Diablo® III

Self-found mode

08/27/2013 08:39 AMPosted by Doctor
I say go ahead and give the SF players their own server/mode/whatever. I'm personally sick of having to kick them from every public game I play. You win SF nuts.


This actually made me laugh!

But your sentiments are exactly why "find the loot" players don't mix with "pay for loot" players.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9792719386
Self found mode please. This change alone would make the game fun for me again. Get it done.
You already have have a self-found mode. You want a "Look at my rags" mode. In fact, give them this "SF mode" so as I blaze past I can laugh at their pointless crusade.

If I am given a Ferrari or a Celica to drag race, I'll always take the Ferrari. You can win your Celica races, but you're still driving a Celica.

In case you don't understand SF mode = lesser mode. By all means give it to them, it will be easier to see who drives a Celica,


Hmmm... Drag race Ferrarri vs Celica. Well chances are a properly tuned celica would win. Case in point a Top Gear episode... where some nice high end European cars got owned against $1500 street machines in Vegas. :P Not meant for drag racing. Now Actual races... they'd have a chance.
Warning: Wall of text

08/27/2013 08:38 AMPosted by Strangelove
What makes me laugh about the self movement (and include me with this) is the fact that no one can agree on what self found is. I've been in groups that spend more time laying out the frame work for a session then actual fighting...Or at level 43 buddy shows up with a -17 lvl req weapon because he found it on his main 2 months ago.

Hang on, I was under the impression that SF had some unified idea of what SF mode entails. I guess the general idea of using what you pick up, but I guess there is more "hardcore" versions of it, like using things that only that character picks up, etc.. that might be getting a little too difficult for some. That's like vegetarian v vegan... one is doable, the other one is for the hardcore SF players.

I was having a little discussion about DDR v ITG (for those who don't know, DDR is Dance Dance Revolution. ITG is In the Groove, a clone of DDR, except it allows for custom charts) and it's very similar to this indecision with what's actually SF. For a game to be fair in any way, it needs to be standardized. That is, the game has to have strict rules that players adhere to. Looking to user created content means the game is either too easy or the players can't handle the content and start creating their own versions of the game to escape the reality of a difficult game.

Currently the rules are being stretched because of RMAH. Remove that, and you only have to deal with flippers. Creating your own rules to play your own way or with your friends is fine, but enforcing it on others is far too presumptuous.

SirRight
Thanks for linking those threads. I have read your proposal but not the Q&A just yet since it's more of a discussion that may lead back to SF players not really coming to an overall decision about how SF is defined.

The way I understand it, is no AH/RMAH/trading/drops.. so really, everything is account bound from spawn, not just pick up. Fair enough. That could very well be a few check boxes here and there on Blizzard's side. Increased drop rates.. I'm not too sure about. D3 has been going for 15~16 months (however long it is now) and they still haven't got itemization right. Improved itemization means with enough farming, everyone will be OP so it turns back into D2, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for us, but the game gets more boring faster.

A few of your proposals are getting a little outside of the scope of SF IMO, like limiting levels so people can't leech, etc.. even though some of them sound nice, it has nothing to do with SF and sounds more like game improvements so I'll just put them aside for now.

Separate stashes from non-SF character is fine and goes without saying really.

You mentioned each character will have a separate stash, blacksmith etc... is this per character or per SF account? My level 60 Barb can't find gear for my new Monk... both SF. Is this correct?

This identifier or SF mode... you mean on your profile page how HC characters have a red border? Is that what you mean by the halo thing? Because if you mean in game halos, then it's redundant since you'll already be in SF mode where everyone is SF... unless you want everyone to get halos?

You also touched down on rubberbanding and pinned the blame on server traffic... again, a little outside of the boundaries of SF so I will ignore.

So really, what you're after is no AH/RMAH/trading etc... and better drops. That's really the bottom line without getting into the specifics. Your reasonings really come down to this:

Please give us access to an additional style of play that has no trade, no picking up items someone has dropped, no access to auction houses; we would like a pure way to play together without fakers and cheaters, so that we have the original spirit of play that YOU intended.

What you have to understand is that you don't define what is "the original spirit of play", Blizzard does. If that includes AH, trading or whatever, it is what they intended. Yeah, they messed up pretty big on a lot of accounts, but it's what they originally intended. Pretty sure they didn't intend to lose over half of their player base from one single patch.

One thing you gotta do is stop calling AH users "fakers" or "cheaters".. just like how you don't like people using the "it's already in the game" line only to ignore them, people will do the same to you. "AH users" is probably more diplomatic.

Technically speaking, the AH users are using the tools that are available provided by Blizzard as a package called, Diablo 3. What that entitles you to is access to all parts of the game including AH. The simple fact is, a lot of players don't like AH and prefer to play SF because it's more rewarding when you clear levels, bosses, MPs, whatever.. because you know deep down, that you got through without having to purchase items from someone else. It's a personal achievement, not a game achievement.

If you really want to make it a game achievement then you gotta think, "How long will this take to implement? They've taken 15 months to fix itemization and they still haven't.."

For now, I'll stick to what I said earlier and push for better game balancing for classes, drops, etc... better servers for everyone, addressing lag and rubberbanding etc.. since these are technical issues that really need to be addressed. SF mode is really an elitist version of the game that fixes none of the many issues that already exist.. this is my reason why I find the topic so trivial, and after so many threads about it, so redundant.

Edit:
Misquoted Strangelove... fixed.
Edited by MrDuMa#1541 on 8/27/2013 10:04 AM PDT
I believe that a separate Mode of play would benefit the D3 community by separating the people who like to find or make all of their own items from those who just like to buy them.

A separate and totally optional (upon character creation) SFcore Mode of play would enable all the like minded players to better interact, form a stronger community, and possibly bring back many of the 12 million players who have quit the game. A stronger player base would provide more support for the sale of future expansions packs.

This new mode would in no way interfere with the existing player base but would breath new life into a great game!

The 12 million players that Blizzard drove away, mostly from the 1.02 -> 1.03 patch, rage quit because of the IAS nerf. A SF mode does nothing for them so suggesting that it might bring back some of the 12 million players is a little beyond optimistic.

Everyone here is pretty like minded. We all paid for this game and at least to some extent, we enjoyed it. As I said in the other massive SF thread on the front page, I'm neutral to the idea but I don't believe it's the answer in fixing the community. We all want the same thing.. a better playable game. Loot is a part of it but it shouldn't affect SF players anyway since AH/RMAH/trading/etc... doesn't affect them. They only use what they pick up or craft themselves, correct? What does that have to do with the random player who has little time but wants to play higher level content via his credit card? Absolutely nothing. Conversely, does that guy have anything to do with SF players?

If SF players want to play with their own limitations then that's fine. As many many others have already pointed out, they can do that right now without any need for another mode of play. The "optional" part already exists.

A separate mode is more work and time for Blizzard... work and time I would rather them put into better balancing of classes, more interesting content, loot 2.0, paragon 2.0, hell, give Australia a damn server already... anything that'll actually improve the game for both Blizzard and players.


Very few people rage quit over the IAS nerf. You need to realize that the vast majority of players are not hardcore paragon 500 chasers. By the time 1.03 rolled around the majority of the player base likely wasn't even 60.
08/26/2013 08:34 PMPosted by SirRight
This strawman argument has already been addressed in this thread.


Look when loot 2.0 hits pre expansion patch we will have smart drops, targeted legendary drops, guaranteed legendary drops from bosses for the first time beating them. When legendaries do drop they will be game changers. This alone will lessen the impact the AH has on the game.

Heck there could even be some changes to the blacksmith's recipes that could also help lower the impact the AH has on the game. Both together could lower the need of the AH.

Then add the Mystic in the expansion and we will see the need for this mode vanish. Her enchants will mean that players can quite easily take any piece of gear that they find in the world and take it from junk and make it into a decent piece of gear.

Players would not need self found mode for the purposes of finding gear. Which is what some players are saying right. No they are wanting it because they know if they do not get it they are playing on a server with other players that have better gear than they do. They do not like it that other players are better geared than they are.

News flash other players that use the game to it's full along with playing more than you do will always be better geared than you are it is that simple. The only way around that is for Blizz to gives us BiS gear with near perfect rolls on a silver platter just because we play their game.

You have the motives so incredibly wrong. Completely inverse of what they actually are, in fact.

What is lazy, is trucking over to the handy dandy AH for gear shopping. Also, evrey selfie knows that BiS gear in SF would be INCREDIBLY rare. Most players would never have any, and the people who did, may have 1 or 2 at best in the career of a character.

It would be a much harder mode than the cushiness that is AH mode.


You say that everyone that would use the SF mode would know that the BiS gear would be incredibly rare. Maybe those that are asking for it would know it. But that is not the whole audience it would draw. It would draw a whole host of other types of players. It would draw those that are tinfoil hatters that have all kinds of wild conspiracy theories like the following.

1. The AH has full control over the drop rate and quality based on what is in the AH.
2. Blizz changes the drop rate on the fly as needed based on what is in the AH.
3. Blizz is the only one posting the GG in the AH because the GG never drops for anyone.
4. Blizz increases the legendary drop rate and quality at the start of the patch but then drops it later on.

These player along with others that have just as wild if not wilder conspiracy theories would flock to SF mode just to prove that they are right. These are the ones that would leave pronto when they do not see a sea of beams of light where they are getting BiS with near perfect rolls.

Pre loot 2.0 will they would see that they are getting more junk. After loot 2.0 and the Mystic they would not really need it either because they could find their own gear. Because the AH would not be needed nearly as much as it is now. That is why this mode is not needed.

If such a mode was established you would have around 3 million flocking to it. But when the audience that I was mentioning earlier sees that they were wrong about their conspiracy theory and leave. The number of players using it worldwide would probably drop to 20,000. That would only take two weeks to happen. So Blizz would be wasting money and time on something that in the long run would only have around 20,000 players using it. What for because they do not like the fact that others have better gear than they do. So on that new server they can be the top dogs.
What's it to you if there is a new game mode I want? Nobody forces you to play it.


GAME MODE I WANT.

You are one in a million Blizzard game owners. Noone cares what you want.


So I can't ask for features I want? Do I need to get your approval first to ask for things that would increase my enjoyment of the game?

EDIT: Also, clearly you care about what I want, because you comment on it.
Edited by Aphyrax#1841 on 8/27/2013 10:42 AM PDT

SirRight
Thanks for linking those threads. I have read your proposal but not the Q&A just yet since it's more of a discussion that may lead back to SF players not really coming to an overall decision about how SF is defined.

The way I understand it, is no AH/RMAH/trading/drops.. so really, everything is account bound from spawn, not just pick up. Fair enough. That could very well be a few check boxes here and there on Blizzard's side. Increased drop rates.. I'm not too sure about. D3 has been going for 15~16 months (however long it is now) and they still haven't got itemization right. Improved itemization means with enough farming, everyone will be OP so it turns back into D2, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for us, but the game gets more boring faster.


Thank you for taking the time to read through the proposal, if more people did then they would have a greater understanding of how SF could be implemented into the game. You basically have the tenants of what a SFcore Mode would entail.

A few of your proposals are getting a little outside of the scope of SF IMO, like limiting levels so people can't leech, etc.. even though some of them sound nice, it has nothing to do with SF and sounds more like game improvements so I'll just put them aside for now.


Spot on! These kind of changes, a public game matchmaking system, would benefit all Modes of play. I and others do not want Blizzard to make a half-ash tree attempt at SF and want them to implement a complete system that would be very hard to abuse.

Separate stashes from non-SF character is fine and goes without saying really.

You mentioned each character will have a separate stash, blacksmith etc... is this per character or per SF account? My level 60 Barb can't find gear for my new Monk... both SF. Is this correct?


I suggest that each character is a separate instance and thus you can't share items between SF characters, but I and others would be happy to have a SF shared mode. Blizzard will be the deciding factor and just because I suggest a character only mode doesn't mean that a shared mode isn't better. Just a note: In Hardcore, your first character can find gems, money and items for all future Hardcore characters and this takes something away from the challenge (in my opinion).

This identifier or SF mode... you mean on your profile page how HC characters have a red border? Is that what you mean by the halo thing? Because if you mean in game halos, then it's redundant since you'll already be in SF mode where everyone is SF... unless you want everyone to get halos?


You bring up a valid point. It was a half-joke at the time and the halo could have complemented the wings that people who bought the Collectors edition, received. I'm am going to strike that out and replace it with a coloured font, say blue, like the red for Hardcore. Thanks!

You also touched down on rubberbanding and pinned the blame on server traffic... again, a little outside of the boundaries of SF so I will ignore.

So really, what you're after is no AH/RMAH/trading etc... and better drops. That's really the bottom line without getting into the specifics.


The better drops in only an option to be considered and Selfies have stated that no change in drop rates would be required. Loot 2.0 of course will benefit us as well as everyone else.

Your reasonings really come down to this:

Please give us access to an additional style of play that has no trade, no picking up items someone has dropped, no access to auction houses; we would like a pure way to play together without fakers and cheaters, so that we have the original spirit of play that YOU intended.


What you have to understand is that you don't define what is "the original spirit of play", Blizzard does. If that includes AH, trading or whatever, it is what they intended. Yeah, they messed up pretty big on a lot of accounts, but it's what they originally intended. Pretty sure they didn't intend to lose over half of their player base from one single patch.

One thing you gotta do is stop calling AH users "fakers" or "cheaters".. just like how you don't like people using the "it's already in the game" line only to ignore them, people will do the same to you. "AH users" is probably more diplomatic.


Good points. Not all AH users are fakers or cheaters but there have already been some forum haters stating that they would make it their mission to corrupt or destroy the new mode. I'll reword it. It is an old post (2012) and I have grown since then. Again, thank you.

Technically speaking, the AH users are using the tools that are available provided by Blizzard as a package called, Diablo 3. What that entitles you to is access to all parts of the game including AH. The simple fact is, a lot of players don't like AH and prefer to play SF because it's more rewarding when you clear levels, bosses, MPs, whatever.. because you know deep down, that you got through without having to purchase items from someone else. It's a personal achievement, not a game achievement.

If you really want to make it a game achievement then you gotta think, "How long will this take to implement? They've taken 15 months to fix itemization and they still haven't.."

For now, I'll stick to what I said earlier and push for better game balancing for classes, drops, etc... better servers for everyone, addressing lag and rubberbanding etc.. since these are technical issues that really need to be addressed. SF mode is really an elitist version of the game that fixes none of the many issues that already exist.. this is my reason why I find the topic so trivial, and after so many threads about it, so redundant.

Edit:
Misquoted Strangelove... fixed.


I have to respect your opinion; at least you made the effort to understand what we propose.
Personally I would prefer SF to share the stash with all my SF characters. The reason being, SF is about increasing the enjoyment from finding loot. If SF doesn't share between characters then most items I find will go to the vendor no matter how good since the current character cannot use them. This would diminish my enjoyment of the game again and thus be counter-productive.

An alternative would be to ensure SF characters only find loot they can use, but that would require bigger changes, and for some cross-over items that is hard to identify.
Someone once said that the customer is always right. We are the customers and we are ASKING for Blizzard to CONSIDER employing a SFcore Mode of play. Until they come out and definitely state it will never happen, we will continue to encourage them to incorporate it into the game.

Optional and separate hurts no one else.


I am afraid that it will hurt all if it is truly not needed. Because it will cost Blizz both time and money to give such a mode. Which would include both SC and HC as well. That is two separate servers that they have to make in order to get the job done. The time and money spent could be put into making other areas of the game better like loot 2.0, paragon 2.0 or even adding in the promised PvP system.
The "Self Found" argument, seems dumb. It's along the same lines as person complaining about (How people buy nice cars using a credit card) rather than buying a cheaper one with cash. Then trying to boycott credit cards, and trying to belittle other players on the basis of self found/self bought in my analogy. This is ludicrous, if you are self found, keep that to yourself, and if you are OP hero then who cares either way. No one cares, and if you don't care what others think, than why complain about Self Found if it already exists.

I just don't get it, then the word Self Found< became a definition term around here, only on the excuse for sucking.

(What if I found better stuff than I bought for my toons, what then? wouldn't that be super self found? Then sold it all for massive gold/rah, only to buy the same gear again or better for cheaper...

And you guys talk about Logic? Come on give me a break.
ok... how about now?


Can't we all just faceroll and like it?
It would be fun to see how a SF server (every drop is account bound) would work out. No trading allowed at all, you can't drop stuff for other players!

I guess Blizzard could do everyone a favor and launch these to avoid more unneccesary discussion about a non theme.

All you vegan selfies can then jump around in your own world.
ok... how about now?



Players would not need self found mode for the purposes of finding gear. Which is what some players are saying right. No they are wanting it because they know if they do not get it they are playing on a server with other players that have better gear than they do. They do not like it that other players are better geared than they are.


I'll stop you right there because the rest of your argument seems to hinge on this point.

I can't say that there aren't some Selfies that do feel this way but the majority just want an environment with a common ruleset that governs anyone playing in that Mode so that we are all playing the same way. We then have a community based on finding or making all of your gear, and can more easily be matched in public SF games.

As our own community, our gear will be important for us; a badge of honour in that everyone has earned it vice bought it. Also we will not have flippers, and it is unlikely we will have botters because they can't trade or sell the gear they find. If a botter happens then they will have to play solo until the rest of us catch up in 2 or 3 years (preposition assumes that a proper matchmaking system is in place for public SF games, based on level and/or DPS)
Someone once said that the customer is always right. We are the customers and we are ASKING for Blizzard to CONSIDER employing a SFcore Mode of play. Until they come out and definitely state it will never happen, we will continue to encourage them to incorporate it into the game.

Optional and separate hurts no one else.


I am afraid that it will hurt all if it is truly not needed. Because it will cost Blizz both time and money to give such a mode. Which would include both SC and HC as well. That is two separate servers that they have to make in order to get the job done. The time and money spent could be put into making other areas of the game better like loot 2.0, paragon 2.0 or even adding in the promised PvP system.


Blizzard is rich enough to afford the extra manpower to implement this. It may also sell additional copies of the expansion, which would offset the cost.

Given that the infrastructure for a separate rule set already exists, I don't see the cost of this as being prohibitive.


You are absolutely correct. SF is lesser mode. That is precisely the point. If everything is handed to you then nothing is worthwhile. The point of games is not to be as easy as possible.


No, it's to be as fun as possible.

Sometimes easy is fun.
Sometimes hard is fun.
Sometimes easy isn't fun.
Sometimes hard isn't fun.

It all depends on how they go about making the game hard. There's two distinct ways to do it..probably more, but for the purposes of illustrating this point, there's two.

By "Real Difficulty" I.E
Push this button in the sequence shown as accurately as possible.

-OR-

By "difficulty through annoyance" I.E:
Push this button 10,000,000,000 times.

I'll let you guess which one Blizzard is great at designing.
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