Diablo® III

Proposed Change to Slayer/Thoughts on DW

Change: Replace the IAS roll with + 0.15 - 0.20 APS (+APS affix benefits both crossbows).

Reasoning: As it is right now, IAS on weapons is only 50% effective when dual wielding compared to single wielding (i.e. I need to get two IAS rolls in order to maintain my RF Breakpoint).

This change would make an otherwise undesirable hand crossbow a very compelling option even with its low DPS, and/or buff dual wielding in general.

Some additional thoughts from a dual wielder:

In examining weapon DPS affixes, the dual wielder needs to divide them into two groups, we'll call them Group A and Group B. Group A consists of those affixes that affect only one crossbow, while Group B affixes affect the damage of both crossbows. Affixes in Group A are: +Min Max/elemental damage, +damage %, and IAS. Affixes in Group B are: CHD, Dex, and Socket (more CHD).

Note: The intrepid Dual Wielder would be wise to maximize the affixes in Group B as they modify the damage output of both bows.

Going further, any good weapon needs to have both min max damage and damage % affixes, thus the dual wielder already has, at minimum, 4 affixes that are only active 50% Of the time. Adding IAS to the mix increases that number to 6. How many affixes do single wielders have that are only active 50% Of the time?
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 8/20/2013 9:46 PM PDT
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In general slayers have low damage so it can be very punishing for your damage, the Idea for the AS however is good, I wish that they could buff the slayer to the same area as a high end danetta for example
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08/20/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Crazy
In general slayers have low damage so it can be very punishing for your damage, the Idea for the AS however is good, I wish that they could buff the slayer to the same area as a high end danetta for example


Imagine pairing the proposed Slayer with Spite, thereby buffing the Spite to 1.8 APS! Furthermore, you would get a set bonus and cold damage with out SoJ.
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...or just remove the LOH component of Danetta's revenge and replace it with +APS affix? LoH is pretty useless anyway. (If they do not intend to change LoH mechanics)
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08/20/2013 07:40 AMPosted by ELYOS
...or just remove the LOH component of Danetta's revenge and replace it with +APS affix?


^This would be epic.
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regrading 1 hand weapons, personally all of them must call top end damage but the only difference they should have are the stats.

So for example lets say they all roll 1700+ damage but random stats, crit damage, crit hit chance, attack speed, % increased damage to random spell, main stat, discipline, regan hatred etc you get the idea

the idea is just having 1 handed weapons compete with 2handed weapons and since nothing beats deadmans offhand, going duel-wield isn't good idea. This would make 1handed weapons more appealing, and more so to duel-wield even.
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08/20/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Krak
going duel-wield isn't good idea.


then don't...

DW is inferior, I get it.

And since a good DML is much more expensive than a good Spite off hand, i say is fair.
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actually even cheap DM would be better then Spit in the offhand...

the idea I offered is way for 1handed weapons to compensate
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The value of my proposed change is that DW would get one more affix, which could be translated into 200 Dex. This would go a long way toward bridging the gap between DW and DML.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 8/20/2013 10:00 AM PDT
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In addition to the change above, the 1% CC affix should be replaced with a random skill bonus roll. This fix would the other disparity between DW and DML.
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08/20/2013 10:04 AMPosted by RedCell
In addition to the change above, the 1% CC affix should be replaced with a random skill bonus roll. This fix would the other disparity between DW and DML.


I didn't disagree with your idea, I simply added what I would also like to see on top of what already been said.

I especially would love to see random skill on our nats weapon. for example rapid fire, those who favor this spell, would most likely want to build their set around this. This idea can be extended into other weapons we have, even gear. having gear with random skill, everyone would start building their own fav set. Its just another ways we can enhance our spells, more ways to have different builds, enhancing all playstyles.

this would directly compete with DM as the offhand if we compensate other stats from it to our weapons as well ofc.
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Cool idea RedCell.
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08/20/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Krak
In addition to the change above, the 1% CC affix should be replaced with a random skill bonus roll. This fix would the other disparity between DW and DML.


I didn't disagree with your idea, I simply added what I would also like to see on top of what already been said.

I especially would love to see random skill on our nats weapon. for example rapid fire, those who favor this spell, would most likely want to build their set around this. This idea can be extended into other weapons we have, even gear. having gear with random skill, everyone would start building their own fav set. Its just another ways we can enhance our spells, more ways to have different builds, enhancing all playstyles.

this would directly compete with DM as the offhand if we compensate other stats from it to our weapons as well ofc.


Understood, thanks for your feedback. :)
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@Redcell - I know you use DW alot and I am sure you have put alot of thought into this .. I wish you the best in this " wishlist " thread. I have put out a couple myself.

Let's look at the current state of DH weapon gearing options:

Manticore w/ DML
Bows ( Rares and Windy ) w/ DML
Calamity w/ DML

gives us APS / DPS / and large vit. And an option for a few random rolls like Disc / magic find etc ...

versus

DW -

Dannetta's set
Dannetta's with Calamity
All rares

Gives us less DPS and APS .. It puts us in roughly the same range as a RARE BOW setup. The game play feels like that.

In the interest of build diversity, along with the NAT slayer change we also need some changes to passive bonus and also an innate DW bonuses.

Some key areas missing in the DH gearing overall..

AoE / eDPS / Mobility to name a few.

The point I am trying to get at is :

If the -

Manticore can achieve the best PER HIT damage but low resource regen ( natively speaking)
Bows can achieve knockback/ LS etc with mid range APS / DPS
Calamity can achieve good APS with good DPS plus resource regen via shooting and 1.3 per second..

DW - needs to stand out at something..

1 - it must be able to achieve simular DPS
2 - it must be able to specialize in some area. Native Disc.. regen comes to mind. The legacy Nat. set shouldn't be our only option for this.

My personal take is that it should have a movespeed / attack speed / life regen / disc. regen bonus for DW. Especially the movespeed. DW is seen as a mobility weapon gearing option..
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2 - it must be able to specialize in some area. Native Disc.. regen comes to mind. The legacy Nat. set shouldn't be our only option for this.

My personal take is that it should have a movespeed / attack speed / life regen / disc. regen bonus for DW. Especially the movespeed. DW is seen as a mobility weapon gearing option


wouldn't that make DW op?
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08/20/2013 12:47 PMPosted by SwSw
wouldn't that make DW op?


I don't believe so. I don't have a guilt complex. Usually the knee jerk reaction is to give us something and take something back. Look at the benefits of RF buff. Less chanelling cost plus higher dps. End of the day we have something DHers will use. DH doesn't need anymore drawbacks. We have lots of them already..

ie:

Rend = high AoE / low cost / High DPS and no cool down

versus

Fan of Knives = useless runes towards CC plus cool downs. . thanks..
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@BlackVenom

Thanks for nice comments. :)

Regarding your suggestion on disc regen, I'm a bit jittery about giving innate bonuses for using one style over another. IMO, the 15% innate IAS is as far as it should go. Furthermore, I used to be in the camp of those asking for a DW buff to the archery passive; however, I am now convinced that DW needs to be fixed via items for the following reasons: 1) the imbalance exists because of an item, the DML, and 2) we should not get a better buff from archery than the Barbs do from weapon master.

Returning to your suggestion about disc regen, we already have a Hatred and Discipline set in Danetta's. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that disc management is an integral part of the DHs compelling gameplay. We have a lot of skill options for restoring our disc pool, giving players one more thing consider when theory crafting. I would hate to see gear invalidate this important component of a good build.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 8/20/2013 9:40 PM PDT
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I'm still trying to figure out what the design decision was on the Nat's Slayer and DW in general for DHs.

It's my favorite weapon in the game, yet I still can't figure out how to include it just yet. By itself it's terrible, but within the Nat's set what # it is could be beneficial on dealing real damage(not paper DPS, and screw eDPS) for that specific DH.

If we look at it as it as being piece #2 you get 8% more crit chance. In this respect, one would likely not be shooting for the ring, but more likely the Cloak as the first piece.

If we're dual wielding it, then the Nat's boots probably shouldn't be #1 either as Ice Climbers could help alleviate the loss of vit from quiver.

If it's the 3rd piece then that 300+ Dex(130 from the set and 170+ from the weapon) will largely vary based on how much Dex you have everywhere else. And, under many circumstances, that bonus isn't going to be the greatest.

Now if one is using something like Prep Punishment, then the Nat's Slayer being the 4th piece can be a pretty big deal. However, it's fighting with the possibility of the Nat's Sight being a huge bonus 3rd piece over a Mempo, Rare, or Andy's.

I still can't figure out how to fit it in.

Overall though I definitely agree like what we were talking about yesterday with the change for the Slayer on 0.15-0.20 aps. It would make it an instant 2 aps+ weapon, which is a great thing for the weapon.

Damn I went on a rant.

EDIT: Proportionally I think they made Calamity way too good. Maybe it shouldn't have had a native attack speed roll on it or native crit damage.

What really annoys me though is just the Slayer's low end of the damage. The min is just too low. It's just too low. I'd have taken a smaller maximum.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 8/20/2013 3:58 PM PDT
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Oh, also, I think what hurts DW the most is the lost of the skill bonus you can get from quiver. It seems like in many scenarios that's the one you want the most over what the chests can get.
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I agree with actionkungfu that they made calamity and manticore way too strong. Thats only explain how dev team came up with current design of nat slayer. Since they cant nerf what they buffed already they have to do something on slayer and yeah why not. Redcell's idea is not bad. Seriously todays game devs should really be careful when they buff something in game.
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