Diablo® III

Sorry, Brevik, but Marvel Heroes sucks

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Yeah, several hundred hours with multiple Inferno completions is a "low amount of play time". lol


how is 7k elite kills several hundred hrs of time in inferno
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The huge problem with Marvel heroes is they state its an mmo. And once you state your game is an mmo.. Then you don't get compared to Diablo3. You get compared to games like Tera Rising, Rift, wow and others. Once you put yourself in that category then you deserve to get raked through the coals.

Marvel Heroes is an insult to mmo fans. Doesn't matter it was initially free. That free excuse is just an excuse. Its a game that was not designed well. Its a game that should have looked ten times better. and been developed with far more care and polish.

Its designed to get people to spend a lot of money to win. And that was terrible design.

Diablo3 will over time continue to keep strong. Considering that even after the great anti-d3 troll effort for the first 6 months .. it still has sold over 12 million copies. speaks to the strength of this game.

The expansion looks pretty damn awesome.
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Diablo3 will over time continue to keep strong. Considering that even after the great anti-d3 troll effort for the first 6 months .. it still has sold over 12 million copies. speaks to the strength of this game.

The expansion looks pretty damn awesome.

We'll see how well expansion sells and we'll then see if you're singing the same tune, btw are you saying the expansion looks awesome solely because of a cinematic suckering you or the actual gameplay? Because from the gameplay it looks bland as hell
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Brevik is a JOKE.

The COMPLETE industry (and this time NOT the forum trolls but the BIG guys, the pro reviewers) says Marvel Heroes is GARBAGE.

And guess what / his last attempt "Hellgate London" was a financial catastrophe AND considered garbage too.

At the same time this dude attacked ex co workers he worked with telling that "his" version of Diablo 3 would have been better.

LAUGHS: he can't even make a decent engine as shown by Hellgate and now Marvel Heroes.

In fact these games are soooo bad that all D2 fanatics AVOID the discussions because they can't win with this kind of terrible games.

I am not defending Wilson either, but Wilson made Company of Heroes and WH 40K Dawn of Wars as Lead game designer.

So in the last 10 years Wilson made 3 blockbusters out of 3.

Ever since Brevik left the Blizzard North stable he stumbled from one fiasco to another.

And btw: TL1/2 are garbage too. As even with basement prices these games are hardly played in tracking tools.
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Considering that even after the great anti-d3 troll effort for the first 6 months .. it still has sold over 12 million copies. speaks to the strength of this game.

People being disappointed, and or disagreeing with you is not the same as trolling. Get back in yo' hole/bridge underhang.

With likely less than 3m still playing (<25% retention rates for a LEGENDARY blizzard game), just over one year later. Pull up the same numbers for D2, after a year, I dare you.

08/25/2013 06:52 AMPosted by Pissedjedi
.. it still has sold over 12 million copies. speaks to the strength of this game.

No, it speaks to the strength of its fans, and the brand name, I doubt RoS will have 12m sales, and you can quote me on that.

(If RoS somehow sells MORE copies than D3 up to this point (IE- it brought in new players as well, THEN you can tell me I'm wrong)

08/25/2013 06:52 AMPosted by Pissedjedi
Its designed to get people to spend a lot of money to win. And that was terrible design.

Can't tell if you're talking about D3 or MH right now tbh.

08/25/2013 06:52 AMPosted by Pissedjedi
The expansion looks pretty damn awesome.
They made fun of us for not liking the "brightness" of diablo III... remember this?
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/10622-behold-the-new-diablo-iii-logo-t-shirt-concert/
(it's as if Bioware created tshirts calling people pansies for not enjoying the ending of ME3. I mean really... I thought we were all adults here....)
How about the pony level, that was a joke TOWARDS people who didn't like the light art direction?

NOW they decide we were right all along?

That's completely despicable, tbh.


What a load of bull crap really.

FIRST: GO TO Vgchartz and see that NO EXPANSION on an Original game EVER sells more than 30 to 40% of the Original box.

yep just look it up for D2 and its expansion: 30% tops.

---

SECOND 12 million boxes sold is NOT long term players. A few million will probably have just played it once through normal.

That's the case with ANY game these days: 80% of the buyers won't even finish the video games they buy on NORMAL.

So after all reading this stupidity: learn some facts boy before jumping to conclusions.
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At the same time this dude attacked ex co workers he worked with telling that "his" version of Diablo 3 would have been better.


You have a seriously funny definition of attacked if you consider what he said to be an attack.

Fact is, the Blizzard guy had thin skin and took the comments personally, followed by an actual verbal attack from Jay Wilson with his "!@#$ that loser" line.

Blizzard needs more criticism, to be honest. They've become far too arrogant for their own good.
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You really should not trust any public review and rating system on the internet when people can maintain anonymity. The reason being is because it is extremely common for people to bomb the score due to disliking the company or creator behind the product, many times without even trying the product. In fact, it happens on amazon, ebay, mmorpg.com, metacritic, rottentomatoes, you name it.

Don't forget that ACTIVISION-Blizzard is on people's hate list, whether warranted or not.
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I will admit Marvel heroes needs work,but patches are coming thick and fast.The Hulk has gone from maybe the worst hero to now playable at high levels,Thor as well.Unlike Blizzard they actually listen to customer feedback and work around the clock to improve the heroes and game.Next big patch is going to fix the defense system.

Unlike Diablo 3 the game has potential.
Edited by Bluddflagg#6648 on 8/29/2013 6:35 AM PDT
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Played D3 a few days ago because of RoS. Wanted to get my paragon level on my monk high enough before it comes out. Then I saw the new PATCH notes for MH and went back and leveled 3 more toons to 45.

The thing is, I have done more and felt rewarded in playing MH in 3 weeks than I have playing D3 for about a year. MH just continues to get better and that's why they deserve my business(money).
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Played D3 a few days ago because of RoS. Wanted to get my paragon level on my monk high enough before it comes out. Then I saw the new PATCH notes for MH and went back and leveled 3 more toons to 45.

The thing is, I have done more and felt rewarded in playing MH in 3 weeks than I have playing D3 for about a year. MH just continues to get better and that's why they deserve my business(money).

+1. The diffrence is that i made only 1 lvl with my barb and got bored (not even paragon)
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Diablo3 will over time continue to keep strong. Considering that even after the great anti-d3 troll effort for the first 6 months .. it still has sold over 12 million copies. speaks to the strength of this game.

The expansion looks pretty damn awesome.

We'll see how well expansion sells and we'll then see if you're singing the same tune, btw are you saying the expansion looks awesome solely because of a cinematic suckering you or the actual gameplay? Because from the gameplay it looks bland as hell


much better than marvel heroes.
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Feels good, man. Brevik always came across as a pompous !@# in that interview.

If only Jay hadn't responded like a complete idiot. Ah well.

But seriously, I don't think Brevik is all he's cracked up to be. I mean, how do you go from Diablo to... MH? Something was lost along the way. Or perhaps he never had it. I mean, MH doesn't have to be the godly second coming, but damn, where's the competence?

D3 has hands down the best ARPG combat I've ever played. It's just that right now the items are terrible in equal measure. If they fix that element, then no one will even bother to mention other ARPGs anymore.
Edited by Ignatius#1870 on 10/11/2013 12:28 PM PDT
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Marvel heroes suck, tried playing and getting into it for a few days but it's dull and combat is sloppy. It's slightly better than poe but it's just bad compared to D3. With RoS coming out soon as well as a huge tons of new modes/features, these clones will rot in the abyss.
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Feels good, man. Brevik always came across as a pompous !@# in that interview.

If only Jay hadn't responded like a complete idiot. Ah well.

But seriously, I don't think Brevik is all he's cracked up to be. I mean, how do you go from Diablo to... MH? Something was lost along the way. Or perhaps he never had it. I mean, MH doesn't have to be the godly second coming, but damn, where's the competence?

D3 has hands down the best ARPG combat I've ever played. It's just that right now the items are terrible in equal measure. If they fix that element, then no one will even bother to mention other ARPGs anymore.


Brevik stood on the shoulders of giants, that's how. Blizzard is still here... Mike, Chris, Rob, Frank... they have a lot of really talented, really intelligent people that have come through Blizzard or are still with them in some capacity. The big guy of Arena-Net and Guild Wars was initially with Blizzard I think. Mike O'Brien?

Anyways, my point is this: Brevik was like someone who had a good idea initially, like a stoner idea, and he started to put it to paper. I would guess though, that Blizzard was the real genius behind the game itself and its superior execution. Just my hunch considering he went on to release two flops in a row on his own.

Brevik is kind of like a tryhard in my mind. He is like a wannabe Icefrog. The guy who has a great idea, gets scooped up by geniuses and tries to hang on their level, but just can't. Contrast that to Icefrog of DotA who gets scooped up by Valve and has his game design still largely intact and now a universal hit.
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Brevik stood on the shoulders of giants, that's how. Blizzard is still here... Mike, Chris, Rob, Frank... they have a lot of really talented, really intelligent people that have come through Blizzard or are still with them in some capacity. The big guy of Arena-Net and Guild Wars was initially with Blizzard I think. Mike O'Brien?

Anyways, my point is this: Brevik was like someone who had a good idea initially, like a stoner idea, and he started to put it to paper. I would guess though, that Blizzard was the real genius behind the game itself and its superior execution. Just my hunch considering he went on to release two flops in a row on his own.


And yet that same "genius" that is still there, as you claim, put out the mess that is Diablo 3 (and if anyone tries to lay the blame for that on Jay, I hope they realize the contradiction they are supporting). The game that consistently claimed to be all about the loot hunt, all about interesting affixes and gear choices, yet launches with a game design that on one side didn't live up to its own set of expectations as voiced by the developers and on the other side undermined its own design via the inclusion of a real money market.

The same "genius" that took nearly a year to admit that there are serious issues with the design of loot and itemization in this game, and are taking another year after admitting that to implement it into the game.

Outside of the satisfying feel of combat, Diablo 3 just isn't a good ARPG - it's currently outclassed in skill design, stat design, re-playability, and "stuff to do" design by other games from much smaller studios...studios that also make the Blizzard development team look like they are standing still.

Also, something I missed the first time this thread was being fed by the Blizzard shills:

The Condor team had no hope of making the game they aspired to build, but they did such ground-breaking work in developing something fun that it made sense for Blizzard to acquire Condor, rename it Blizzard North, and start pouring in the money and staff the game really deserved/


Sounds much more like the smaller Condor team, led by Brevik and the Schaefer brothers, is responsible for designing a game that was fun and just needed more funds and manpower to get made as they imagined...

That doesn't sound like it was Blizzard and their "genius" now does it?
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Brevik stood on the shoulders of giants, that's how. Blizzard is still here... Mike, Chris, Rob, Frank... they have a lot of really talented, really intelligent people that have come through Blizzard or are still with them in some capacity. The big guy of Arena-Net and Guild Wars was initially with Blizzard I think. Mike O'Brien?

Anyways, my point is this: Brevik was like someone who had a good idea initially, like a stoner idea, and he started to put it to paper. I would guess though, that Blizzard was the real genius behind the game itself and its superior execution. Just my hunch considering he went on to release two flops in a row on his own.


And yet that same "genius" that is still there, as you claim, put out the mess that is Diablo 3 (and if anyone tries to lay the blame for that on Jay, I hope they realize the contradiction they are supporting). The game that consistently claimed to be all about the loot hunt, all about interesting affixes and gear choices, yet launches with a game design that on one side didn't live up to its own set of expectations as voiced by the developers and on the other side undermined its own design via the inclusion of a real money market.

The same "genius" that took nearly a year to admit that there are serious issues with the design of loot and itemization in this game, and are taking another year after admitting that to implement it into the game.

Outside of the satisfying feel of combat, Diablo 3 just isn't a good ARPG - it's currently outclassed in skill design, stat design, re-playability, and "stuff to do" design by other games from much smaller studios...studios that also make the Blizzard development team look like they are standing still.

Also, something I missed the first time this thread was being fed by the Blizzard shills:

The Condor team had no hope of making the game they aspired to build, but they did such ground-breaking work in developing something fun that it made sense for Blizzard to acquire Condor, rename it Blizzard North, and start pouring in the money and staff the game really deserved/


Sounds much more like the smaller Condor team, led by Brevik and the Schaefer brothers, is responsible for designing a game that was fun and just needed more funds and manpower to get made as they imagined...

That doesn't sound like it was Blizzard and their "genius" now does it?


I think the success of Blizzard speaks for itself. I think the fact that they have their own convention that pulls international interest and attendees speaks for itself. I think them setting a new record every time they launch a game speaks for itself.

You can tin foil hat and blame it on the man or me being a shill or a sheep or w/e you like, but their quality speaks for itself. I must have missed the game that defeated D3 hands down. Are you referring to Path of Exile? Sorry, not my cup of tea. See how that works?
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I think the success of Blizzard speaks for itself. I think the fact that they have their own convention that pulls international interest and attendees speaks for itself. I think them setting a new record every time they launch a game speaks for itself.

You can tin foil hat and blame it on the man or me being a shill or a sheep or w/e you like, but their quality speaks for itself. I must have missed the game that defeated D3 hands down. Are you referring to Path of Exile? Sorry, not my cup of tea. See how that works?


Obviously Blizzard's reputation isn't some sort of fairy tale - it's based on quality work. The catch is, much of what built their reputation is now in the past. That they sold over 10 million copies of D3 in just a couple months, which is an incredibly respectable number in terms of sales, yet didn't retain even half that in a franchise that's famous for people playing it long term...speaks for itself.

They also set no records when Mists of Pandaria launched, and they've seen subscriptions dropping there at an alarming rate. Furthermore, the console edition of this game sold poorly.

That said, sales figures aren't the only thing to consider, and you're doing yourself a disservice if you are using something so binary to judge something that's a bit more complex. Yes, Diablo 3 sold very, very well - Blizzard games tend to do that because of the reputation they earned from previous work. Yes, the feel of combat is well done, possibly the tightest and overall most appealing in the genre right now.

Yet there's more to ARPGs than just how good the combat feels. There's the loot, both in terms of the feedback loop that comes from getting the right amount of good items at the right pace balanced against the content and its overall difficulty (great/godly stuff to quick is as bad as too slow), and the design of the loot itself when it comes to stats. Diablo 3 got these absolutely wrong at launch, and still hasn't corrected the second one. You needed Act II items from Inferno to really play in Act II...and the only place to get them was Act II...or the AH. That imbalance, perhaps more than anything else, helped push the use of the AH and especially the RMAH further and faster than was healthy for the game. Of course, us open beta testers couldn't actually provide real feedback - we could only play to level 13 and trust them when they said the game was loot focused.

Now, let's consider the loot. Specific stats are pretty much the end all be all when it comes to what you want, and it's almost the same across every class. Main stat, critical chance, critical damage, increased attack speed, fill out with survivability like all resist and vitality as needed. Weapon damage and sockets. Anything else? Pretty much junk. There's criminally few cases where additional stats or affixes really come into play, like the zerodogs build. Blizzard knows this - they had affixes and stats that were unique and central to specific builds in D2, and look to be bringing that back with the expansion. The question is then why aren't they here now? Someone goofed, that's why - the team brought out their vision of a Diablo game, and that vision turned out to be missing part of the picture. The best example of a game out right now that has this design implemented really well is Path of Exile - specific uniques, like Facebreaker (a level 16 item) are the capstones to high-end fairly tough to create builds that do some very interesting things - like one-shot enemies by punching them. Few are that extreme, but they absolutely change the way you can build your character, and in some cases builds don't work without them.

It's that kind of design that keeps loot in general interesting, and couple with the right pacing of loot acquisition is crucial to having a well designed loot system. Diablo 3 does not have this. Marvel Heroes is lacking as well in this department, but they do have more items that directly affect your character (unique items/cosmic items with special affixes, a good number of +skill affixes that provide additional flexibility with skill choices and/or augmenting sets of skills to really boost them), and gear isn't the end all be all of stats either. It makes a difference, but you're not a wet papercloth without it.

There's also the skill design. There's advantages and disadvantages to the system they've chosen. One of those advantages should be the ability to play how you want to play with a variety of skills that let you check out a variety of playstyles without having to devote a lot of time to testing and rerolling. The latter is what Path of Exile obviously does, and that is absolutely intentional - it's by gamers that want that design for gamers that want that design, and it also happens to be a design that supports the idea of re-playability. Diablo 3 gets more freedom, but trades some of the re-playability. Marvel Heroes goes off in a different direction - it's less about crazy different builds, and more about having each hero feel like their own thing. Ideally they are looking for 2-3 identifying builds that are genuinely fun to play(with some variation), and given that they're already at like two dozen heroes that's a good goal for that type of game.

Now, back to Diablo 3. The issue with their current design is that it revolves around all the skills and all the runes really pulling their weight as part of different builds...and that's just not the case. There are some skills and runes that are almost never used, and some that are used almost all the time. They sold the switch to the non-skill tree based system on the idea that there would be a LOT of potential build combinations per class...and have yet to fully deliver.

Still, there's nothing inherently wrong with the overall scheme of their design, but it doesn't help support another hallmark of the genre...that of re-playability, as I sort of touched on above. That means the game has to rely on other parts of the design to pull the weight that the creating builds/re-rolling once shouldered. The loot design has to be compelling enough, and the "stuff to do" category has to be compelling enough. The loot design is getting there with some of the changes since launch, and Loot 2.0 takes a big step forward there, though honestly the loot design in a loot hunt game should have never been an issue. Launching the game with not only a gold auction house, but a real money auction house that allowed you to skip playing the game to gain wealth and items (having just the GAH, in my opinion, would not have been nearly as big an issue)? That takes any amount possibility of the loot hunt being compelling enough and turns it upside down, throws it in a trash bin, and goes through its pockets for loose change.

With such a non-compelling loot system in place, Blizzard decides that the sum total of the stuff to do at launch is...*drum roll*...the loot hunt. Of course, they eventually add in an alternate leveling system that is finally getting much needed love with Paragon 2.0, and they did get around to adding Ubers (a similar feature existed in D2...so again, why wasn't it in at launch?), and they're finally talking about ladder type stuff along with the random features of the nephalem trials and loot runs...so the game is going to get compelling stuff in the "stuff to do" category...

Months after two games from much smaller studios have either had stuff in that category since launch or have added it within their first year. MH has had time to have group PvP, pull it from live to restructure it, and is soon adding back in a team match arena - complete with objectives. Oh, and they've gone the route of separating PvP from PvE in terms of how skills and such are handled, so no worries about one getting nerfed for the other. PoE has also had PvP for quite some time now. MH has added a sorta group map area that spans all areas, 5 at a time, where groups of bosses spawn along with a lot of baddies, and you can run around fighting them at your leisure when you're not running the new wave based X-men Mansion defense mode, running terminals at four different tiers (easy, hard, and group difficulties as well) that consist of fighting through small chunks pulled from the story line, or (finally) going through the increased difficulty versions of the storyline. Oh, they also have zones in Asgard on the way as continuation of the main story and their version of raids, which will essentially be the ARPG version of Onyxia...without all the whelps (I hope).

Path of Exile has been running leagues and races since open beta started, providing plenty of stuff to do ranging from an hour long solo HC race to group races of similar length, to special leagues that last four months that come with their own set of challenges to complete (do them all, you get a free t-shirt from Grinding Gear Games - they are not easy to complete by any stretch of the imagination). The more points you earn from these different races the more stuff you earn throughout the season, including different season specific uniques. This is on top of just leveling different characters and trying out different builds, if that's your thing.

Yeah...compare that to D3...which was pretty much Act 3 Alk runs till they added Ubers, then those two till they changed the density...where you're still just killing monsters to gain paragon levels and hope for loot and not much else. In the "stuff to do" category, Diablo 3 should frankly feel embarrassed.

Quite frankly, I think too many people keep giving Blizzard too much benefit of the doubt. Polygon, the review site, giving them a 10/10 even while mentioning the server issues, and say they're giving Blizz a pass because they are Blizz. Yeah, they've earned the right to hold their own convention, and they've broken sales records in the past, and have put out quality work, and even their current work still has a certain amount of polish to it...

But at what point does past work mean current work is better? Answer - it doesn't. Nor do sales figures. Take those out of the equation, and Diablo 3 looks like a poor mans RPG with design decisions that undercut other core mechanics, and simply not as much stuff to do as other titles within the same genre.

Given Blizzard's earned reputation, I shouldn't be content to say "Well they are Blizzard, and they sold more, and all that stuff speaks for itself." I should be asking what the hell happened? They can do better - they HAVE done better. If their "genius" is still there at Blizzard, it sure wasn't on display when they launched Diablo 3.
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For haters don't trust review sites that gave diablo 3 favorable reviews. lmao

Oh, and the success of the game is not based on sales.. WTF haha

really diablo 3 console did not sell well? http://www.vgchartz.com/article/251309/weekly-sales-analysis-7-september-total-war-rome-ii-diablo-iii/

it even outsold madden nfl hahaha
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