Diablo® III

Cloud of Bats Damage

Hello,

was doing tests with Cloud of Bats rune and there are some things i don't understand:

Test 1:
hit range 410-410
aps 1.4

At max a normal tick is 1978 damage. Based on the tooltip (500% weapon damage) the tick should do 410 * 5 = 2050 damage.

Test 2:

hit range 410-410
aps 1.48
Tick Damage: 1993

Test 3:

hit range 410-410
aps 1.50
Tick Damage: 1984

Test 4:

hit range 410-410
aps 1.58
Tick Damage: 1998

Most valuable information i could find about cloud of bats is this post http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568960808?page=6#118
But why does aps affect tick damage and why is the damage 482%-487% and not 500% ?
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Strange results indeed. The APS should not affect the tick damage that you see. They just tick faster.

However, your damage range, 410-410, you should divide by 2. CoB tick is calculated off half your weapon damage, because 1 cast = 2 ticks.

Make sure your testing gear do not have hidden +average damage. This stat can be observed when you list the item on AH and sort by Average Damage. Don't use accessories with +Max damage either. Only use +Min damage to bring the expected damage to a single flat number. Also, make sure you don't have SH, GF or any other buff - sometimes when testing, health globes appear.

I don't get 1000% either, I get something like 9.96 or 9.98, which I brush aside as rounding error. If the base number has been rounded off, multiples of that number will have a wider variance.

With each of your different gear set up, you can try:
1) Record down Melee damage. Divide by 2
2) Max channel CoB.

See the Max non-crit CoB damage divided by half of the non-crit Melee damage. It should be close to 10, but I never get exactly 10. Also, if you are able to view frame by frame, you can see the damage values rise step by step every second, until max channel (5x, 6x, 7x, 8x, 9x, 10x).

Edit: I don't have the ability to view frame by frame, but from the fast flashing numbers that I see, I think it should be 5x, 5.5x, 6x, 6.5x, 7x, 7.5x, 8x, 8.5x, 9x, 9.5x, 10x. They increase every half a sec.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/14/2013 6:40 AM PDT
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Everything is correct at 1.0 aps and it's just way tooo much for a rounding error. Try and find a way to round this from 409.76-409.76 hit damage.
I have no (hidden) buffs or anything and i'm always testing A1Q1. I'm always recording at 60 fps.
The increase is every tick and depends on the number of ticks, that's why it's hard to say by how much per second.
And all this doesn't explain why IAS can change the tick damage. :(
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btw, r u using any addon for this?, or just r to ecord and watch?
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And all this doesn't explain why IAS can change the tick damage. :(


It shouldn't. Something else must have changed, like maybe a weapon, or Intel (which affects damage). When you change some gears to adjust the IAS, the Intel impacts your base damage too, that's why I told you to do a Melee hit then max channel CoB. Follow that procedure and your results should be more consistent.
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The only difference is a neck with 7% ias and no other stats, nothing else.
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Your 4 tests were APS = 1.40, 1.48, 1.50, 1.58.
You only have 1 piece of 7% IAS.

How is that possible?

If I use the amulet on a base 1.4 weapon, I get APS = 1.4 x 1.07 = 1.50.

Anyway, I'm sidetracking.

Are you able to upload any video? That might help, more heads can look into your numbers and configuration, and always use a few Melee attacks to set the "baseline" calculations.
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Sry , there are ofc more items with ias but only ias and no other dmg increasing stats.
I'll make a video and upload it
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Hmm - ill stick this in a spread sheet later - I have wondered if for some skills blizzard reduce the damage per tick to account for the small attack speed boost you can get due to the aps break points in many channelling skills for all classes.

I know this doesn't apply to all skills, but may apply to some. I think I have some fixed damage range gear to try this out later as well.
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Quality is crap but should work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHDaEhuUfDg
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Excellent video, the numbers were clear.

To be honest, I do not know why you had varying results. You may be on to something that can challenge Nubtro's findings.

There is also something strange about your 3rd set up, where 1.498 APS is lower DPS than 1.484 APS. According to Nubtro's table, it belongs to the same APS bracket 1.42858 - 1.50000 (you need 1.50001 APS to push to the next bracket). You should be getting the same eDPS, but instead you got lower eDPS at 1.5 APS.

If the damage steadily goes up with APS, at least it could lead to some expectation, but now your 3rd data point is contrary to that hypothesis.

The crit and non-crit multipliers were all very close, but I think we were all expecting the multipliers to be exactly the same. Let me check using my 1H spear with some IAS stuff.
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Thanks for the video sssc, very clear numbers.

Very strange, no idea why this would happen, all I can think of is some kind of rounding error when aps is greater than 1.0. Did you say the numbers matched exactly when you had aps of 1.0?

Nubrtro's testing doesn't really shed any light on this, regardless of what aps breakpoint you are at, the damage per tick should always be 410*5 = 2050 like you stated in the original post.
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I'm back with my test results:
Video - http://youtu.be/6UISD9Qzbao

Test results vary slightly too, but my results were the opposite of yours. As my APS went up, my damage came down consistently. Overall, the data variance was still tightly packed and satisfactory.

Baseline APS (using 2x 9%IAS gear on a Spear) = 1.416 APS

Items used to push up APS were:
1) rare Dex ring with 9% IAS (put on empty ring slot)
2) Dex Inna's pants with 9% IAS (put on empty pants slot)
(both of them have no impact on damage per hit)

Test data:
@1.416 APS ---------- Non-Crit ------------- Crit
Melee ------------------- 1034 ----------------- 2772
max CoB --------------- 5148 ---------------- 13797
Multiplier ========= 9.96 ------------------ 9.95

@1.524 APS ---------- Non-Crit ------------- Crit
Melee ------------------- 1034 ----------------- 2772
max CoB --------------- 5137 ---------------- 13766
Multiplier ========= 9.94 ------------------ 9.93

@1.632 APS ---------- Non-Crit ------------- Crit
Melee ------------------- 1034 ----------------- 2772
max CoB --------------- 5127 ---------------- 13740
Multiplier ========= 9.92 ------------------ 9.91

I'm quite comfortable with these results, although the quality of damage is going down, I am getting more ticks per second. The deviation is still acceptable to me.

Separately, there's something strange about the Magefist CoB multiplier in Topic (3) of my CoB guide,
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377379828
I was expecting 20% increase in accordance with the tooltip but I only achieved 17.4% increase in damage. I wonder if it has anything to do with the mob or item level.

If a low level item gets a discount in effectiveness, then my Spear baseline damage was already discounted, and therefore consistent with all the tests, as the IAS modifiers were all high level items.

Too much speculation, let's just stick with the facts here - CoB multipliers from 9.91 to 9.96 = acceptable test results.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/14/2013 2:49 PM PDT
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My test 1 has 14 ticks from start to max damage. 100% increase / 14 = 7.143% per tick. 1025 damage * 7.143% = 73.21575 damage. The first tick doesn't increase the damage so it's 13 * 73 = 949. Every 4? tick is 74 damage (in my test 1->2, 5->6, 10 ->11, 13->14). 949 + 4 + 1025 = 1978
Same would work for the other tests. Dunno but i guess this theory is just bullcrap.
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Nope, and I don't even know what you're trying to calculate here.

The ramp up, according to the tooltip, is every second flat. Every second adds 20% of the base damage to the channel until max. The channel time to max damage is always 5 secs, how many ticks you get within that time period will depend on your APS, in relation with the APS brackets tabulated by Nubtro.

Even if your APS is very fast and you get 3-5 ticks every second, you still need to wait for the next second to ramp up the damage further.

What I cannot confirm (because I cannot do frame by frame analysis), is whether there are 5-step increments (20% added per sec), or 10-step increments (10% added every half-sec). Things are happening so fast I just can't tell. If the tooltip is correct, there are just 5-steps of increments.
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This is how it looks if you watch every frame:

tick - frame - seconds - damage - increase
1 - 1 - 0.000s - 1025 damage
2 - 22 - 0.350s - 1099 damage - +74
3 - 43 - 0.700s - 1172 damage - +73
4 - 64 - 1.050s - 1245 damage - +73
5 - 85 - 1.400s - 1318 damage - +73
6 - 106 - 1.750s - 1392 damage - +74
7 - 127 - 2.100s - 1465 damage - +73
8 - 148 - 2.450s - 1538 damage - +73
9 - 169 - 2.800s - 1611 damage - +73
10 - 190 - 3.150s - 1685 damage - +74
11 - 211 - 3.500s - 1758 damage - +73
12 - 232 - 3.850s - 1831 damage - +73
13 - 253 - 4.200s - 1904 damage - +73
14 - 274 - 4.550s - 1978 damage - +74
-------------------------------------------------
Next increment should be on frame 295, still within 5 sec but dunno why it's a normal tick. Maybe the 10 frames between clicking the button and the first tick are also in this calculation. Then it's frame 305 for tick 15 and this could be the reason why 1 tick is missing. (1978 + 73 = 2051). What i was calculating is, 100% damage increase / ticks possible in 300 frames. That's the % damage increase for every tick. First tick doesn't increase the damage so we are missing 1 tick / 1 increase.
Your 5-step / 10-step increment is confusing me.

edit fixed some stuff
Edited by sssc#2901 on 8/15/2013 2:38 AM PDT
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08/15/2013 02:33 AMPosted by sssc
Your 5-step / 10-step increment is confusing me.


The old understanding was that we get 5 increments over 5 secs, at 1 sec interval.

Your test shows that you get 14 increments over 5 secs, which is in line with your APS of 1.4 getting 2.86 ticks per sec = 14 ticks in 5 secs.

Are you able to view frame by frame for your 1.58 APS portion?
Say, 3.33 ticks/sec = 16.65 ticks over 5 secs.
If your test is consistent, you should see 16 damage increments over 5 secs.

If you can prove this, then for CoB, APS does not ramp up damage faster, but it divides the increments equally over the 5 sec period, depending on the total number of ticks expected within that 5 secs.

Edit: Also, if you manage to prove the number of increments co-relation with APS, divided equally over 5 secs, then that will help to explain the rounding-off error for each increment, leading to the overall variance of the CoB multiplier at max channel.

off-topic question, can windows media player or VLC media player view frame by frame? meaning, can I click a button and the video is on "pause" mode, and then keep clicking another button to view 1 frame by 1 frame?
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/15/2013 2:56 AM PDT
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tick - frame - seconds - damage - increase
1 - 1 - 0.000s - 1025 -
2 - 19 - 0.300s - 1090 - +65
3 - 37 - 0.600s - 1155 - +65
4 - 55 - 0.900s - 1220 - +65
5 - 73 - 1.200s - 1285 - +65
6 - 91 - 1.500s - 1349 - +64
7 - 109 - 1.800s - 1414 - +65
8 - 127 - 2.100s - 1479 - +65
9 - 145 - 2.400s - 1544 - +65
10 - 163 - 2.700s - 1609 - +65
11 - 181 - 3.000s - 1674 - +65
12 - 199 - 3.300s - 1738 - +64
13 - 217 - 3.600s - 1803 - +65
14 - 235 - 3.900s - 1868 - +65
15 - 253 - 4.200s - 1933 - +65
16 - 271 - 4.500s - 1998 - +65
------
17 - 289 - 4.800s - 1998 damage <- no clue why this tick doesn't increase damage

100% / 16 = 6.25%

1025 * 6.25% = 64.0625 damage increase per tick. I can't explain why it goes up by 65 every tick and not 64 and that's why i'm not sure about my theory.
Edited by sssc#2901 on 8/15/2013 3:21 AM PDT
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1025 * 6.25% = 64.0625 damage increase per tick. I can't explain why it's 64 and not 65 and that's why i'm not sure about my theory.


Look at it this way, your weapon is 410 damage per hit, or 205 per tick, Computer calculates that you get 16 ticks in 5 secs, and needs to add 500% to your base. That becomes 1025 / 16 = 64.06 damage increment per tick. That's perfectly in line with your test results.

The 17th tick doesn't increase in damage because you already enjoyed all 16 increments over that 5 secs. You're at max channel already.

Why does it add 64 sometimes and 65 at other times? I don't know. I'll put it off as rounding-off errors. As your damage shoots up with normal playing gear, all these +1 or -1 rounding-off will become very small numbers, and your multipliers for CoB will get closer to the expected value of 10x.

Edit: oh wait, I get what you mean now. For your tests, you were short-changed of 1 tick increment. A possible explanation is that the final increment will push you over the tooltip damage, so they cap you off at the nearest available tick without shooting through the roof. Just pure speculation. The way to prove this is should be to test on 1.0 APS exactly, then the final tick should come in without shooting through the ceiling.
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/15/2013 3:35 AM PDT
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I'm back with some good news and some hypothesis. To be clear, I cannot view frame by frame, when I click on "next frame" in windows media player, it sort of jumps 4 frames (15 clicks to the next second). So there will be some details that need other players to help.

Test video - http://youtu.be/pcl2VuYH-FI

Thorns = 1288 (ignore this number)
APS = 1.45

Melee damage = 1071 (non-crit), 2753 (crit).
Half weapon damage = 536 (non-crit), 1377 (crit)

*The game seems to round off numbers right from this base number calculation.

CoB damage = 2680 ................. 6889 (both are 5x the non-crit and crit values)
.........................2865 (+185) ...... no-crit
.........................3050 (+185) ...... 7839 (+475 +475)
.........................3235 (+185) ...... 8314 (+475)
.........................3420 (+185) ...... 8789 (+475)
.........................3605 (+185) ...... 9264 (+475)
.........................3790 (+185) ...... 9737 (+475)
.........................3974 (+184) ...... 10214 (+475)
.........................4159 (+185) ...... 10689 (+475)
.........................4344 (+185) ...... 11164 (+475)
.........................4529 (+185) ...... 11640 (+476)
.........................4714 (+185) ...... 12115 (+475)
.........................4899 (+185) ...... 12590 (+475)
.........................5084 (+185) ...... 13065 (+475)
.........................5268 (+184) ...... 13540 (+475)
CoB multiplier = 9.84 ................... 9.84

I compared my few tests with your previous tests as well, the game calculates the
Tick Incremental Damage = [ (Half Melee Damage x 5) / (APS x 10) ]
In this test, Increment = (5 x 536) / 14.5 = 184.83 damage increment per tick

Recall that (5 x 536) is also the very first tick damage, which is 500% damage, the game is trying to calculate the best value to allocate the steady increments in relation to our APS.

There is a "surplus" of 0.17 every time (+185 damage) is added, so for every few ticks, the game needs to net-off by (+184 damage) to get back to the actual intended value of 184.83.

The missing portion of the CoB multiplier comes from the way the Tick Incremental Damage is calculated. In my test, I only enjoyed 14 increments instead of 14.5 increments. The final 50% of the tick increment value fizzled off.

If my APS is 1.49, 90% of the final tick increment value will fizzle off.
If my APS is 1.41, 10% of the final tick increment value will fizzle off, getting closest to the 10x multiplier.

Now for the interesting hypothesis

Part 1:
I compared this test findings and calculations with your first test. You were at APS 1.40, and you were missing almost 100% of the final tick increment. This leads me to suspect that 1.20, 1.30, 1.40, 1.50, etc are all at the upper-end of the threshold (i.e. lose out on almost 1 whole tick increment). We need to cross that threshold 1.2001, 1.3001, 1.4001. 1.5001, to be closest to the 10x multiplier without further "wastage".

Part 2:
These are all testing with low damage. As our damage for usual gear goes into the millions, these errors should still put us close to the 10x multiplier.

Special Note:
This research is trying to detail how the Tick Incremental Damage is calculated and allocated. It does not contradict other CoB mechanics (as far as the current test results reveal).

Feel free to use this test method for various weapons and APS, and see if the expected proportion of the final tick increment value gets "fizzled".
Edited by PaulNg#6869 on 8/15/2013 1:22 PM PDT
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