete with other classes, what waste of long explanation which says "we're fine as we are, basically."

stop refusing to admit to our class design flaws and ignoring our huge eDPS issue differences compared to other classes. Stop finding reasons to keep us down with your twisted logic.
If d3 had one class nobody would compare it to anything, the fact that you're agreeing and saying we shouldn't compare ourselves to other classes and we're fine as we are, you're keeping us down, stoping us from growing.

As i said before look at d2 more often and realize what we're dealing with isn't "fine." every class must equal potential.
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The monsters in D2 also had resistances bro.

If this game had that sort of thing, then your post would make a bit more sense.

It would also make more sense if the flow of combat and mechanics were the same... but it isn't.


it would also make sense to remember d3 has design flaws not just our dear demon hunter. If you willing to look the other way fine but stop convincing others the class is perfectly fine. I still can't believe he said we're not suppose to compete with other classes, what waste of long explanation which says "we're fine as we are, basically."

stop refusing to admit to our class design flaws and ignoring our huge eDPS issue differences compared to other classes. Stop finding reasons to keep us down with your twisted logic.
If d3 had one class nobody would compare it to anything, the fact that you're agreeing and saying we shouldn't compare ourselves to other classes and we're fine as we are, you're keeping us down, stoping us from growing.

As i said before look at d2 more often and realize what we're dealing with isn't "fine." every class must equal potential.


You're putting words in my mouth.

So I'm just going to stop right here.
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[quote][

You're putting words in my mouth.

So I'm just going to stop right here.


"Excellent post.

Couldn't agree more."

I don't have to put words in your mouth. you agreed with everything he said. didn't challenge him on any points, didnt bother to question his understanding. You fully understood what he said, and agreed 100%. sorry but what am I missing here.

so when YOU replied to me, I replied to you regrading how YOU agreed with everything he said. I'm talking to you as I would speak to him since you have no issues whatsoever with his post.
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How about all of you grow up and stop playing the he said she said stuff. Stay on topic. Thank you.
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