Diablo® III

Malthael the bad guy... wait what?

Malthael seems more like a more neutral sort of character. He isn't strictly good or strictly evil; I believe his motive is to destroy all demons. It just so happens that the Nephalem are half-demons as well as half-angels. He didn't kill Tyrael because Tyrael is not a demon.
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08/22/2013 05:17 PMPosted by Sanguine
Do none of them remember that the Hellforge and the Anvil of Annihilation are things? Tyrael is being a pretty bad at embodying Wisdom by forgetting that a method to destroy soulstones and banish their contained essences from the mortal plane exists, as well as by seeking to hide the Black Soulstone.


The issue with this logic is that the original three Soulstones were created at the Hellforge by Izual and Tyrael. Much in the same way that the One Ring in LotR could only be destroyed at Mt. Doom, the place where it was created, the Soulstones can only be destroyed at their place of creation.

The issue with the Black Soulstone is that it was not created at the Hellforge, it was created using magic by the nephalem Zoltun Kulle. Only Kulle would have known how to destroy the stone, and since he is dead and it doesn't seem like he left behind a record of how to destroy the stone, there is no way to destroy it currently.


This is false. As per the Book of Cain: "He [Tyrael] spoke of the Hellforge, located in the deepest pit of the Realm of Destruction. It was here that the demonic smiths forged Hell's most powerful weapons. Thus, it was said that the dread Hellforge held many unholy anvils, and among them was the Anvil of Annihilation. It was upon this anvil that angelic weapons and artifacts were destroyed. Legends held that anything broken upon the Anvil of Annihilation, no matter how powerful, would be forever negated."

The original soulstones were fashioned from shards of the World Stone. To my knowledge they were not fashioned at the Hellforge. Izual was captured at the Hellforge while leading an assault in attempt to stop the completion of the Shadowfang blade.
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Possibly the most civilized forum posts >ever<
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I consider myself pretty smart, or wise, to keep some insect spray in the cupboard to spray any mosquitos or flies that get inside and bother me.

Its wise because they can potentially spread germs and disease.

The insects I spray though, probably don't consider me very wise, and might label me the 'bad guy'. Consider what humans are to Malthael before judging him corrupt, a bad guy, or no longer wise. Its all a matter of perspective.
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:))
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Just wondering, can Tyrael's sword not hurt anyone who is good/just? Is that determined by Tyrael or the person? I'm thinking that if perhaps the person themselves believes they are doing the right thing, the sword cannot hurt them. So if Malthael honestly believes he is trying to make the world better, then Tyrael's sword couldn't hurt him.
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It seems to me that Malthael is guilty of a human problem (as in, not really his problem, it's a problem of warped human perception) that any wise person would probably have also dealt with at some point.

That is, what is the logical, wise thing to do is not necessarily always the humane thing to do. Sometimes doing the actual right thing will be the wrong thing to any "normal" person.

I have to think that Malthael, being formerly the Archangel of Wisdom, probably errs on the side of doing what should be done, regardless of the human element of it.

That's personally why I feel like Tyrael's sword probably couldn't harm him. The sword, presumably, should also lack this humane element that effectively is what leads Tyrael to attempt to harm him in the first place. That is, Tyrael perceives whatever Malthael is attempting to do as malicious. Not necessarily because it actually is malicious, but because it is likely inhumane.

The logical thing to do in order to rid the world of its demonic presence would in fact be to eradicate anyone who shares any lineage to the demons. Although it is inhumane, it is neither wrong nor evil. Not to say that most people wouldn't view it as being evil, but again, that does not make it actually so. That is why it also makes sense for him to now portray Death, seeing as death isn't necessarily evil either, though humans tend to associate negativity and "evil" with it. Certainly, there are "evil" ways to die or be killed, but it is not inherently evil in itself.

What I'm getting at here is that Malthael very likely is not "a bad guy." He is only "the bad guy" because Tyrael, the Nephalem, and the humans will likely see him as such. That does not make him necessarily unjust nor evil, despite the fact he may be viewed as such.

Here's an example:

You've got a sick pet. It has contracted something that can POSSIBLY be fixed with surgery. The pet is more than halfway through its life cycle, and the surgery is $1200. This is a normal pet, not some show dog worth millions. The chance of the pet surviving the surgery is let's say... 15%, and the pet will likely suffer continuously even if it succeeds. Let's assume you're not made of money and that the $1200 will actually matter. Though to be perfectly honest, that last detail does not matter where logic is concerned.

The element of what people consider to be "normal" for a person to do says... it's your pet. You have to take care of it and you cannot let it die. You must spend the $1200 on a procedure that probably will not work just because... well... it's your pet, your problem, and your responsibility. It SOUNDS noble, but it is not logical.

The wise thing to do? Do what you can to comfort the pet, and let it go when it goes. At best, have it put down when you notice it suffering. That $1200 you saved by doing the logical thing? You can get 3 or 4 new pets if you want. If not, well, you saved $1200. It SOUNDS cold, and to some people, somewhat evil; but that doesn't change the fact that it is the wise choice.

That seems to be the kind of problem that's going on with Malthael. The wiser you are, the more informed your decisions tend to be. The problem is, everyone else isn't as wise and informed as you are, hence they perceive your actions to sometimes be evil, even when they are in fact just and wise.
Edited by BadTeddy#1303 on 9/8/2013 4:47 PM PDT
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Community Manager
08/22/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Jortalus
Malthael seems more like a more neutral sort of character. He isn't strictly good or strictly evil; I believe his motive is to destroy all demons. It just so happens that the Nephalem are half-demons as well as half-angels. He didn't kill Tyrael because Tyrael is not a demon.


You've got a pretty good point! We'll have to wait for the expansion to get all of the details, but here is the basic premise for Malthael's motivation. The Lords of Hell are no longer a threat, and the Prime Evil has been defeated. Humans are the descendents of angels and demons, and are now the most powerful demonic force left. If Malthael can quickly strike them down, then the Eternal Conflict will be over, and the Angels will be victorious.
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09/09/2013 03:59 PMPosted by Grimiku
the Eternal Conflict will be over


Well then it's not Eternal, now is it?
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09/08/2013 04:43 PMPosted by BadTeddy
That seems to be the kind of problem that's going on with Malthael. The wiser you are, the more informed your decisions tend to be. The problem is, everyone else isn't as wise and informed as you are, hence they perceive your actions to sometimes be evil, even when they are in fact just and wise.


Seems to me a lot like Ozymandias from the Watchmen ;)
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I lost interest in the character the second he said the cheesy one liner, "No one can stop death."
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09/09/2013 04:28 PMPosted by DOWNFALL
the Eternal Conflict will be over


Well then it's not Eternal, now is it?


Just because it's called eternal doesn't mean it actually is. Plenty of countries have the word Democratic in their name, doesn't mean they are.
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Thats a pretty good premise Grimmeister, but one thing a bit disconcerting about the whole Malthael affair is that he was given the opportunity to wipe out the Nephalem when it was put up for vote by the Angiris council and he decided to abstain believing that our fate no longer mattered. Why the change of heart?

I actually don't believe his motivations are inherently evil, so it'd be interesting to see how things pan out in the expansion.
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His stance likely changed when the nephalem became powerful again.
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That's actually a good point, it would explain him going rogue after the destruction of the Worldstone.
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Lore
Anu, the source of almost everything execpt the pearl he lived in was bored.. He was thinking to make his own being perfect and thus came to realise that he needed to take away all the nasty things from himself, in that result he created Tathamet, a being in total opposite of Anu.

While they didnt get along, the fought and smashed themselves to bits and in their final blow they kinda exploded.. This was the creation of all worlds, stars etc.

Since Angels are from Anu's dust and demons are from tathamets ashes, they are bound in the rule of existance. They have always been there but in different shapes.

Nephalem on the other hand... Is a BONUS result of one demon and one angel getting together.

This means a lot of things.

1. Nephalems are outside of the galactic rules of creation.
2. Nephalems are closer to ANU and the perfect pearl in a paradoxian way.
3. If Nephalems are gone, the balance is restored.

Malthael just want to finish it all. Clear the world of nephalems means to correct the misstake of having them (us) here. By cleaning it up, it might be a fresh start for angels and demons alike, unless...

Malthael might have a plan to Spread His Wings Over All... Angels and demons alike to justify and reset all life -and- death into one single perfect pearl....
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But only the nephalem are from angels and demons and is why they have the powers they do. Humans were created by god right? So this does not make since to me at all. am i just missing something?
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Back in Diablo 2 Teryal said (in gossip) that Malthal roams the halls of padinioum searching for the meaning of life and death.
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09/11/2013 12:46 PMPosted by ShadowWraith
But only the nephalem are from angels and demons and is why they have the powers they do. Humans were created by god right? So this does not make since to me at all. am i just missing something?


The Diablo setting doesn't have a "god." The highest power in the High Heavens is the Angiris Council.

Humans in Sanctuary (The world in Diablo) came about due to angels and demons interbreeding. The first of these had incredible powers and were called Nephalem. I forget how it came about, but the Worldstone was created or attuned to block humans from having those powers. They started to return at one point in history - during the Sin War - but were forgotten as part of the process of convincing the Angiris Council to not wipe humanity out. With the destruction of the Worldstone, these powers are returning (hence the player characters).
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I always thought that fate would make for a better villain than wisdom.

Wisdom is inherently desirable. Whatever your goals, having Wisdom helps.

Fate has much more negative connotations linked to it. It can be your fate to fail at everything and die alone, for instance. Further, fate is the disillusion of choice - essentially a kind of enslavement.

I mean, the fallen angel bit is fine - After the psychotropic nonsense of the last few years that has all but dissolved the original roots of the series, getting back to some of the more classical Gothic concepts of Diablo's foundation is a welcomed change. But I do think that the targeting here is a bit off.
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