Diablo® III

Having trouble understanding EHP/DPS

08/15/2013 01:34 PMPosted by Ragnar
Xenophis, though what you're saying might be coming from the right place, it's still coming from an inexperienced one.
That's silly. You should be judging what was said, not who said it.

What was originally "10 disc vs 200 stats for MP10" discussion turned into "YOU MUST HAVE MOAR DISC" argument. Did you and Kirus read the whole thread? Because we were talking about MP10, while neither one of you have an MP10 capable DH.

Also to your question above: I'm not nearly as tanky as Xenophis (by choice), and I have no problems with low disc and no prep.


You're ignorant, in more ways than none.
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Actually. Not quite. Since release of MP content, I've solely done all my testing and killing in MP10. While others farm lower MP for exp / legendaries, I actually didn't care about any of that. The only reason I log into Diablo is to get my character to a point where MP10 is a walk in the park and I can kill elites without batting an eyelash, and I'm getting to that point, after more than a year of doing that.

While people farmed, I tested.

I think it'll give people some perspective as to why I chose a tank route instead of a full attention dps route. I work at a car dealership where I am logged onto my laptop, calling clients, following up on leads, reserving test drives, driving a few hours to do car swaps, doing a delivery and making sure my clients are happy. I'm not the type of person that is able to have a regular Diablo experience, because I'm at work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Therefore, logging in at work allows me to flip AH (which is my most frequent activity) and on occasion, when I have some down time after I get a deal signed, or a car delivered, I start up an Act 3 MP10 game with my DH and have a blast. But I always have to keep one eye towards the front door to see my next potential sale walking through... I don't have the time or feel like putting in the energy to pay 100% attention to my screen everytime I play. I far from lack experience in the department of high MP gameplay as that's the ONLY gameplay I do.

On a side note, don't care what you call it, but after a few hundred hours of running the same maps, the same elites, etc, one can call themselves experienced. Are you saying you're incapable of mastering a skill after 800 hours (total time for me) of training? What does that say about one's personal character?
Edited by Xenophis#1434 on 8/15/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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Hi Xenophis

I guess I need to explain what I wrote

MP10 kiting? who said I'm doing that??
here watch the video
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9454575364#1
I only die when I lose control, either that is knockback, fear, vortex or waller.

with a RF build I can sit on 1 lay of plague or desecrator and take on 2-3 arcane beam passing over me at the same time without dropping my health below 70%.
Have you try mp10 with less than 150k eph? I don't gear for more because I don't need them.

When you use discipline you can do one of these
activate smoke
activate shadow power
activate vault
activate caltrops
activate mark for death
activate companion
activate punishment
So how many time can you cast each of these with 30 discipline??

All of these skill will increase you edps, and sometimes ehp or mobility depending on your build. Let's add a few tanking examples with our discipline attacks.

Smoke will allow you to deal 100% damage without repositioning for 1 second. SP will allow you to deal 100% damage without stopping for 3-5 seconds. Caltrops - Jagged Spike adds 45% weapon per second, if you stack 3 it will be more than 50% of your dps even if you ignore the fact that it does not scale with your aps. Mark will always add 12% to the target your are hitting if it is marked. Companion believe it or not also attacks a target dealing about 20% of your dps as it does not scale its damage with critical hits.

Now do you know that all of these attacks has another effect that you can get from your runes. Smoke can deal damage or restore hatred, SP can be combine with 35% damage reduction or 30% more movement speed. Caltrops slows enemies and helps you gather mobs and proc Cull the Weak. Mark can be used for aoe spread damage, or resource/life regeneration. Companion does similar things as Mark as long as it is active.

There is a lot more to discipline then what you have demonstrated on this thread.
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Do you not understand that I have PERMAGLOOM with my build? And not only that, I am able to spam caltrops CONSTANTLY AND have enough to gloom.

And did you really just try to educate ME about jagged spikes? Sorry, but I'm one of the pioneers of the jagged spike phenomenon back when DH tanking was unheard of pre-nerf.

Due to my infinite disc pool from regen with cluster grenades, which I'm sure you've never even touched once in your life (otherwise you'd understand what infinite disc means), I have permagloom + 225% per second running from 5 jagged spikes at ALL times against elites.

Oh and I might add, if I choose, I can spam torturous instead on ranged elites, and keep them permasnared which is always fun too. Key words in each of my statements though, is PERMA.

You should just do a quick look at my thread history. You're extremely uneducated on my understanding of the DH class.
Edited by Xenophis#1434 on 8/15/2013 1:55 PM PDT
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08/15/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Xenophis
Do you not understand that I have PERMAGLOOM with my build? And not only that, I am able to spam caltrops CONSTANTLY AND have enough to gloom.

so anyone of you so called "tanking dh" run your build with 30 discipline and without any one of these skills:
Grenades
Shuriken Cloud
Rapid Fire
Night Stalker

You think I don't know that you have prema-Gloom... Silly boy. ofc you have prema gloom you are running the spec to do so. If you did not have any one of these skills slotted in you can't. And you got 3 of them on profile. NS works well with high aps (2.01+) and high cc (50+) and you got both.

What was originally "10 disc vs 200 stats for MP10" discussion turned into "YOU MUST HAVE MOAR DISC" argument. Did you and Kirus read the whole thread? Because we were talking about MP10, while neither one of you have an MP10 capable DH.

10 disc >> 200 stat for MP10 is the point I'm trying to make.
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08/15/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Xenophis
You should just do a quick look at my thread history. You're extremely uneducated on my understanding of the DH class.

I would care less about who you are and what you think you know...

Why would I do that?

Will you do the same thing when you see another person posting on the forum?
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eh... why do we have so many monks on the demon hunters' forum.

so anyone of you so called "tanking dh" run your build with 30 discipline and without any one of these skills:
Grenades
Shuriken Cloud
Rapid Fire
Night Stalker


If you did you can now call me an idiot trying to play a demon hunter.

imo +10 discipline =
+30% ehp
+50% dps
+25% mobility

or be modest and go with
+15% ehp
+25% dps
+20% mobility


If you "enjoy" tanking then I guess you will not take my advice nor will you read what swsw is saying. Might as well try and learn how to use a sword or skorn and play you iron barrel of hit points in melee range. Oh, you can't... without a bow you can't use half of your skills trying to play a demon hunter.


I'm not going to call you an idiot, but I don't run with grenades or shuriken cloud and handle mp10 fine with no additional disc. Why do people think that's hard? I mean, I believe I am well geared, but not the best geared and I do what I think you are saying is really, really, hard to do.

As for the other guy, I hear what you are saying - once they fix rapid fire, I'm sure I'll have to change everything back up, but for right now, disc is not a problem.

Oh yeah, I don't know that I "enjoy" tanking. I had my DH at para 50something when I decided it was just terrible. Then they bugged snapshotting and I figured I would take him to 100 before they fixed it - still working on that. I will say I don't mind it at all. My favorite is going into mp10 public games and killing faster than most of the barbs I encounter...
Edited by Rimripper#1555 on 8/15/2013 2:03 PM PDT
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@Action: If you want to join the real discussion, you're more than welcome. If you want to resort to name calling for no reason, I'm afraid our convo's at the end.

@Kirus: watched your video (again I think). You actually do quite a lot of kiting, especially on the first pack (which should be pretty easy). You take 60+ secs on the fist pack, and die to the Tremor yellow after 50 seconds. That is NOT a demonstration of MP10 viability.
Also, I'd argue that your video is more of an argument for Legacy Nats, not extra 10 disc.
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Actually. Not quite. Since release of MP content, I've solely done all my testing and killing in MP10. While others farm lower MP for exp / legendaries, I actually didn't care about any of that. The only reason I log into Diablo is to get my character to a point where MP10 is a walk in the park and I can kill elites without batting an eyelash, and I'm getting to that point, after more than a year of doing that.

While people farmed, I tested.

I think it'll give people some perspective as to why I chose a tank route instead of a full attention dps route. I work at a car dealership where I am logged onto my laptop, calling clients, following up on leads, reserving test drives, driving a few hours to do car swaps, doing a delivery and making sure my clients are happy. I'm not the type of person that is able to have a regular Diablo experience, because I'm at work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Therefore, logging in at work allows me to flip AH (which is my most frequent activity) and on occasion, when I have some down time after I get a deal signed, or a car delivered, I start up an Act 3 MP10 game with my DH and have a blast. But I always have to keep one eye towards the front door to see my next potential sale walking through... I don't have the time or feel like putting in the energy to pay 100% attention to my screen everytime I play. I far from lack experience in the department of high MP gameplay as that's the ONLY gameplay I do.

On a side note, don't care what you call it, but after a few hundred hours of running the same maps, the same elites, etc, one can call themselves experienced. Are you saying you're incapable of mastering a skill after 800 hours (total time for me) of training? What does that say about one's personal character?


You don't have to give me the history of your playing. I mean no disrespect.

That's not what I meant when I called you inexperienced. Remember even in another thread I was saying how you should've tested Jagged Spikes more, before you tried to dismiss that crit damage isn't factored. It's like you didn't even want to consider the possibility that you tested incorrectly. I don't have to look at someone's profile and harp on their elite kills, or see that they're decked out in blue items and playing MP0. My replies never have anything to do with that.

You ragged on Kirus for giving his own experienced based numbers on what +10 discipline does for him. Yet you asked for strict math, but it's something you can't easily quantify or put to a number, I think it was clear when he put his own arbitrary percentages on what +10 Disc does for him.

Being a theorycrafter, I figured you'd understand what he was saying. The actual %'s of what he was saying there don't matter.

I'm not concerned about hours played, or elite kills in total.

btw, just so you know, I'm not questioning your MP10 capabilities, never have. I'm not questioning your discipline management, either. Cause I don't care. I don't care about anyone's MP10 capabilities, that !@#$ is just increased numbers in monster health and gear... the AI doesn't change. The only thing I'm concerned about is a player's ability to put out %weapon damage, the choices they actually make ingame, how fluid they can control their DH, and the understanding of indirect options the game has to offer.

When people think they know it all and that there is nothing new for them to discover, that looks like inexperience to me.

@Ragnar: I called you ignorant because your reply to me was hypocritical, you have no idea what MP a DH is capable of, you can only attempt to infer. Your reply undermined even the perspective Xenophis was coming from. MP10 is just increased numbers, no new AI changes. If someone is wearing low end blues, MP2 could just as easily become MP10 in practice, and MP10 could be like MP50.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 8/15/2013 2:31 PM PDT
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Hi Ragnar

Great to know. I made the video mainly after discussions that dh are squishy and will die in 1 shot with such a low ehp in MP10. I have and will continue to do say this, if you got enough discipline to spawn Gloom and continue a stream of attacks, you don't need to have the same ehp you see on a monk (I'm using monk as they are dex class and has good amount of dodge.) This is the ehp you should build for 3500armor/400resistance and 45k life, anything on top is more or less wasted if you are losing dps because of it.

Hi Rimripper
with only 30 dis, you will run into problems.

Take Xenophis's build
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UegRQY!fXe!ZcYZab
There are 2 problems with this build
1. You can only use your discipline when you start a fight, and if you don't want to waste you can't move. 2. All passive is used to support discipline replenishment and most likely gears at 30 discipline means you don't have much of a build choice.

I said if you use RF, grenades, or SC with NS you will be able to get discipline from NS. But you end up with no other choice, maybe except for prep as another option. When a player use their discipline mainly for SP they will very likely be dead when they run out.

As the class I think we are fine, not good, but fine because we are not getting buffs after 1.05 so our edps is lower compare to the others that are getting buffs. But when you gear you demon hunter all for defensive you lose your dps, and lowering your epds creating a edps issue for yourself.
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Hi Ragnar

Great to know. I made the video mainly after discussions that dh are squishy and will die in 1 shot with such a low ehp in MP10. I have and will continue to do say this, if you got enough discipline to spawn Gloom and continue a stream of attacks, you don't need to have the same ehp you see on a monk (I'm using monk as they are dex class and has good amount of dodge.) This is the ehp you should build for 3500armor/400resistance and 45k life, anything on top is more or less wasted if you are losing dps because of it.

Hi Rimripper
with only 30 dis, you will run into problems.

Take Xenophis's build
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UegRQY!fXe!ZcYZab
There are 2 problems with this build
1. You can only use your discipline when you start a fight, and if you don't want to waste you can't move. 2. All passive is used to support discipline replenishment and most likely gears at 30 discipline means you don't have much of a build choice.

I said if you use RF, grenades, or SC with NS you will be able to get discipline from NS. But you end up with no other choice, maybe except for prep as another option. When a player use their discipline mainly for SP they will very likely be dead when they run out.

As the class I think we are fine, not good, but fine because we are not getting buffs after 1.05 so our edps is lower compare to the others that are getting buffs. But when you gear you demon hunter all for defensive you lose your dps, and lowering your epds creating a edps issue for yourself.


I don't normally stoop to a lower level, but for you Kirus, I'll make an exception since you're so blissfully ignorant. Because you clearly don't know how to play a tank DH, I'll spend some time educating you on your behalf.

1. Waste disc? Sorry, I don't understand what that means when I have near-infinite disc. And I regen while moving, easily. You just don't know how through lack of experience with my build.

2. What in the world are you talking about? All my passives? This exemplifies your lack of knowledge. Almost all DH's use Archery. So you're wrong there. And I can easily replace perfectionist with Cull for a huge damage boost. Only 1 passive needed for infinite disc. Fair trade in my eyes. As you so clearly stated already, having such high eHP isn't needed right? So why are you contradicting your own statement by saying due to my gear choice, I have a lack of build diversity? It's infact, you who chose to go the purely dps route, that eliminated the ability to tank anywhere near my level, whereas I can easily change my shield to a quiver, and swap a single passive to get 375k dps, 830 all res, 70k HP, 4.8k armor.

Your decision to narrow yourself down the dps route actually limited your build diversity, whereas if I wanted to go the dps route, I can EASILY make the transition.
Edited by Xenophis#1434 on 8/15/2013 3:07 PM PDT
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NS is passive for the weak....

Before you all jump your guns let me try to explain.

There are 3 DPS passives : SA > CtW > Archery

Removing one of them gimps your potential damage. The best one for example it SA which give you extra 20% damage. At 300k DPS, that's an additional 60k DPS! Many DHs are easily tempted replacing the Nat's disc cloak for Innas chest for that extra 130 dex (which is only about 10k DPS increase at around 300k unbuffed)

Its the domino effect of replacing the dependable Innas belt to the witch belt which mostly offers nothing more that AS inflated DPS increase. Its the DPS dragsters setup which allows you to brag your DPS on diabloprogess, Its also the same setup coming from those that say "My 150k DPS barb clears content way better than my 350k DPS DH" and it is probably true.

- - -

Here's my quick list of NAB items for DH :

Inna's chest
WH belt on calamity
AR rolls on legendary chest
AR rolls on Innas pants
no CD / CC on gloves
no CD / CC on ammy
weak / no skill Bonus on DML
no CD nats reflection when wielding 2h weapon
mediocre Lacunis / WH (no AR / EHP rolls)
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@Ragnar: I called you ignorant because your reply to me was hypocritical, you have no idea what MP a DH is capable of, you can only attempt to infer. Your reply undermined even the perspective Xenophis was coming from. MP10 is just increased numbers, no new AI changes. If someone is wearing low end blues, MP2 could just as easily become MP10 in practice, and MP10 could be like MP50.
Because I've never played the game, and never played DH? I'm not "attempting" to "infer". I'm looking at both your SC and HC DHs and they shouldn't be in MP10. Will you die in MP10? Probably not often - as you said, it largely depends on player skill.
Will you take ages to kill things? Absolutely. With your gear, you're talking an average of ~75 secs/elite pack. I'm guesstimating - am I wrong?
But.. anyway - I have no desire to continue this tet-at-tet.

Let's get back to the original subject - your argument is that 10 disc>200 stats for MP10 because it enhances your char's skills more than the pure stat points. If we have no trouble surviving, regenerating disc (since we both STILL have to use NS), what advantage do you gain from the extra 10 disc?
Edited by Ragnar#1875 on 8/15/2013 3:50 PM PDT
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Impreza, I don't know man... you can get damage from skills or you can get damage from gear. Yes, I use disc regen passives. I use them because I've geared such that I don't have extra disc.

Have I tried the opposite - gear for defense (disc) and skill for offense? No, I haven't. I bet, however, that I've got it right and in the end, my way is more efficient.

I say that because my edps is like 1.6 mill. I have a near 300k dmg ww barb who hits all the right breakpoints and I can tell you from experience, my 350k dps demon hunter easily kills with similar efficiency. Now, I haven't played my barb in a good long time - since rapid fire was boosted - he does live better, the dh is more squishy for sure, but in terms of raw killing power on mp10, no problems at all.

You're way may well be better, but I've never seen it. I've played with (not seen, actually played with) only two demon hunters that killed better than me and lived better than me and they were similarly geared, just better geared. Maybe I should get out more, but that's been my experience.
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Mmm... popcorn. Fun thread.

In my experience how much disc you need for your build, whether you need to run prep or not, depends on A LOT of factors. It depends on whether you run nightstalker and/or vengeance, it depends on your crit chance, it depends on the skills you use and how well they utilize NS, it depends on your EHP as to how often you have to gloom, whether you have LoH or innate LS, whether you get hit more or less because you are using skills that snare or knockback.

I know when I was using Calamity with 70%+ CC and using NS and Perfectionist and using JS, Bola, Shuriken Cloud, ST, and Guardian Sentry with 600+ AR and ~4500 armor I had PLENTY of disc with 30 base and could easily perma gloom and have plenty of extra to stack JS. It isn't so much about your pool, it's about your regen rate and how often you need shadow power up, and honestly you can easily have 100% uptime with the right build even though you may not 100% uptime.

However, when I dropped my EHP in exchange for DPS and started running a bit of a glassier build I absolutely had to run prep, and I was fine with 30 disc and focused mind. It would have been more comfortable to have had more of a cushion because I had to manage disc, so for awhile I actually ran with 4 piece nats for 50 disc. If you do the math, you're better off with 4 piece nats than 10 disc on your quiver and cloak, assuming you aren't an SoJ user. For certain builds and gear setups I can definitely see where you'd get more benefit from 50 disc+ rather than the stats.

As it goes now I don't run shadow power, so I only use my disc for vault, and with tumble and base disc regen I can vault as much as I need to with 30 disc.

It isn't black and white.
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08/15/2013 03:49 PMPosted by Ragnar
@Ragnar: I called you ignorant because your reply to me was hypocritical, you have no idea what MP a DH is capable of, you can only attempt to infer. Your reply undermined even the perspective Xenophis was coming from. MP10 is just increased numbers, no new AI changes. If someone is wearing low end blues, MP2 could just as easily become MP10 in practice, and MP10 could be like MP50.
Because I've never played the game, and never played DH? I'm not "attempting" to "infer". I'm looking at both your SC and HC DHs and they shouldn't be in MP10. Will you die in MP10? Probably not often - as you said, it largely depends on player skill.
Will you take ages to kill things? Absolutely. With your gear, you're talking an average of ~75 secs/elite pack. I'm guesstimating - am I wrong?
But.. anyway - I have no desire to continue this tet-at-tet.

Let's get back to the original subject - your argument is that 10 disc>200 stats for MP10 because it enhances your char's skills more than the pure stat points. If we have no trouble surviving, regenerating disc (since we both STILL have to use NS), what advantage do you gain from the extra 10 disc?


My SC DH doesn't count anyway. And I don't flex gear or MP levels or tell players where they should play, even under circumstances where I'm the "king of the hill"

Using your logic, your DH doesn't belong in MP10 either, but that's besides the point. MP10 simply is not a good idea for my character, my own skill and ability independent. As there are conditions that present themselves to where I can get 1 shot. Pre-MP HC Inferno was more difficult than MP10, not due to just the stats themselves but the circulation of gear.

*with that said interestingly enough I was playing HC MP10 last night

Back to the original subject, my argument was never that 10 disc > 200 stats for MP10. Again it has nothing to do with MP. How many times I gotta say this.

There are times when 10 disc < 200 stats and 10 disc > 200 stats. It depends on the totality of everything involved down to rune selection. It's the same with Hatred. So for me to argue for one or the other I'd just be playing devil's advocate(I do play that a lot though :\). But I do value discipline over 200 stats in general only... because it provides an actual gameplay difference and not just an increase in numbers game.

MP1 is exactly like MP10, I don't give a !@#$. It's just increased or decreased numbers, no AI improvements. Increased item rewards means nothing, because the items in this game suck anyway. We pick the MP we feel matches how long we personally want confrontations to last, nothing more. I increase the worth of my gear in order to play with players that want to play in particular MPs, and if we go lower I switch my gear up to keep the same feeling or swap to improved faceroll to make my char feel empowered or whatever.

When it all comes down to it I only look for gameplay changers. More discipline means less reliance on my gear and I can just let my actual gameplay abilities or lack there of take control(outside of the BS affixes).
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 8/15/2013 4:23 PM PDT
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Mmm... popcorn. Fun thread.

In my experience how much disc you need for your build, whether you need to run prep or not, depends on A LOT of factors. It depends on whether you run nightstalker and/or vengeance, it depends on your crit chance, it depends on the skills you use and how well they utilize NS, it depends on your EHP as to how often you have to gloom, whether you have LoH or innate LS, whether you get hit more or less because you are using skills that snare or knockback.

I know when I was using Calamity with 70%+ CC and using NS and Perfectionist and using JS, Bola, Shuriken Cloud, ST, and Guardian Sentry with 600+ AR and ~4500 armor I had PLENTY of disc with 30 base and could easily perma gloom and have plenty of extra to stack JS. It isn't so much about your pool, it's about your regen rate and how often you need shadow power up, and honestly you can easily have 100% uptime with the right build even though you may not 100% uptime.

However, when I dropped my EHP in exchange for DPS and started running a bit of a glassier build I absolutely had to run prep, and I was fine with 30 disc and focused mind. It would have been more comfortable to have had more of a cushion because I had to manage disc, so for awhile I actually ran with 4 piece nats for 50 disc. If you do the math, you're better off with 4 piece nats than 10 disc on your quiver and cloak, assuming you aren't an SoJ user. For certain builds and gear setups I can definitely see where you'd get more benefit from 50 disc+ rather than the stats.

As it goes now I don't run shadow power, so I only use my disc for vault, and with tumble and base disc regen I can vault as much as I need to with 30 disc.

It isn't black and white.


This post sums it up. And it shows an very good understanding of disc management. Long story short. Extra disc is by no means necessary, but with certain builds, it can work very well. Many players get by perfectly fine without sacrificing stats for disc on gear, and that's a fact so imposing the idea that someone is wrong for a choice of playstyle / gearing just doesn't make sense. And I also don't like being told that I can't do something when I specifically set out to gear for that intent and purpose.

Both choices work, and DH's have enough variety of skills to compensate for the diversity of builds viable to use. I have nothing against the way folks play dps, tank, or otherwise, I only have a problem with folks that try to funnel a one-sided thought that a specific playstyle is correct. I actually stay AWAY from FoTM builds by choice. They bore me to death, simple as that.
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@rimripper

trust me I kill them elites really fast... 10-15 secs mostly.

I bought and sold lots of sets, tried all sorts of builds etc... so far this is the best I have come up with. I've seen lots of vids of DH with better DPS, call me a prick but I was never impressed with their kill times on mp10.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Impreza-2701/hero/18930023
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I have just recently decided to start farming MP10 regularly, and I have to say that in keeping with my base 30 disc pool the only thing I have noticed is that I have to move around a bit more, and that things take a bit longer to kill. That's about it. I still have no issues with disc whatsoever. I have only died on a few occasions to a few different packs of elites when I was just playing sloppy; had nothing to do with too little disc. I suppose if the argument is whether or not 10 disc>200 to a stat, I suppose it really comes down to what you have those stats at already, and what you're building for. There really is no blanket answer for this question, as there are simply too many variables to account for.
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08/15/2013 09:32 AMPosted by SwSw
do u die often? if the answer is no, then u r fine


.
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