Diablo® III

About DH's Weakness 'suggestion

Sentry's Cooldown needs to be reworked, at least drop them to 0.

It should be similar to spike traps, you could spam it , but within casting limits. ( 6 with CE)
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Tropicalypso @

yes because we all know how d2 range classes completely broke the game. The sooner many of you admit many d3 developers simply made too many design mistakes, the quicker we can move along to much better debates like how we can improve the class.

If it makes you feel better to make excuses for other people's mistakes, that's fine but do not sit there telling DH community we're not suppose to compete with other classes. You might aswell just say, our class is perfectly fine. We just need a slight buff, everything else is just fine right? come on..

I reckon you look at d2 more. The design flaws we're dealing with is rather pitiful and slap in the face actually. I shouldn't have to be punished for rolling the demon hunter, and I should have every right, and same potential to compete with others classes.


I've never felt punished for rolling a DH since day one, then again I play the game a bit different than most and actually enjoy the game play and challenges of the DH class.

What tropicalyspo said holds a lot of truth, whether you agree with it or not. It seems more so that he hit a personal nerve with you because you're taking a bit of what he said out of context and over-exaggeration. I don't think you get the core of what he's saying.

No one is trying to keep the class down. No one is denying "some" of the issues the class face. I'm sure everyone knows and we see this on a daily basis whether its through constant whining or the very few, well constructed thought out post. All he did was provide a different perspective than the norm and you somehow get defensive as if he's trying to take away your ability to play, watch tv and jack off at the same time, or stop you from being able to do all of the above as efficient as other classes.

There's a lot more to this game/class than most people know here, and that's because we simply do not need to know these things to "beat" the game, and most build their characters/spec to the point where the game can play itself so for most, it's "why bother?" and then boredom sets in rather quickly.
Of course it doesn't have to be this way, since it's as simple as a choice.

It wouldn't kill you to be a bit more open minded.
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Krak,

For what its worth, I would welcome any buffs that Blizzard would throw our way.

I definitely feel that there are quite a few areas that our class could be improved on, but I also feel that the class isn't quite as bad as what many make it out to be.
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08/13/2013 06:40 PMPosted by Mao
It should be similar to spike traps, you could spam it , but within casting limits. ( 6 with CE)

lol

Is it just me or that you are suggesting to make sentry "6".

I would suggest removing the cooldown, put the skill back on to a discipline skill, let it crit for white, but still no proc. And make default allowed number to be "1".

nothing will be change to CE, so when you have that passive slot in you get 3 sentry at no cooldown. Players that are willing to give in for CE will get 3 those that don't gets only 1. Pretty fair imo.
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ah.. 6 as in for spike traps :P
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To me there seems to be 2 playing styles.

That of the ranged solo DH who can take all the time in the world to kill his demons and that of a DH in a group of barb's, WD's and Wiz's and Monk's.

Imo the reason OP raised this thread is to highlight the deficiencies in the DH build when farming with the other classes, ie. our eDPS discrepancy.

Perhaps those of you who keep insisting that the DH class is not broken could make video's to show how well you can farm in MP10 with other classes and show your speed at killing demons.

ie. is farm with a group of 4, say a barb and a wiz and a monk or whatever combination you prefer.
as long as it is one DH only.

I would like to see that and then it would show everyone how a true DH should play.
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To me there seems to be 2 playing styles.

That of the ranged solo DH who can take all the time in the world to kill his demons and that of a DH in a group of barb's, WD's and Wiz's and Monk's.

Imo the reason OP raised this thread is to highlight the deficiencies in the DH build when farming with the other classes, ie. our eDPS discrepancy.

Perhaps those of you who keep insisting that the DH class is not broken could make video's to show how well you can farm in MP10 with other classes and show your speed at killing demons.

ie. is farm with a group of 4, say a barb and a wiz and a monk or whatever combination you prefer.
as long as it is one DH only.

I would like to see that and then it would show everyone how a true DH should play.


We see what the OP is saying. What some of us are saying is that we aren't nearly as "bad" as some claim. Some of us like to focus on the positive and the good about the class instead. No one is trying to stroke E-peen here, nor is anyone saying there aren't "issues." This horse has been beaten to death, skinned and it's corpse has rotted months ago.
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08/13/2013 01:20 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
This is exactly why I said some time ago that I only want to see buffs that make Demon Hunters play even more like Demon Hunters. Which isn't the same thing as a damage buff or nerf.


Statements like this are why we have all the misconceptions on what is being posted.

After reading that, all the other posts suddenly had a different meaning, even if that wasn't the intended meaning.

Why do people insist on defining how a DH should play? Why is your way the right way (and it deserves a buff) but the way another player plays is wrong (so it should be frowned upon?)

Do I enjoy playing the DH'er? Yes I do. Is my way of playing the right way? For me yes but that is just how I enjoy it. Is your way of playing the right way? For you I'm sure the answer is also Yes.

That's the best thing about the DH, there are multiple ways to play and they are all Right. In the future lets all agree on this and make suggestions that benefit all the play styles instead of making bias comments that serve to only benefit part of the community.
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Perhaps those of you who keep insisting that the DH class is not broken could make video's to show how well you can farm in MP10 with other classes and show your speed at killing demons.

ie. is farm with a group of 4, say a barb and a wiz and a monk or whatever combination you prefer.
as long as it is one DH only.

I would like to see that and then it would show everyone how a true DH should play.


Actually chaz (and possibly w/ nubtro lol hi) is theorycrafting some stuff to beat his DE record (group) using sever/grim reaper, my snapshotting stuff, and speed. It might be possible to beat using a DH (yay?) but even with my crazy snapshotting, unless I have 100% dps passives (archery, cull the weak, steady aim), my DH will have less eDPS than his barb on bombardment (yo wtf he has over 1m dps buffed, no insanity rune). In DE farming, I have to use tatical advantage.

Unfortunately, this is totally not how a DH should play lol, but just letting you know what current atm.
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When it comes to the argument of ranged versus tank play, there isn't a right or wrong answer.

Both styles are very effective. I play both styles. I love both styles.

However, I am pretty certain that Blizzard will never buff our Weapon Dmg modifiers to be on par with melee.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if they did, but they won't, and I can paint a picture as to why...

Imagine if a Monk could hit their bell attack from across the map? Or if a Barb could land a HotA from 40 yards out at will?

That's about what it would be like if we had our skills buffed to melee levels.

Now, I do think there are many aspects of our class that need to be fixed:

Actives

    Impale - Costs too much for its Damage output, get's outshined by Hungering Arrow
    Caltrops - Jagged Spikes should have its proc back
    Smoke Screen - Bring back the original durations
    Vault - Bring back the 1500% over 3 seconds, its not imbalanced for MP10
    Bola - Make Acid Strike viable
    Fan of Knives - Reduce/Remove cooldown
    Elemental Arrow - Buff the dmg (within reason) and bring back pre-nerf NT
    Sentry - Honestly, why do we have cooldowns on this?
    Cluster Arrow - Relatively weak for such high cost
    Rain of Vengeance - Reduce the cooldown, or offer cooldown reduction in gear.


Passives

Thrill of the Hunt - Reduce cooldown
Hot Pursuit - Allow movement speed to go over 25% cap
Archery - Throw a bone to the Dual Wield crowd
Grenadier - Replace the stupid "grenade on death" with something meaningful

Naturally, this list is subjective to my thoughts and opinions, but it gives you an idea of what I consider needs to be addressed.
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Imo we rely too much on our passives for damage since it is our only source of a damage buff with the exception of bait the trap.
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When it comes to the argument of ranged versus tank play, there isn't a right or wrong answer.

Both styles are very effective. I play both styles. I love both styles.

However, I am pretty certain that Blizzard will never buff our Weapon Dmg modifiers to be on par with melee.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if they did, but they won't, and I can paint a picture as to why...

Imagine if a Monk could hit their bell attack from across the map? Or if a Barb could land a HotA from 40 yards out at will?

That's about what it would be like if we had our skills buffed to melee levels.

Now, I do think there are many aspects of our class that need to be fixed:

Actives

    Impale - Costs too much for its Damage output, get's outshined by Hungering Arrow
    Caltrops - Jagged Spikes should have its proc back
    Smoke Screen - Bring back the original durations
    Vault - Bring back the 1500% over 3 seconds, its not imbalanced for MP10
    Bola - Make Acid Strike viable
    Fan of Knives - Reduce/Remove cooldown
    Elemental Arrow - Buff the dmg (within reason) and bring back pre-nerf NT
    Sentry - Honestly, why do we have cooldowns on this?
    Cluster Arrow - Relatively weak for such high cost
    Rain of Vengeance - Reduce the cooldown, or offer cooldown reduction in gear.


Passives

Thrill of the Hunt - Reduce cooldown
Hot Pursuit - Allow movement speed to go over 25% cap
Archery - Throw a bone to the Dual Wield crowd
Grenadier - Replace the stupid "grenade on death" with something meaningful

Naturally, this list is subjective to my thoughts and opinions, but it gives you an idea of what I consider needs to be addressed.


Regarding cool downs on Sentry and FoK, I, unlike most, think they're just fine and serve a purpose. Look at it this way, skills have costs; some cost hatred, others disc, while still others cost time. So in effect, the DH has to manage 3 resources: Hatered, Disc, and Time.

Say they remove the cooldown on Sentry, and instead increased the hatred cost to 50. How much harder would it be for the DH to manage hatred in this new paradigm?

I believe cooldowns are a boon to DHs when it comes to theory crafting a build as it presents then with more options (e.g. one reason why I use RoV is because it doesn't consume my hatred, although I agree that the CD is a bit much for what we get).
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^

Yea, in reality, the Sentry cooldown doesn't really affect me that much... I don't ever really notice it.

The cooldown on FoK is a bit too long for my tastes... would like to see a slight reduction, especially since its not exactly cheap to cast.

Edit: FoK would be a pretty cool place to put a rune for cooldown reduction on crit.
Edited by Tropicalypso#1473 on 8/14/2013 11:33 AM PDT
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08/14/2013 04:40 AMPosted by Slay
This is exactly why I said some time ago that I only want to see buffs that make Demon Hunters play even more like Demon Hunters. Which isn't the same thing as a damage buff or nerf.


Statements like this are why we have all the misconceptions on what is being posted.

After reading that, all the other posts suddenly had a different meaning, even if that wasn't the intended meaning.

Why do people insist on defining how a DH should play? Why is your way the right way (and it deserves a buff) but the way another player plays is wrong (so it should be frowned upon?)

Do I enjoy playing the DH'er? Yes I do. Is my way of playing the right way? For me yes but that is just how I enjoy it. Is your way of playing the right way? For you I'm sure the answer is also Yes.

That's the best thing about the DH, there are multiple ways to play and they are all Right. In the future lets all agree on this and make suggestions that benefit all the play styles instead of making bias comments that serve to only benefit part of the community.


plot twist: I'm agreeing with you.

That's why I said what I said.

Understand, that I want to see changes that push the design of the class closer to the potential of what skills/passives/runes are actually doing or trying to do. Some stuff is just half assed, like Hot Pursuit(that obviously needs to change).

Feel me?
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Im not bother to go into too many details, but did small testing. It took me 850k dps on bombardment w/ SoJ and MfD to match chaz's 420k dps w/ SoJ on his HotA barb in his usual skills. (eDPS comparison).

Furthermore my dps isn't normally possible lol. As for play style, mine is completely wrong ^.^
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^

Yea, in reality, the Sentry cooldown doesn't really affect me that much... I don't ever really notice it.

The cool is a bit too long for my tastes... would like to see a slight reduction, especially since its not exactly cheap to cast.

Edit: FoK would be a pretty cool place to put a rune for cooldown reduction on crit.


I agree about FoK.

Currently, Sentry is pretty popular (I would definitely use it if I didn't DW hand crossbows with massive CHD), thus the resource cost seems to be palatable to many players.

On the other hand, FoK isn't used very much. This suggests to me that some adjustments need to be made to the cost/mechanics of the skill, and I think your suggestion is an excellent one.
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Im not bother to go into too many details, but did small testing. It took me 850k dps on bombardment w/ SoJ and MfD to match chaz's 420k dps w/ SoJ on his HotA barb in his usual skills. (eDPS comparison).

Furthermore my dps isn't normally possible lol. As for play style, mine is completely wrong ^.^


This goes hand in hand with your comment early about having skills that can increase damage, as the HotA Barb has a brilliant collection of damage buffs.

In fact, I'd argue (as many have before me) that the HotA setup on the Barb class is gamebreaking and completely imbalanced.

Why?

The HotA Barb is a single target monster because of the following:

    406% base weapon dmg from HotA
    +
    24% from Bash->Punishment bonus (lasts 5 seconds)
    +
    15% from Battle Rage (lasts 120 seconds)

All of which adds up to 445% Weapon Damage per Strike. That's a heavy hitter... but let's get into the really screwy part...

Barbs (as everyone knows) generate Fury on Crit. Stack enough attack speed and Crit, and you will gain a lot of Fury... quickly.

To compliment this concept, Barbarians have several different Critical Hit Chance boosters... the most notorious of which is baked right into the HotA skill. Basically, Barbs get 1% CC for every 5 Fury in their globe.

That's +20% CC for a Barb with base Fury.

Now add in the CC from other Skills and Passives

    3% from Battle Rage (lasts 120 seconds)
    +
    5% from Ruthless (passive)
    +
    10% from Weapons Master

This all adds up to 38% before factoring in CC from gear.

When built correctly with full buffs, a HotA Barb can acheive 100% CC, which when combined with the correct attack speed breakpoint, means permanent Wrath of the Bezerker, permanent CC Immunity, and permanent spamming of a 445% damage attack.

About the only thing I see as a detriment to this setup is the fact that its awful at AoE, and is boring as hell to run (literally, once you get into the feedback loop, you hold down the HotA skill and monitor your Fury burn to make sure you are burning enough Fury to maintain Wrath).

So, in this regard, yes, there is absolutely no way (short of Nyan snapshotting) that we (DH's) would compete with burning down an Uber/Elite/Goblin/Boss as fast as a Barbarian can.
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08/14/2013 12:20 PMPosted by ActionKungfu


Statements like this are why we have all the misconceptions on what is being posted.

After reading that, all the other posts suddenly had a different meaning, even if that wasn't the intended meaning.

Why do people insist on defining how a DH should play? Why is your way the right way (and it deserves a buff) but the way another player plays is wrong (so it should be frowned upon?)

Do I enjoy playing the DH'er? Yes I do. Is my way of playing the right way? For me yes but that is just how I enjoy it. Is your way of playing the right way? For you I'm sure the answer is also Yes.

That's the best thing about the DH, there are multiple ways to play and they are all Right. In the future lets all agree on this and make suggestions that benefit all the play styles instead of making bias comments that serve to only benefit part of the community.


plot twist: I'm agreeing with you.

That's why I said what I said.

Understand, that I want to see changes that push the design of the class closer to the potential of what skills/passives/runes are actually doing or trying to do. Some stuff is just half assed, like Hot Pursuit(that obviously needs to change).

Feel me?


I'm up with what's going on in the mind of most of you guys. I didn't actually think you had any bad intentions with your post. I was just pointing out how one statement could be misconstrued and end up causing even more posts to be misconstrued.

Peace :)
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Lol tropic, Chaz's paper dps w/ battle rage+WotB on thrive on chaos reaches almost 1m. That's just insane xD

Then there's the crit chance from HotA itself...

My 850k dps is only on RF...
Edited by VocaloidNyan#1582 on 8/14/2013 8:12 PM PDT
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^ Good Grief
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