Diablo® III

New pro game mode ?

Blizzard Employee
Posts: 2,279
Just dropping in to thank everyone for all of the feedback so far. It's been interesting to read all of your thoughts on ladders, and what you'd like to get out of them. Please, keep sharing your ideas!
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Posts: 17,115
07/31/2013 04:00 PMPosted by Grimiku
Just dropping in to thank everyone for all of the feedback so far. It's been interesting to read all of your thoughts on ladders, and what you'd like to get out of them. Please, keep sharing your ideas!


A ladder where "Ladder" and "NL" can coexist is the way to go. Most people haven't thought it through. Diablo 3 is about accumulating wealth at a slow pace whereas in Diablo 2, you could get godly items on Day 2 (Shako, HoZ, etc).
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Not one to respond often I felt I would go head and chime in.

1. Yes I think they should have AH system like Hardcore does.

2. Nah not really I would rather have my time spent killing mobs, AH if I really need it.

3. Don't know maybe ever 6 months, or 3. Either or.

4. I think 5 more slots, one for each class would be fun. I would like to keep my Hardcore characters separate and my mains separate.

5. No.
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- Would you like access to a separate auction house?

Make a league style ladder system, for example silver ladder players(access to a separate auction house, trade chat/trading allowed), gold ladder players(no auction house, trade chat/trading allowed), platinum ladder players(self-found only, no auction house and trading), diamond ladder(self-found hardcore)

- Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?

see above

- How long would you like the resets to be?

6 months at the very least

- How many character slots should we enable?

10

- Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?

Yes.

Also could you maybe look into considering using character achievements in a ladder system.

+1
Mertz has it exactly right; although, I would like to add that I don't think there needs to be any manipulation of the drop rates, at least not in the hardcore ladder. Pushing your limits with suspect blues and rares is loads of fun, especially if everybody else is in the same boat.

*Edit: Also, I'd like to see the hardcore ladder be MP10 only. There's really no danger in MP0 until Act 3 Inferno, even in sub par gear.
Edited by Bombadillo#1968 on 7/31/2013 4:29 PM PDT
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No Auction house.

Yes.

6 Months.

10.

Yes.

I will start playing immediately the second this ladder is launched
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Pro Mode: Start Hardcore Toon, set game to mp10 right off the bat, and don't use AH.
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I’m glad you guys are taking player feedback on implementing a ladder system; however it kind of scares me that you ask these questions before distinguishing a clear goal as to what you want it to accomplish or asking what we want a ladder to accomplish. As is, the feedback you get is kind of trivial.

Reason for a ladder?
  • Reset of economy
  • Competition between players
  • ?

  • Personally what I would like from a ladder is a sort of competition among players. If it is just to reset the economy then you are just duplicating instances of SC/HC and splitting the player base for no reason.

    Note: My answers to your questions are based on if the ladder is strictly for competition

    Should we have a separate AH?
    Having an AH prevents normal progression. If I can use real money and buy the better gear to hasten my progression then I can essentially skip over players that have invested time actually playing the game. The AH would essentially be like an athlete using steroids to be better than other athletes that train regularly.

    I’d also like to note that if you have an AH in ladder, then bots will participate. This will be demoralizing to those that devote there actual time to compete and make the competition as a whole pointless.

    Should we allow in game trading?
    Allowing players to trade/drop gold or items will also deter normal progression. Bots will still be present in ladder and third party sites will still sell to those willing to pay. I want to say yes, b/c we should be able to but unfortunately it will destroy the sense of competition.

    I would also like to note, if you are going to allow trading, then you might as well have the AH and get your cut.

    How often should the ladder reset?
    This I think will need to be modified based on how your first season goes. If you make it too long, then you have a bunch of people at paragon 100. If you make it too short then players will have to play low level content over and over and never reach a point that they feel strong.

    Start at 4 months and go from there.

    How many character slots should be allowed?
    If you have one and a player resents there choice mid season (ex: patch changes) it will be very discouraging to delete there character and lose all progression. Although the point is to try to focus on one character and make it as far as possible.

    I would say stick with one character, but you may want to think about how patches will affect ladder.

    Should these take up existing Slots?
    If you are going to transfer characters from ladder to SC/HC then yes they should. If not, then I would say they should have there own slot.

    This presents some other questions that I think should be discussed

    Other very important questions to be asking
  • Does your character move to SC/HC after ladder reset?
  • Does gear/inventory transfer with character after ladder reset?
  • Does stash transfer with character, if so what if stash space in SC/HC is full, what happens to those items after ladder reset?
  • Does gold transfer to SC/HC after ladder reset?
  • How do we measure progression in ladder? (First to Paragon 100?)
  • What rewards (if any) to players receive from participating in ladder?

  • The Elephant in the room (so called “no lifers” and the “working stiff”) and how it relates to participation, rewards, and progression in ladder.
    We all have different schedules and responsibilities. Personally I work a good amount but have a couple hours of free time every couple days that I can invest into games. I don’t have unreal expectations and realize that if I would compete in such a league that I am not going to be in the top 100. I still want to participate but why should I devote my time to this league? The world is based on incentive, without it no one would do much. We need motivation to get people excited about competing and reward players for participating while not forcing players into ladder strictly because that’s how you get the best gear (how D2 had specific items in ladder).

    Why do we compete in sports? For the trophy. While that trophy is not practical, everyone wants it. It is a symbol of achievement. That is how we reward players for there achievements in ladder. Aesthetic trophies such as exclusive portraits, banners, dyes, character customization (hair styles, hair color, faces, body frames, follower skins, pet skins, player skins, glowing eyes, etc...) give players a way to visually show off there accomplishments/trophies while not affecting game play.

    We’ve covered how to motivate participation based on rewards. Now let’s talk about the progression to achieve those rewards. How do we measure progression in ladder? Do we stick with the old ways and keep it directly associated with level (paragon)? Grinding paragon levels is hardly a competition and can just be downright boring especially with the current, or lack of, end game content. We need something more. We need something that stimulates players, which makes them feel like they achieved something. Something more than, these are the best grinders in the world.

    Let’s call them goals for the sake of the explanation. With each ladder reset we will have a list of goals. Each reset these will change to keep each season unique in its own way. Some examples could be

    *Instead of giving feedback whether a specific goals is good or bad, lets instead limit feedback to whether the concept of goals as a whole are good or bad
  • Kill 500 Treasure Goblins in Inferno
  • Kill 1k Elites
  • Craft a Marquise Gems
  • Defeat the Butcher in Inferno on MP5 in less than a minute solo
  • Defeat Diablo in Inferno on MP10 group/solo
  • Reach Paragon level 50
  • Achieve over 2 million critical damage on one hit
  • Kill 100 enemies in one fight (The UI that pops up when you kill a group of enemies)
  • Defeat Belial without using a potion the entire fight
  • Identify 100 Legendaries
  • Beat Act 1 in 30 minutes in Inferno on MP2
  • Beat Inferno difficulty using only white items
  • Defeat Azmodan in Inferno with only blue items
  • Equip all Legendaries
  • Complete a full Set of items
  • Kill 500 skeletons in Inferno MP5 with a two handed weapon

  • These could also be categorized so that you do not achieve a goal (and reward) until all sub goals have been accomplished

    Goal – Treasure Hunter
  • Kill 500 Treasure Goblins
  • Find 1k (specific) Gems
  • Identify 100 Legendaries

  • When you accomplish a goal you receive a reward. The more difficult the goal, the better the reward. At the end of the season whoever has accomplished all the goals first or completed the most goals are ranked by amount completed or succession of completion.
    OR
    You still have progression based on leveling and goals are a side dish to keep players interest and allow lesser players to still receive some rewards.

    Lastly let’s discuss top players. These players should have a visual representation of rank in game, probably somewhere in there portrait. At the end of the season, top players should receive the best aesthetic trophies (ex. accomplish a lesser goal may give you a new portrait, but being a top player would give you glowing eyes for the DH). Also when the new season starts there should still be a way to show what rank top players were from the previous season (as well as aesthetic trophies). This adds a layer of fame to the game.

    TLDR Unfortunately it’s hard to convey complex ideas with only a few words so for all those that actual read my wall of text, thanks for your attention and feel free to provide feedback.

    For blues and devs…I hope you at least consider some of the other important questions about ladder that weren’t present in your original response and distinguish a goal for ladder before pursuing it further whether it be from your design or player feedback .
    Reply Quote
    We're investigating the possibility of adding a ladder-like system to Diablo III. Nothing is concrete yet, but we'd love to hear from you about what you'd like to see in this kind of feature.

    - Would you like access to a separate auction house?

    - Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?

    - How long would you like the resets to be?

    - How many character slots should we enable?

    - Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?


    Please yes !

    No AH for the ladder season would be awsome.
    Edited by Max#1372 on 7/31/2013 4:51 PM PDT
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    07/31/2013 04:06 PMPosted by DoomBringer
    A ladder where "Ladder" and "NL" can coexist is the way to go. Most people haven't thought it through. Diablo 3 is about accumulating wealth at a slow pace whereas in Diablo 2, you could get godly items on Day 2 (Shako, HoZ, etc).


    thats called "end of ladder season" where ladders are closed and population moved to nonladder mode.

    one improvement could be made in a way chars "before/after" ladder season are handled:
    -main account, all chars are there, all wealth, auction houses, achievements, etc
    -now each player can either play casual nonladder mode games, like it is now
    or choose to enter timed game mode (ladder season, or tournament, or event race)
    -when player joins timed mode, he can choose either use one of existing chars
    or start a brand new one - the only difference would be in how the end of season is handled, start of season is same for everyone (start from zero everything)

    BUT once the ladder season is over, the ladder stats, items, kills, etc are merged to previous "before ladder" char's stats. this way no progression is lost

    or another way would be:
    each "end of ladder season" would be handled like an achievement and added to existing chars achievement stats. so participating in ladder would have some rewards and achievement bonuses, both char only and account wide.

    each ladder season might be even regarded like another "paragon-like level tree"
    so you would have
    -normal levels: 60
    -paragon levels: +100 (adds stats and gf/mf bonuses)
    -ladder season 1 levels: +100 (adds different bonuses and stats)
    think of ladder seasons as a special events/quests where you can earn more rewards and achievements
    these could be different for every new season (e.g. bonus to crit damage +1 for each level up to +100cd at full season levelup, or reaching season level 100 would give +10% cd achievement account wide bonus)
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    Try to look through previous posts and upvote the ones you approve of. Blizz will likely not be looking at every post. Although they could do a survey and have us vote on things that we would prefer.
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    100 Human Paladin
    17315
    Posts: 5
    - Would you like access to a separate auction house? In different modes yes and no.

    - Would you like to include player trading via the trade window? In different modes yes and no.

    - How long would you like the resets to be? Overlapping resets to various difficulties/combinations

    - How many character slots should we enable? 10

    - Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have? No

    My feedback is just have different types of ladder modes for different kinds of people. Normal Ladder with Auction House/trading Normal Ladder without Auction House, Normal Ladder with Player Trading only Normal Ladder with no AH or trading etc.

    I personally would play on a Hardcore ladder with no auction house or trading so that your upgrades are based on your own crafting or drops and where skill and luck is more of a factor for reaching the top. I think this play mode would be very popular especially with a small reward at the end for top players to compete over such as BoA titles, BoA cosmetic gear etc.
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    I've been playing this franchise of games since Diablo 1 came out. I also played Diablo 2 multiple times during different ladder seasons. I NEVER cared for the ladder seasons, ever. To me it was pointless and utter waste of time. I would not like to see this on Diablo 3. So my answer for all the questions is a solid no.
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    07/30/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Grimiku
    - Would you like access to a separate auction house?
    No. Ladders should be AH-free; the point is to see what you can do with in-game resources.

    07/30/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Grimiku
    - Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?
    Sure, I guess, although I don't know why another player would want to do that for you in a competitive ladder situation.

    07/30/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Grimiku
    - How long would you like the resets to be?
    Run ladder events with different durations: everything from 3 hours (sprint ladders), to 3 days (week-end ladders), to 3 weeks (monthly ladders), to 3 months (marathon ladders). I'd say a few months should be the maximum.

    07/30/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Grimiku
    - How many character slots should we enable?
    One per player per ladder, and they should be separate, with separate stash and gold, for the duration of the ladder.

    07/30/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Grimiku
    - Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?
    Not until the ladder is complete: at that point, the character gets added to the player's "main" roster, along with any stashed items and gold. You should also raise the character cap (more than ten), and add more stash tabs.
    Edited by Waitubold#1127 on 7/31/2013 5:46 PM PDT
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    - Would you like access to a separate auction house?
    yes please

    - Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?
    i don't mind

    - How long would you like the resets to be?
    1 month maybe 2 months

    - How many character slots should we enable?
    5 i think one for each class but doesn't really matter two me

    - Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?
    no i don't think it should
    Reply Quote
    - Would you like access to a separate auction house?
    - Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?
    - How long would you like the resets to be?
    - How many character slots should we enable?
    - Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?


    Ladder modes imply a competitive mode of play.
    As such, I'd be very cautious to minimize all forms of 'pay-to-win' and 'flip-to-win'.

    - No AH would be ideal. However, Blizzard is a business and needs to make money. If this is an option that I'd highly encourage making a purchase BoA the gear to prevent 'flip-to-win' gameplay.

    - Remove player trading in game entirely. This serves as a balance and prevents abuse of simply gifting the best items to one person in order to top the ranks. It also removes the threats of botting and duping on the mode.

    - I have no real input on the length of the ladder. My gut instinct tells me that a short ladder is ideal if the expectation is that everyone will stick to only one character. You probably don't want to play just one alt for an entire year to remain competitive. As such, a shortened time frame like 3 or 6 months might be ideal.

    - 2 slots seem ideal if you intend this to be a focused competition. The reason is that you might find great gear and decide to switch over to a new primary class because of it. The more the slots the better, but I think 2 should be the minimum.

    - I'd hate to see it take up current slots. Right now we have enough for 1 of each class to player Softcore and Hardcore. It would suck for that very small percentage of players with 10 alts to have to delete a couple characters to play in the ladder.
    Reply Quote
    Would you like access to a separate auction house?

    Ladder characters should be treated as a separate game mode with separate economies. This means there would be four game modes. Ladder (Softcore & Hardcore) and Non-ladder (Softcore & Hardcore).

    Would you like to include player trading via the trade window?

    No reason to disable it.

    How long would you like the resets to be?

    Ideally as often as warranted, but that's obviously a moving target.

    How many character slots should we enable?

    "X" amount of slots where X represents double the number of character classes available after D3X1. This would be in addition to the existing 10 character slots currently available in D3 "vanilla" which should, in theory, also be bumped up to X slots available. Some thought will have to be given to how ladder transitions would pan out when ladder characters are moved to the non-ladder environment. (I don't remember how this was handled in D2 as I never had more than 4 or 5 characters).

    Should the characters take up existing slots you currently have?

    Short answer: No.

    Long answer: No, some of us have all 10 character slots filled and asking us to delete some of them to make room for ladder characters would be very unfun.
    Edited by Nevik#1431 on 7/31/2013 6:35 PM PDT
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    NO AUCTION HOUSE

    worst thing to happen to diablo series
    took the fun out of finding items, you just pay your way to victory. disgraceful


    You do realize that it was "pay to win" in Diablo II as well right? 3rd party sites were used back then to facilitate transactions putting those involved at risk of potential identity theft and fraud.
    Reply Quote
    First I just want to say a big solid to Blizz...I've noticed a lot more conversation between the player base and the Dev team. That's awesome and I hope it continues. Now onto the topic at hand!

    I think if there's an AH there should be some kind of restriction to prevent flipping. If people can just flip to make xx amount of gold, then they get higher gear levels then the people who don't. Perhaps put a daily limit on purchases?

    I also think multiple ladders is ideal. Once it's implemented into the game, there's no reason not to have multiple leagues running; have 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, hell you could even do 1 day, 6 hours, 4 hours, 1 hour speed runs, etc. The more variety the better, I'm pretty sure a 2 hour ladder would be hilariously fun. A sort of every second counts type thing. Obviously you'll never hit end game, but so what? Most people are sick of end game any ways.

    I think people just want something new to do. I started playing self found hardcore and I loved the beginning; having to repurchase your stash space, level your blacksmith and jeweler, pick up every piece of gold etc.

    Also, I know of a lot of people who have completely moved to the other realms just because they wanted that fresh start feel...It's exciting taking 17k to the AH and trying to find an upgrade...Much more fun than just snap buying the biggest upgrade you can.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in that aspect either.

    Either way, as long as ladder's DO come into play, I'm happy with it.
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    The greatest thing I loved about ladder in D2 was two things combined. Frequent ladder resets + exclusive ladder items. It gave a sense of hightened excitement when hunting for items because you know that because you put the time in to start fresh from the ground up, there's a chance of getting a sweet reward.

    If ladder was a simple player ranking board, probably with some kind of reward for the top 100 players I wouldn't even bother because I know I don't have the spare time to get ranked.
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