Diablo® III

Loot 2.0: You made the same mistakes again

08/26/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Grimiku
Loot 2.0 is still in progress, and we'll be sharing more details as things develop. In the meantime we will be gathering feedback, and making sure your concerns are brought up. While on the subject, though, I'd like to point out that a single Legendary may or may not be enough to change your build, but it's important to take into consideration that it's likely that you'll have multiple Legendary items. Personally, I have an easier time imagining some interesting alternative mechanics when I think about multiple Legendary item effects working at once. Just something to think about while we wait for more information about Loot 2.0.


just make sure any proccs you do put into the game scale with your dmg, not just do a flat amount. all those legendarys will more than likely just be ignored unless they have BiS critdmg, dps and a socket.

other than that what i would most like to see is skill changers. something that gave weapon throw splash damage would be the best thing ever. id go throw barb in hc right away.

something that removes knockback on siesmic slam would also be welcome, so that if you one day manage to make that skill not total !@#$, we could use it without being annoyed to hell by the knockback.

just my 2 cents worth.
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08/26/2013 12:25 PMPosted by tbagala
That's great, but what about rare items? Legendary gimmicks seem to be the only focus, but will rares have a chance to compete? Why should we rely on dismal drop rates for any chance of diversity? Rare items should roll interesting affixes as well.


Then what exactly would be legendary about legendary items if you could just get the same effect from some random yellows?


It's not so much about rare items being better or worse, but about the average quality of loot as a whole. Legendaries are current;y affected because they're way too random. Rares are even more affected by this faulty system because all of their properties are entirely randomized. Making legendaries "game changing" by giving them gimmicky effects alone won't address this fault unless they stop pretending excessive randomization is a positive thing for this game.

They're just trying to give flashy effects to certain legendaries without addressing the main flaw in the current itemization, and that's a bad thing. What about the more than half affixes that are garbage? So far they've at least acknowledged affix ranges are stupidly large, but that's just a fraction of the total problem. We're still having at least half of the affix pool being completely undesirable, something that's simply not right for a game where loot revolves around RNG. So far we have seen nothing about changing the current garbage affixes, or removing the absolutely useless or redundant ones. They just mentioned they wanted to "improve" thorns, but that's about it. There are still at least 20 affixes that are complete garbage that pop everywhere:
- proc effects, 8 completely underwhelming effects, out of which at least 4 are redundant.
- Life after kill
- +XP per kill
- level requirement reduced by X, trivializing low level content)
- indestructible, absolutely useless.
- 6 affixes for individual resistances (negligible unless you're a monk with OWE)
- CC reduction, completely underwhelming
- thorns, useless
- bleeds, useless
Are they going to address that with their loot 2.0? Because if they don't, it won't work.

Item quality should be determined by roll values, not by affixes themselves being bad. Every affix should be strong enough to dictate a gearing choice if it rolls high enough to be good.
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08/26/2013 12:35 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
That's great, but what about rare items? Legendary gimmicks seem to be the only focus, but will rares have a chance to compete? Why should we rely on dismal drop rates for any chance of diversity? Rare items should roll interesting affixes as well.


I disagree. Legendary should have special affixes that make them legendary. Rares should not compete with legendary. Rares should just be a step until you can get legendaries. I like the way it seems they are approaching gear drops. Whites becomes less common and are primarily used as crafting mats. Blues are also less common and primarily used for transmog skins. I mean who really uses whites and blues to gear anyway. So of course yellows are your basic gear which should have nice usable stats for any build. And then you have legendaries which should be a step up. I like keeping rare items generic promoting build diversity as you can use them in any build and then legendaries promoting specific builds.


Rares (and even magic items) should NOT be unanimously worse than legendary items. If that's the case, eventually they're just obsolete. As white items in D3 show, there's no reason to even have a category if it's just going to be useless. Either remove it or give it some potential.

If you didn't know, the way affixes worked in D2 was that magic items could roll highest, rares were allowed more affixes but some of them were capped lower than on magic items, and legendaries could get anything, but of course their stats were all predefined. So if you wanted maximum damage to the exclusion of all else, you usually needed a +6 to skills magic item (which was insanely rare). If you wanted a easy to acquire item that did what you needed, and may have something unique about it, you used a unique. If you wanted the best (stats-wise), you used a rare, but a "perfect" rare was impossible to ever find. (Of course there were also runewords, but they're a separate category). I don't really see any problems with this system. Every category is equally good for something, and on top of that there's almost nothing you'll NEVER want to pick up.
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08/26/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Grimiku
Loot 2.0 is still in progress, and we'll be sharing more details as things develop. In the meantime we will be gathering feedback, and making sure your concerns are brought up. While on the subject, though, I'd like to point out that a single Legendary may or may not be enough to change your build, but it's important to take into consideration that it's likely that you'll have multiple Legendary items. Personally, I have an easier time imagining some interesting alternative mechanics when I think about multiple Legendary item effects working at once. Just something to think about while we wait for more information about Loot 2.0.


A huge huge concern I have is how characterless the itemslots currently seem. You look at shoulders, you want 6 affixes, you look at chest you want 6 affixes, you look at every slot and every time you want 6 affixes. If you go out into battle and you find a chest plate shouldnt it count for a little more than putting some bracers? It doesnt mean boots have to be weaker than a chest plate, but they just need to be completely different. If I look at boots I should be thinking "Oh, this item goes on to my feet, because it grants me agility and utility in combat". On the other hand things like a chest plate should be really focused on pure defense (they dont need mainstats, they are chest plates after all, they protect you!!!). Make boots have only up to 3 affixes, make chest plates have up to 4 affixes but those can roll absurdly high defense values. Give shoulder pads the allround treatment: they can have everything and can hold up to 8 or 10 affixes, but they dont roll quite as high and a 10 affix shoulder pad is as rare as an ilvl 63 unique.

The other concern, of course, is how much the affixes themselves devalue into simple +dmg or +def calculations. When I equip a new item, I dont even care what itemslot it is. All I see is +x dmg +x def and that is all I have to know. It doesnt matter if it's a weapon, a helmet or some gloves, as soon as I see green numbers I have little to no concern what I am switching out. This will be better once elemental damage become more attractive but it's still not ideal. The answer is again more distinction between items and itemslots with more character. People hate giving up their boots for more damage because they lose movespeed and this is a decision that should occur way way more often.

A couple of affixes I could see work (I've posted dozens already, check my history!):

- On character specific items: rare affix: random passive

- On jewellery: 1-10 seconds reduced potion cooldown, get 3 perfect and you have a new source of healing

- bracers (bracers should have up to two completely nuts affixes, as they dont really offer any protection in combat these should replace defensive affixes):
+ x% chance to haste for y seconds (haste = 50% movespeed) after you get hit,
+ gain x-y damage for every 5% life missing
+ immunity to one crowd control effect from rare monster affixes
+ gain x armor for y seconds for every 1000 damage you take.
+ refill your resource globe by x% every time you drop below 30% life, y seconds cooldown
+ your primary abilities generate x% less resources but deal x% more damage

- shoulders (they are the most important visual aspect of your character, so treat them like that, give them grouprelated buffs!):
+ aura: increase attribute x by y,
+ aura: decreases damage enemies do by 100% of your strength
+ aura: increase movespeed of minions by 66%
+ reaper-aura: decrease damage of friendly characters by x% increase your own by 2x%

Dont judge me, I'm just trying to help and it's late :)

(I'm super optimistic towards the expansion, never give up, you guys are doing an amazing job!)
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 8/26/2013 3:47 PM PDT
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I'm sorry but loot 2.0 isn't suppose to be EVERY DROP IS A GODLY DROP.

OP needs to watch the loot 2.0 presentation again.


But for Gamescon presentation, you just don't show boring garbage like they did so this must be everything worth mentioning they had. For chance to cast hydra on kill i will not change my build, this would simply work with my current build aswell, not to mention this would be worthless addition.

Game changing legends would be something like:

Cast earthquake after you leap.
chance to cast rend when Whirlwind
gives you X skill ( for example archon when you are DH )
instead of one hydra you place three
cast Serenity when you would receive deadly dmg.
and more that adds extra effects on your skills or change them completly.
ability to use 2 runes at once predefined.
Always active mantras for everyone !

For rares i can see something like
Chance to cast X on attack (mostly offensive)
Chance to cast Y on being hitted. (mostly defensive)
simple +X% dmg to skill
-cdr to skill
lowered cost
simple +% dmg to skill
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08/26/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Grimiku
Loot 2.0 is still in progress, and we'll be sharing more details as things develop. In the meantime we will be gathering feedback, and making sure your concerns are brought up. While on the subject, though, I'd like to point out that a single Legendary may or may not be enough to change your build, but it's important to take into consideration that it's likely that you'll have multiple Legendary items. Personally, I have an easier time imagining some interesting alternative mechanics when I think about multiple Legendary item effects working at once. Just something to think about while we wait for more information about Loot 2.0.


Yeah, sure, ok.
Just make sure the weapons have a socket and crit damage as mandatory roles or they're going to be turned into brimstones.
Or nerf crit into oblivion.
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you decided a whole feature is bad because of a screenshot?
Do you make decisions in your daily life like this too?
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you decided a whole feature is bad because of a screenshot?
Do you make decisions in your daily life like this too?


We had screenshots in beta of what was to come and had concerns. Skepticism of loot 2.0 is justified, even based on one items screenie.
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Well, if there is a game mod where endless mobs spawn around you like a 1 hour soul jar event or something, I'm pretty sure it will be useful.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 8/26/2013 4:38 PM PDT
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The fact of the matter is that Blizzard decided to show those items at gamescom because they were proud of them. If that is any indication of what is to come, i really don't like where the game is going.

Those of you who keep saying that those are just 4 items and we shouldn't judge loot 2.0 by just looking at 4 items, ask yourself this: Why would they show at gamescom the worst possible legendaries if their goal was to get us excited for the game? In fact, they showed us the items they had most faith in to be successful, and they didn't deliver, in my opinion at least.

I've read several posts earlier that rares should have strong affixes as well. Uhm, you're not really grasping the concept of a legendary. THAT very affix is what is supposed to make them legendary. Rares will not be nerfed directly( unless they nerf some stats), however legendaries will be buffed. If rares had the same affixes as legendaries, why have legendaries anymore? We have to draw the line somewhere. I think it is obvious that legendaries should be superior to rares, just as rares are superior to blues and just how blues are superior to whites. How can you even be arguing against legendary specific affixes? It's honestly beyond me.
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08/26/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Dwelve
Loot 2.0 is still in progress, and we'll be sharing more details as things develop. In the meantime we will be gathering feedback, and making sure your concerns are brought up. While on the subject, though, I'd like to point out that a single Legendary may or may not be enough to change your build, but it's important to take into consideration that it's likely that you'll have multiple Legendary items. Personally, I have an easier time imagining some interesting alternative mechanics when I think about multiple Legendary item effects working at once. Just something to think about while we wait for more information about Loot 2.0.


A huge huge concern I have is how characterless the itemslots currently seem. You look at shoulders, you want 6 affixes, you look at chest you want 6 affixes, you look at every slot and every time you want 6 affixes. If you go out into battle and you find a chest plate shouldnt it count for a little more than putting some bracers? It doesnt mean boots have to be weaker than a chest plate, but they just need to be completely different. If I look at boots I should be thinking "Oh, this item goes on to my feet, because it grants me agility and utility in combat". On the other hand things like a chest plate should be really focused on pure defense (they dont need mainstats, they are chest plates after all, they protect you!!!). Make boots have only up to 3 affixes, make chest plates have up to 4 affixes but those can roll absurdly high defense values. Give shoulder pads the allround treatment: they can have everything and can hold up to 8 or 10 affixes, but they dont roll quite as high and a 10 affix shoulder pad is as rare as an ilvl 63 unique.

The other concern, of course, is how much the affixes themselves devalue into simple +dmg or +def calculations. When I equip a new item, I dont even care what itemslot it is. All I see is +x dmg +x def and that is all I have to know. It doesnt matter if it's a weapon, a helmet or some gloves, as soon as I see green numbers I have little to no concern what I am switching out. This will be better once elemental damage become more attractive but it's still not ideal. The answer is again more distinction between items and itemslots with more character. People hate giving up their boots for more damage because they lose movespeed and this is a decision that should occur way way more often.

A couple of affixes I could see work (I've posted dozens already, check my history!):

- On character specific items: rare affix: random passive

- On jewellery: 1-10 seconds reduced potion cooldown, get 3 perfect and you have a new source of healing

- bracers (bracers should have up to two completely nuts affixes, as they dont really offer any protection in combat these should replace defensive affixes):
+ x% chance to haste for y seconds (haste = 50% movespeed) after you get hit,
+ gain x-y damage for every 5% life missing
+ immunity to one crowd control effect from rare monster affixes
+ gain x armor for y seconds for every 1000 damage you take.
+ refill your resource globe by x% every time you drop below 30% life, y seconds cooldown
+ your primary abilities generate x% less resources but deal x% more damage

- shoulders (they are the most important visual aspect of your character, so treat them like that, give them grouprelated buffs!):
+ aura: increase attribute x by y,
+ aura: decreases damage enemies do by 100% of your strength
+ aura: increase movespeed of minions by 66%
+ reaper-aura: decrease damage of friendly characters by x% increase your own by 2x%

Dont judge me, I'm just trying to help and it's late :)

(I'm super optimistic towards the expansion, never give up, you guys are doing an amazing job!)


Really great post about how each slot could do something unique! Great ideas!

Cool things like specials where the sword procs on hit with offensive abilities, where boots proc on dodge with evasive abilities, armor procs on being hit, and shield procs on block might add another layer of thought to the magical abilities that people want to tailor their build to.
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When i saw the legendaries featured at gamescon I had exactly the same feeling. As pointed out, they probably presented their best try for legendaries and I have to say so far none of the legendaries presented will encourage me to change my build. Sure the reduced cooldown on every skills looks cool and I hope it will be a viable way to fix the current supremacy of Critical Mass in the current wizard state but it does not seem like a unique affixe from ONE legendary but more a placeholder when no particular idea is found.

I was far more exited by the proposition of MonsterMonstruosity about rune directly integrated to legendary. If I have to sum it up, he basically emit the idea that some legendary would change a particular skill as drastically as a rune. Of course it is clearly the path of hard labor for the dev because it needs a lot more work to design a new rune than it is to simply tweak number. For me, only tweaking numbers is against what we know of the design philosophy of loot 2.0.

I am not saying that a wand that spawn a lot of hydra is not cool; I am saying it is not what I would consider a build changing affix. If we are not going to have new rune from legendary I suggest to make a recap of all the least used skill and look at what they need to be useful while excluding any basic number tweaking like damage boost. I am looking of things like :

"arcane orb now explode immediately on cast (like fan of knives)."

At first you will be? Why somebody would ever want arcane orb to explode on cast instead of exploding on hit. It seems it is just a nerf of the range right? Yes and no, while it is a nerf for the current use of arcane orb, you now can spam arcane orb : arcane orbit and still get explosion out of that it. Otherwise the orbs does not have time to hit a monster if you spam it and you basically waste the cost of the skill over and over.

Other examples of non-number tweaking yet easy(ish) to implement affixes that came to my mind :

"All your teammate, pets and follower now benefit from your wizard armor skill (like a shout or a mantra)." - It is a really distinguishable legendary and you cannot realy ignore the wizard have it since it pops an effect directly on your character
"Your armor, and magic weapon now last 5 seconds but they are 5 time as powerful. (numbers are completely messy but you get the idea)" - support burst damage for 5 second play style like an arcane dynamo meteor wizard
"When you cast a monk combo primary skill your first of the three move is always the first move of fist of lighting : thunderclap no matter the combo skill used." - It could be generalized for every monk combo : you get the idea. I chosed thunderclap because it is indeed cool to blink around.
"leap now have only 1 second cool down, grant no fury and cost no fury" - leaper gonna leap
"Skills that costs discipline now cost hatred instead. + 50 hatred +1 hatred regen."
"Gain resource (fury, spirit, arcane power, mana, hatred and discipline) regeneration based on percentages of that resource missing." - now you can afford that cluster arrow spamming build.
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that is a 3000 DPS wand. any weapon with a damage that high is going to be very rare. therefore, its not garbage.
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Increasing the values on the affixes is not a good idea for a Diablo game. When you have DPS fluctuations such as ~5000dps (when you enter Inferno) to ~hundreds of thousands at high end you can not expect to balance the spells or the monster health/dps for all variations.
Please consider a different system before simply slapping higher numbers:
On entering Inferno: ~2000dps
On mid end gear ~10,000dps
On high end gear ~15,000dps
This is vastly easier to balance both when it comes to spells and affixes. Spell percentage numbers can be replaced with flat numbers.
BIS gear should not only drop in Inferno. If mid or high end gear drops in other difficulties people would not ignore them. A good example would be the Stone of Jordan ring in Diablo 2 where the best place to get it is Andariel on Nightmare.
Consider a Diablo 2 item system such as the one described before we end up ridiculous amount of zeroes for Health/Damage and impossible to balance spells and affixes.

Thank you.
Edited by Jimmy#2746 on 8/26/2013 6:07 PM PDT
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08/26/2013 04:58 PMPosted by Charoum


A huge huge concern I have is how characterless the itemslots currently seem. You look at shoulders, you want 6 affixes, you look at chest you want 6 affixes, you look at every slot and every time you want 6 affixes. If you go out into battle and you find a chest plate shouldnt it count for a little more than putting some bracers? It doesnt mean boots have to be weaker than a chest plate, but they just need to be completely different. If I look at boots I should be thinking "Oh, this item goes on to my feet, because it grants me agility and utility in combat". On the other hand things like a chest plate should be really focused on pure defense (they dont need mainstats, they are chest plates after all, they protect you!!!). Make boots have only up to 3 affixes, make chest plates have up to 4 affixes but those can roll absurdly high defense values. Give shoulder pads the allround treatment: they can have everything and can hold up to 8 or 10 affixes, but they dont roll quite as high and a 10 affix shoulder pad is as rare as an ilvl 63 unique.

The other concern, of course, is how much the affixes themselves devalue into simple +dmg or +def calculations. When I equip a new item, I dont even care what itemslot it is. All I see is +x dmg +x def and that is all I have to know. It doesnt matter if it's a weapon, a helmet or some gloves, as soon as I see green numbers I have little to no concern what I am switching out. This will be better once elemental damage become more attractive but it's still not ideal. The answer is again more distinction between items and itemslots with more character. People hate giving up their boots for more damage because they lose movespeed and this is a decision that should occur way way more often.

A couple of affixes I could see work (I've posted dozens already, check my history!):

- On character specific items: rare affix: random passive

- On jewellery: 1-10 seconds reduced potion cooldown, get 3 perfect and you have a new source of healing

- bracers (bracers should have up to two completely nuts affixes, as they dont really offer any protection in combat these should replace defensive affixes):
+ x% chance to haste for y seconds (haste = 50% movespeed) after you get hit,
+ gain x-y damage for every 5% life missing
+ immunity to one crowd control effect from rare monster affixes
+ gain x armor for y seconds for every 1000 damage you take.
+ refill your resource globe by x% every time you drop below 30% life, y seconds cooldown
+ your primary abilities generate x% less resources but deal x% more damage

- shoulders (they are the most important visual aspect of your character, so treat them like that, give them grouprelated buffs!):
+ aura: increase attribute x by y,
+ aura: decreases damage enemies do by 100% of your strength
+ aura: increase movespeed of minions by 66%
+ reaper-aura: decrease damage of friendly characters by x% increase your own by 2x%

Dont judge me, I'm just trying to help and it's late :)

(I'm super optimistic towards the expansion, never give up, you guys are doing an amazing job!)


Really great post about how each slot could do something unique! Great ideas!

Cool things like specials where the sword procs on hit with offensive abilities, where boots proc on dodge with evasive abilities, armor procs on being hit, and shield procs on block might add another layer of thought to the magical abilities that people want to tailor their build to.


I also had a post regarding weapon types:

http://i.imgur.com/BqA8wcS.png

The idea behind that was to make weapontypes have strengths/weaknesses in certain areas. Adding unique procs to specific weapon types could also be an option. I'd be up for anything that makes weapontypes a little more distinguishable outside of attackspeed.
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This is a way to make a "build changer" for hydras...
if wizards could spawn 3-5 hydras before the engagement and when the hydras do damage the wizard regains 3 Arcane Power per attack from each hydra so now hydras synergisticaly benefit the wizards bigger damage skills making it easier to cast spells like Meteor or Sleet Storm. Not only that, wizards do not have to worry about APOC on off hands or helmets because of this one single wand which would change how I gear with itemization and skills as well, I could drop that storm crow and get the crit mempo instead etc. I could not worry about an APOC off hand and focus on a higher damage one for less cost. I could drop other skills such as Astral Presence, Diamond Skin (with reduced 7 AP to skills rune) all the while this type of wand encourages me to use the hydra skill because it benefits my wizard in a unique way by make the skill an arcane power generator. To me this is more of a "build changer" because it has rippling effects else where with passives and item choices and it encourages wizards to use the hydra skill which is worthless right now

Also, remember back when the devs said they want to encourage different play styles such as wizards using a melee style and a *shield* since blizzard wants to encourage more build and itemization, shields should be able to spawn with APOC on them just saying, and Staves need a buff too by the way.
Edited by NOLLegendz#1445 on 8/26/2013 5:59 PM PDT
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Increasing the numbers of affixes is not a good idea for a Diablo game. When you have DPS fluctuations such as ~5000dps (when you enter Inferno) to ~hundreds of thousands at high end you can not expect to balance the spells or the monster health/dps for all variations.
Please consider a different system before simply slapping higher numbers:
On entering Inferno: ~2000dps
On mid end gear ~10,000dps
On high end gear ~15,000dps
This is vastly easier to balance both when it comes to spells and affixes. Spell percentage numbers can be replaced with flat numbers.
BIS gear should not only drop in Inferno. If mid or high end gear drops in other difficulties people would not ignore them. A good example would be the Stone of Jordan ring in Diablo 2 where the best place to get it is Andariel on Nightmare.
Consider a Diablo 2 item system such as the one described before we end up ridiculous amount of zeroes for Health/Damage and impossible to balance spells and affixes.

Thank you.
this Is a fantastic idea.... Except that would require a detachment of damage being solely based on weapon damage. This however, is not going to happen.
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08/26/2013 05:34 PMPosted by Mathalamus
that is a 3000 DPS wand. any weapon with a damage that high is going to be very rare. therefore, its not garbage.

Missed the point of this thread completely.

Here's a couple of build changers just off the top of my head, might be stupidly OP:

Grasp of the dead spawns skeletons during its duration.
Poison dart explodes into a cloud of toxic fumes on impact.
If an enemy dies from spirit barrage their ghost will return and fight for you for 30sec.
Big bad voodoo shaman will now follow you for the duration of the skill.
Fetish army has no time limit.
Sacrifice blows up all your minions.
Soul harvest will now consume 8 enemies instead of than 5.
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Increasing the numbers of affixes is not a good idea for a Diablo game. When you have DPS fluctuations such as ~5000dps (when you enter Inferno) to ~hundreds of thousands at high end you can not expect to balance the spells or the monster health/dps for all variations.
Please consider a different system before simply slapping higher numbers:
On entering Inferno: ~2000dps
On mid end gear ~10,000dps
On high end gear ~15,000dps
This is vastly easier to balance both when it comes to spells and affixes. Spell percentage numbers can be replaced with flat numbers.


+1

At launch it was like that, and slight tweaks was all that was needed, even with the ridiculous amount of randomization. Then they introduced the gearcheck levels and allowed damage to go out of control by buffing not only items (weapons included), but also overdoing certain buffs for skills as well, causing a lot of easily predictable problems in the process (CHD and LL are the most evident ones), not to mention rendering all content easily outgearable, breaking that vision of inferno as content that would "always remain challenging".

If they decided to make mainhand damage as the only source of damage, you'd expect them to have a minimum amount of insight about how gamebreaking such irresponsible tweaks can be for the game. Too bad they seemed oblivious to those problems, and what's worse, persist on them, delivering FOTM skills every new patch.
Edited by Blashyrkh#1824 on 8/26/2013 6:10 PM PDT
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